Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[francisdesales]

I totally agree.

And what about eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ? Doesn't the Bible say something about this, in reference to gaining eternal life??? If you FAIL to do this, what does Christ say will happen???


Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves John 6:53

I would think long and hard about what you are agreeing with - since HERE, we have an example of something you must DO - and failure to DO it means you have not gained life... Unfortunately for Alabaster, HE is going against what Christianity has taught for 2000 years and continues to teach to this day...

Even if you water down the meaning of Christ's words, you STILL must DO something and failure to do it means you have no life within you...

The idea that man is completely passive is a lame attempt to skirt responsibility for one's actions. God gives us the means to obey Him. So do so...

Regards

 

[Sam21]

I thought that John the Baptist said that the Baptism Christ would provide would be better and more powerful. Are you saying that Christian baptism is = to the Baptisms provided by John? Does this mean that the Scriptures are wrong - that Christ's baptisms are only 'as good as' John's???

Perhaps you could point out a verse from Scriptures that tell us that Baptism is "a symbol of conversion, nothing else"... What exactly is the necessity of this "symbol" if only one person is present, such as Philip and the Egyptian eunich? Why the need to pull over and immediately become baptised?

Regards[/QUOTE God gave water baptism as a symbol in the natural of a spiritual experience that cannot be observed in the natural,water baptism is a symbol to the person baptized by a natural act of cleansing that they were converted to God at that moment in time. God's point is obvious,one must be converted to God in a moment of time,so He gave us a physical act to express that conversion. The problem is that, like the bronze serpent,people have begin to have faith in the water as much or more than in Jesus Christ and water baptism has turned into a work that many believe makes them acceptable to God.

 

[warhorse]

And what about eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ? Doesn't the Bible say something about this, in reference to gaining eternal life??? If you FAIL to do this, what does Christ say will happen???


Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves John 6:53

I would think long and hard about what you are agreeing with - since HERE, we have an example of something you must DO - and failure to DO it means you have not gained life... Unfortunately for Alabaster, HE is going against what Christianity has taught for 2000 years and continues to teach to this day...

Even if you water down the meaning of Christ's words, you STILL must DO something and failure to do it means you have no life within you...

The idea that man is completely passive is a lame attempt to skirt responsibility for one's actions. God gives us the means to obey Him. So do so...

Regards

1 pet 3v14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism is picture of the spiritual baptism that takes place at salvation.

John 1v26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John1v30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19v1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

So We see that the baptism of John by water was inferior to that of the baptism with the holy spirit because they believed on christ.

 

[jasoncran]

I will continue to run the race, just as Paul did, for I still can be disqualified, as can you...

By remaining in Christ, that is our only chance for finishing.

Have you read my signature line? Why do you keep falsely accusing me of something I don't believe and have gone to great lengths to prove?

Regards

faith without works is dead. works without faith is dead.

show faith without works and i shall show thee faith by works.

alabaster and the protestants here,joe, if they actually thought out solo fide would agree.

its faith that inorder to be REAL must have works. if i tell my wife i love and never kiss her and make love to her and ad nauseum.yet is my love real or NOT?and so it with God!

 

[reba]

5 - Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities.

6 - No Bashing of other members. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.




I know it is a hard thing to do but be nice!

 

[Alabaster]

Excuses? I am pointing out Sacred Scriptures and the precedents for my point of view. Brushing them aside is not a response. It is, frankly, quite childish and speaks of your inability to respond intelligently.

While it is ordinary for adults to choose to respond to God's calling, it goes without saying that it is not done alone or in a vacuum. No one baptizes themselves. Nor does man decide without God's working within that man. Are you saying that God cannot work in an infant - when Christ clearly tells us "do not prevent them from coming to me", refering to children?

It is the Christian's responsibility to obey the command to be baptized.

The command is not for unbelievers, which infants are. Our extended responsibility is to bring them to Christ, to salvation early in life, but bringing them up in the 'nurture and admonition of the Lord'.

Ephesians 6:4b NLT
bring them up with the discipline and instruction that comes from the Lord.

Proverbs 22:6 NLT
Direct your children onto the right path,
and when they are older, they will not leave it.

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 NLT
And you must commit yourselves wholeheartedly to these commands that I am giving you today. Repeat them again and again to your children. Talk about them when you are at home and when you are on the road, when you are going to bed and when you are getting up.

