Born Again?

[farouk]

Baptism didn't change, it was Christians who began to deny baptism's purpose. That's what changed. You won't find a verse of Scripture that says baptism is an outward expression of an inward change. Baptism's role in salvation was understood until the time of the reformation. It was at this point that Christians decided baptism wasn't necessary for salvation. For the first 1400 years of the Church they understood baptism correctly.

...and its was also held that just as the money given by the so called baptised hit the coffers of the possessors of relics, so also the souls of the departed left purgatory for heaven.

The repentant thief on the cross wasn't baptised; it was his faith that was counted to him for righteousness.

 

[Atonement]

Baptism didn't change, it was Christians who began to deny baptism's purpose. That's what changed. You won't find a verse of Scripture that says baptism is an outward expression of an inward change. Baptism's role in salvation was understood until the time of the reformation. It was at this point that Christians decided baptism wasn't necessary for salvation. For the first 1400 years of the Church they understood baptism correctly.

Butch5-

Thank you for the reply

But the matter I'm no longer regarding

Thank you again though it's been noted


- LJ

 

[Butch5]

...and its was also held that just as the money given by the so called baptised hit the coffers of the possessors of relics, so also the souls of the departed left purgatory for heaven.

The repentant thief on the cross wasn't baptised; it was his faith that was counted to him for righteousness.

You don't know that he wasn't baptized. He could have been baptized by John or one of Jesus' disciples during His ministry. However, it's a moot point because the thief was saved under the old covenant not the new. Jesus was still alive when he forgave the thief, thus the new covenant had not yet begun.

 

[Butch5]

1 Peter 1:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, question are you jehova witness? if not you are real close

Again, Scripture that doesn't say Christians go to heaven. The inheritance is reserved in heaven that doesn't mean Christians will go there. Jesus said, I'm coming back and my reward is with me.

 

[farouk]

You don't know that he wasn't baptized. He could have been baptized by John or one of Jesus' disciples during His ministry. However, it's a moot point because the thief was saved under the old covenant not the new. Jesus was still alive when he forgave the thief, thus the new covenant had not yet begun.

It's hard to argue from silence that he was baptised, and then say the waters of baptism weren't essential then but they supposedly are now.

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God; it's not a substitute for the cleansing of the conscience by the blood of Christ through the eternal Spirit (Hebrews 9.14).

 

[Atonement]

...and its was also held that just as the money given by the so called baptised hit the coffers of the possessors of relics, so also the souls of the departed left purgatory for heaven.

The repentant thief on the cross wasn't baptised; it was his faith that was counted to him for righteousness.

farouk-

Thank you for the reply - I really didn't want to reopen this matter because it's not Scriptural unto salvation but I am just curious if this is all about salvation, then what about the people John baptized?

Didn't Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joesph, David, Solomon, Daniel, Isiah, Jeremiah etc all enter Heaven without being baptized? Was Paul baptized? Yet he was taken up to the third Heaven.. Did Jesus command ANY of His disciples to be baptized? Where does it say that even one was baptized? In fact Jesus NEVER baptized but His disciples did John 4:2 however He had a lot to say about repentance and that no man comes to the Father but through Him.. John 3:16 does not mention baptism unto salvation..

It's theological nonsense that Church's are now days teaching

Baptism of the Spirit and of water are both important to the believer but I'm not yet convinced that it is unto salvation. Not that I'm trying to be convinced but rather just trying to seek truth in Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

You forgot to put "RESERVED" in large letters also. I've given you numerous passages of Scripture that speak of man living on the earth "Forever." Here you're trying to force something on a passage that it simply is not saying it.

There are more passages that I didn't post. You keep asking if I'm a JW, I said no. I could start asking if you're a Gnostic since that's where this idea of going to haven comes from. The idea comes from Greek Philosophy which the Gnostics couple with Christian beliefs. The Gnostics were "Not" Christians as per the apostle John.