Because an infant is baptised does NOT mean he cannot later re-affirm or CONFIRM his parents' decision to bring that child into the community of believers. Who said anything about 'short-circuiting' anything? What prevents the child from later confirming the decision of the parents???

Many people who were baptized as babies grow up outside the church, and enter adulthood with the false belief that they are already right with God by virtue of their infant baptism. I have heard many people say that when many Catholics have been asked, "Are you a Christian?" they invariably answer, "Well, I was baptized as a baby."

Infant baptism can serve to keep that baby, once older, to not respond to the invitation to invite Jesus into his/her life, because they think they already have Him.

You cannot confer salvation on ANYONE.

Don't we find the same idea in the Old Testament? How many infants of 8 days decide to get circumcised? And yet, that is the ancient practice dictated by God Himself, a sign of the Covenant and entrance into the community.

Baptism in a command only a Christian must obey for himself.

Perhaps your problem with infant baptism stems in your faulty understanding of salvation, equating it to gaining eternal life without the possibility of losing it. That is not what salvation means - it is the forgiveness of sins. It is a spiritual healing. And clearly, God does not need to await for someone to request such a healing, as I have already pointed out.

Regards

I am well aware of what salvation is. However, dunking babies isn't going to do anything for them but get them wet.

God does wait for everyone who will, to come to Him according to His plan. He is well aware that He has created babies with no ability to understand their fallenness. He has it well in hand. There is nothing we can do for anyone that will save them. It is a personal decision we all must make.

 

[Alabaster]

And what about eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ? Doesn't the Bible say something about this, in reference to gaining eternal life??? If you FAIL to do this, what does Christ say will happen???


Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves John 6:53

I would think long and hard about what you are agreeing with - since HERE, we have an example of something you must DO - and failure to DO it means you have not gained life... Unfortunately for Alabaster, HE is going against what Christianity has taught for 2000 years and continues to teach to this day...

Even if you water down the meaning of Christ's words, you STILL must DO something and failure to do it means you have no life within you...

The idea that man is completely passive is a lame attempt to skirt responsibility for one's actions. God gives us the means to obey Him. So do so...

Regards

Proper interpretation is so important!

John 6:53 NLT
So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.


Partaking in the Lord's Supper---just like water baptism---is only for believers. We already have eternal life within us. If we resist the Communion, it reveals a severe lack in our lives---possibly Christ Himself.

 

[francisdesales]

God gave water baptism as a symbol in the natural of a spiritual experience that cannot be observed in the natural,water baptism is a symbol to the person baptized by a natural act of cleansing that they were converted to God at that moment in time. God's point is obvious,one must be converted to God in a moment of time,so He gave us a physical act to express that conversion. The problem is that, like the bronze serpent,people have begin to have faith in the water as much or more than in Jesus Christ and water baptism has turned into a work that many believe makes them acceptable to God.

Baptism, like any other sacrament, is a visible sign of invisible grace. And so, yes, there is a symbolic meaning. Water has a symbolic meaning in the OT. It is used in creation AND it is used in destruction. The creation and the flood. The parting of the Red Sea is another biblical type of Baptism, being freed from the slavery of sin. Water washes us, physically. Thus, the Church has always used water to symbolize what is happening in the spiritual realm, the unseen.

Just as Naaman realized that it was not the water that healed, but God working THROUGH the water, so we, too, realize that God works THROUGH the visible sign of water. We don't have faith "in the water"! It is ordinary water. However, done in the context of baptism, we realize that God works THROUGH that visible water, washing our sins away, drowning the old man, and regenerating us in the lather of salvation, beginning our life of virtue in Christ.

Yes, it is necessary, since salvation does not occur until sins are washed away.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

faith without works is dead. works without faith is dead.

show faith without works and i shall show thee faith by works.

alabaster and the protestants here,joe, if they actually thought out solo fide would agree.

its faith that inorder to be REAL must have works. if i tell my wife i love and never kiss her and make love to her and ad nauseum.yet is my love real or NOT?and so it with God!

I think once people get beyond the cliches, they will agree with you, that one cannot be saved for eternal life by faith alone. There are numerous Scriptural verses that destroy that idea.

...Nothing else matters but faith working in love... (Gal 5:6)

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

It is the Christian's responsibility to obey the command to be baptized.

A person is not "Christian" UNTIL they are baptized. Whether that is the typical ordinary baptism we are accustomed to, or by another means that God finds acceptable, such as a "baptism by desire" or "baptism by blood", one STILL must be baptized, since it is through baptism that one is buried with Christ's Paschal Mystery. It is through Christ's blood that one is saved, freed from sins - and this happens only AFTER one is baptized.

The command is not for unbelievers, which infants are.

You have ignored the point of circumcision and the precedents set by Christ Himself that I have pointed out by merely giving me a cliche? Where is your Scripture citations that prove your point? Where does the bible say one must be an active believer to be baptised? I would agree that for an adult, that would be "ordinary", but there are exceptions, precedents set and established by God Himself. God is not bound by "water baptisms".

Our extended responsibility is to bring them to Christ, to salvation early in life, but bringing them up in the 'nurture and admonition of the Lord'.

I am not saying otherwise. Part of the infant baptism ritual is that parents and God-parents promise to bring up the child in the faith. Just as the Jews promised to bring up their child in the Jewish faith after circumcision. Your Scriptures merely back up what I am saying. Children brought into the faith are EXPECTED to be trained, JUST AS ADULTS!!!

Many people who were baptized as babies grow up outside the church, and enter adulthood with the false belief that they are already right with God by virtue of their infant baptism. I have heard many people say that when many Catholics have been asked, "Are you a Christian?" they invariably answer, "Well, I was baptized as a baby."

This comment is a non-sequitar, since ADULTS ALSO fall away from Christ. I have found that when people baptize their child, often times, it is a formality. They are hardly Christian themselves, perhaps in name only. This is the times we live in, lukewarm Christianity. But don't take for granted that God has planted a seed into the soil and that God Himself has the power to bring it to growth.

Infant baptism can serve to keep that baby, once older, to not respond to the invitation to invite Jesus into his/her life, because they think they already have Him.

I have already said that babies baptized can later confirm their baptism. We call this sacrament "confirmation", which, in the Latin rites, is done at around 8th grade.

You cannot confer salvation on ANYONE.

Nor on yourself...

Baptism in a command only a Christian must obey for himself.

Where is the Biblical warrant for that? Weren't Jews and Gentiles given this command? The command is to all people of good will.

I am well aware of what salvation is.

Then please explain it, so we are on the same page. It does have multiple meanings.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Proper interpretation is so important!

John 6:53 NLT
So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.


Partaking in the Lord's Supper---just like water baptism---is only for believers. We already have eternal life within us. If we resist the Communion, it reveals a severe lack in our lives---possibly Christ Himself.

My point was that the bible tells us we must "do" something to attain eternal life. It was directed at people who think we are passive robots where God does everything and we do nothing. It goes without saying that the Eucharist is for believers, which is why Catholics do not have open communion with people who do not believe the words of Jesus Christ.

Regards

 

[Sam21]

My point was that the bible tells us we must "do" something to attain eternal life. It was directed at people who think we are passive robots where God does everything and we do nothing. It goes without saying that the Eucharist is for believers, which is why Catholics do not have open communion with people who do not believe the words of Jesus Christ.

Regards

It reads like you are saying that you are making yourself saved by doing certain things such as communion...it does not work that way, you commit totally to GOD(not the church)you ask Jesus to personally save you, THEN God will forgive your sin and give you the indwelling Holy Spirit,now you have passed from death to life, it is a gift from God, of course you live for the Lord from that point on,however you are in the rest of God, no longer striving to be accepted.

 

[francisdesales]

It reads like you are saying that you are making yourself saved by doing certain things such as communion...it does not work that way

Yes, I realize it appears I am saying that I am saving myself. But in combating one extreme, one uses language that makes it appear that one condones the other extreme. Rest assured that I hold to neither extreme:

That I save myself

or

God does everything and I do nothing.

This ignores the Scriptural idea of synergy. There is an interaction between grace and nature that is not fully understood. However, to reject one (the later, that I am totally passive) does not mean that I accept the other extreme (I do it all myself). The correct alternative is "somewhere between".

My other posts on this thread, hopefully, explain more fully the point of view that I hold to.

you commit totally to GOD(not the church)

You cannot separate one from the other, my friend. The Body of Christ is joined to Its Head.

you ask Jesus to personally save you, THEN God will forgive your sin and give you the indwelling Holy Spirit,now you have passed from death to life, it is a gift from God, of course you live for the Lord from that point on,however you are in the rest of God, no longer striving to be accepted.

My views on this matter are similar enough... However, we are told to continue to run the race - not to be accepted - but because that is what the beloved does in the Lover.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Salvation is a free gift of God and we can do NOTHING to earn it.

I agree. You say we MUST "exercise faith", "accept Jesus" and repent in order to gain Eternal Life, and these things that we MUST do and the ability to DO them is a "Gift from God". How is this different from baptism, keeping the commandments, acts of charity, etc.? These are things I believe we MUST do the gain Eternal Life, but the will to do them and the ability are gifts from God. We must co-operate with this Grace, but the will and the ability to co-operate are gifts from God, that's why boasting is ruled out by Paul.

All goofing around aside, this is what the Catholic Church has taught for 2000 years starting with Paul. The Jewish concept of salvation was basically: God promises to justify us if we obey His laws. If we do A, B and C, He will justify us because He promised, therefore our WORKS are putting God in OBLIGATION to us, once we complete them, due to His promises. This is what Paul is reacting to in his letters.

What do you believe you have to do for salvation? Give scripture to prove yourself.

I believe ALL Scripture teaches about salvation. We are saved by baptism, keeping the commandments, charitable works...All done in faith, of course. I have given the verses to "prove myself" above. Now it's your turn.

You think we are saved by faith ALONE and that baptism is "symbolic". Give Scripture to "prove yourself".

 

[taromina2003]

Proper interpretation is so important!

John 6:53 NLT
So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.


Partaking in the Lord's Supper---just like water baptism---is only for believers. We already have eternal life within us. If we resist the Communion, it reveals a severe lack in our lives---possibly Christ Himself.

Alabaster! how are you dear? you are so blessed with much knowledge and I marvel at your tenacity! yes we disagree on the rapture theory but we so agree on darn near everything else as an admirer may I offer some biblical advice?

from Paul Corithians 8:1:1 Now concerning[1] food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. 2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.[2]
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating[3] in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged,[4] if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12 Thus, sinning against your brothers[5] and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

 

[dadof10]

Saved people are not referred to as sinners in scripture---they are saints, brethren, elect, the church.

You are saved. Do you commit actual sin, or are you of the opinion that once a person is saved, he ceases to commit actual sin?

You are one rude man!

Kidding around is "rude"? I don't run into many people on these boards with no sense of humor, I guess you are one. I will keep it straight with you so I don't offend.

I can back up everything I believe with Scripture,

This is getting sad...Where is the Scriptural backing for your contention that baptism is symbolic? Until you post the verse or admit baptism is more than mere symbolism, stop making the above claim. You are looking more and more foolish with each post.

but you cannot, nor do you care to, as you do not hold inspired Scripture to be authoritative.

I would post the laughing, pointing smilie guy, but I don't want to offend. This coming from you makes it even more hysterical.

Where have I ever said I don't hold Scripture to be authoritative? Where does the Catholic Church teach Scripture is not authoritative? You are really gripping...

We are called to repent---then be baptized. NO ONE EVER is called to be baptized who has not come to faith in Christ, nor is there any instance of it in the Bible---should we baptize such a person.

So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this: "As a sheep led to the slaughter or a lamb before its shearer is dumb, so he opens not his mouth. 33 In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken up from the earth." 34 And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus. 36 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" 37 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts (RSV) 8)

Please show me where the Ethiopian "accepted Jesus", or showed ANY kind of faith BEFORE baptism?

This is not normative or ordinary, but here is a CLEAR example of someone who was baptized, yet not "saved" by your definition.

Acting on the faith that COMPELS us to Christ is not a work we do. It is a work the HOLY SPIRIT DOES.

Agreed. See previous post.

Babies are positionally innocent before God. They do not require baptism, as they cannot grasp their standing as sinners and therefore CANNOT repent.

If they cannot repent, they cannot be saved, right? So, if a person dies before they can "accept Jesus", will they burn in eternal Hell? Does God send these "positionally innocent" people to eternal punishment?

Yes, it is UNBIBLICAL. No babies were recorded as needing baptism in Scripture. In every instance of 'households' it is noted that everyone believed---something an infant CANNOT do.

One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us. (Acts (RSV) 16)

As you can plainly see, Lydia was a believer, but NOWHERE does it say that in her household "everyone believed". You are reading your own theology into the text.

Baptism is for those who take the step of faith in Jesus Christ. It is a command they must obey personally---not have someone obey for you!!

As you can see by the two example above, you are mistaken.

 

[Scandinavian27]

Frankly, I believe that Francis has made the best arguments as of late. And I find this salvation by faith alone doctrine to merely be a cough out excuse for people who try to justify keeping some sins.

Scriptures I believe to be relevant:

• "Without holiness no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.'' - Romans 8:9

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." - Galatians 5:20

''Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.'' - John 15:4

''I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.'' - John 15:5-6

In conclusion: salvation by faith alone is the unbiblical doctrine!

 

[francisdesales]

Frankly, I believe that Francis has made the best arguments as of late. And I find this salvation by faith alone doctrine to merely be a cough out excuse for people who try to justify keeping some sins.

Scriptures I believe to be relevant:

• "Without holiness no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.'' - Romans 8:9

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." - Galatians 5:20

''Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.'' - John 15:4

''I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.'' - John 15:5-6

In conclusion: salvation by faith alone is the unbiblical doctrine!

I think people see it as an unwarranted "insurance policy". No matter what I do in the future, once I say the "magic words", God owes me salvation...

"Now that that is over, I can get on with my LIFE and not worry about going to hell. Die to self? Take the narrow path? Crucify the flesh? Why should I? What was Jesus and St. Paul thinking, didn't they realize that I only need to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior (whatever that "acceptance" means)???..."

It is pitiful, a ghastly skeleton of the real Gospel found in the Gospels of Jesus Christ, where you will rarely find a "sola fide" charecter venture to dwell... It is always twistings of Paul's words.

He was in a similar situation that I described above for myself. Sometimes, when you are fighting one extreme (Paul vs Jewish "works of the law" and obligating God to pay wages), a theologian will seem to take the OPPOSITE approach - and in Paul's case, to SEEM to identify with a "salvation by no works at all". As above, this forgets about a third idea, the idea that falls between two extremes, that in reality, Paul tells us we need BOTH and that the truth lies in the middle.

And thus, a common problem found on these threads is the false dichotomy presented by the usual cliches...

Faith v works
Nature v grace
God v the Church
communion of saints v Jesus
Bible v Sacred Tradition

Because one refutes one extreme does not mean we do not consider inserting "and" in the above cases...

Faith AND works
Nature AND grace
God AND the Church
Communion of Saints AND Jesus
Bible AND Sacred Tradition...

I hope this makes sense, but is something I have found as a common thing on these threads. When the bible supports both readings, we must fall somewhere between and accept the "AND", rather than an extreme. A person well versed in the 4 Gospels cannot possibly reconcile with a "faith alone" paradigm. It is only by elevating Paul to a "canon within a canon" and ignoring a number of his explanatory and exhortational verses could we possibly invent a "sola fide" idea towards salvation.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Frankly, I believe that Francis has made the best arguments as of late. And I find this salvation by faith alone doctrine to merely be a cough out excuse for people who try to justify keeping some sins.

Scriptures I believe to be relevant:

• "Without holiness no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.'' - Romans 8:9

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." - Galatians 5:20

''Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.'' - John 15:4

''I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.'' - John 15:5-6

In conclusion: salvation by faith alone is the unbiblical doctrine!

You'll find Francis makes the best case almost all the time.

Sent using my cellular telephone device via the interweb.

 

[dadof10]

You misunderstand what Jesus was doing. His blood had not been spilled yet. It is IMPOSSIBLE to receive eternal life by righteous works! It is IMPOSSIBLE to obey the Commandments!!

Every one of us without Christ are GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL COMMANDMENTS!

James 2:10 NLT
For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws.


You go against God and His plan by your contentions.

What does this mean? After Jesus' "blood was spilled" all His teaching changed? What He meant was "right NOW you can keep the commandments and enter unto Eternal Life, but after I die you must accept Me as personal Lord and Savior to enter Life"??? I'll wait to comment until you clear this up.