It's telling that there is such a numerous amount of passages speaking of dwelling on the earth forever and nothing about living in heaven found in the Scriptures. Yet Christians will cling to this doctrine till the cows come home even without a "SINGLE" passage of Scripture to support it.

 

[Butch5]

farouk-

Thank you for the reply - I really didn't want to reopen this matter because it's not Scriptural unto salvation but I am just curious if this is all about salvation, then what about the people John baptized?

Didn't Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joesph, David, Solomon, Daniel, Isiah, Jeremiah etc all enter Heaven without being baptized? Was Paul baptized? Yet he was taken up to the third Heaven.. Did Jesus command ANY of His disciples to be baptized? Where does it say that even one was baptized? In fact Jesus NEVER baptized but His disciples did John 4:2 however He had a lot to say about repentance and that no man comes to the Father but through Him.. John 3:16 does not mention baptism unto salvation..

It's theological nonsense that Church's are now days teaching

Baptism of the Spirit and of water are both important to the believer but I'm not yet convinced that it is unto salvation. Not that I'm trying to be convinced but rather just trying to seek truth in Scripture.

LJKP,

Not every passage of lists every element of salvation. It all depends on what the subject being discussed is. For instance, in Romans Paul says whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. He doesn't say anything about faith, repentance, forgiveness or anything else. In Romans 8 he says we are saved by hope, again, no mention of faith, calling on the Lord, etc. It all depends on what is being discussed. However, it we look at Pauls words in Romans 6 he ties baptism to the resurrection.

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrectionRom 6:3-5 KJV)

He also does this in his letter to Titus.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;​

(Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

The English is translated washing but the Greek actually says the bath of regeneration.

 

[Butch5]

It's hard to argue from silence that he was baptised, and then say the waters of baptism weren't essential then but they supposedly are now.

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God; it's not a substitute for the cleansing of the conscience by the blood of Christ through the eternal Spirit (Hebrews 9.14).

I didn't argue that he was baptized, it is you who is arguing that he wasn't, so the argument from silence is yours. However, the Scriptures are clear on baptism for the one who desires to listen to the Scriptures.

 

[farouk]

I didn't argue that he was baptized, it is you who is arguing that he wasn't, so the argument from silence is yours. However, the Scriptures are clear on baptism for the one who desires to listen to the Scriptures.

It would be false to argue that the thief on the cross may have been baptised, or that no one 'dare' deny that he was, just in case somehow he was, otherwise it's supposedly an argument from silence.

Clearly, baptism is a symbol; it does not replace the blood of Christ as the actual cleansing element as applied by the Spirit (Hebrews 9.14).

 

[BornAgain]

It would be false to argue that the thief on the cross may have been baptised, or that no one 'dare' deny that he was, just in case somehow he was, otherwise it's supposedly an argument from silence.

Clearly, baptism is a symbol; it does not replace the blood of Christ as the actual cleansing element as applied by the Spirit (Hebrews 9.14).

What does it matter? Jesus said he would be with Him in Paradise on that day. Regardless if he was baptized or not, he was under the Old Law and Jesus said it was so. Luke 23:43 (KJV) 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Butch5]

It would be false to argue that the thief on the cross may have been baptised, or that no one 'dare' deny that he was, just in case somehow he was, otherwise it's supposedly an argument from silence.

Clearly, baptism is a symbol; it does not replace the blood of Christ as the actual cleansing element as applied by the Spirit (Hebrews 9.14).

You simply can't argue that the thief wasn't baptized, you can't prove it.

You say baptism is a symbol, Peter said it saves. Paul said it connects the believer with the resurrection. Since, they were apostles their opinion take priority.

 

[farouk]

You simply can't argue that the thief wasn't baptized, you can't prove it.

You say baptism is a symbol, Peter said it saves. Paul said it connects the believer with the resurrection. Since, they were apostles their opinion take priority.

Peter says that it's the answer of a good conscience toward God, but it doesn't replace the blood of Christ, which cleanses the believer from all sin. This is the New Testament Apostolic teaching, not salvation by the waters of baptism.

 

[Butch5]

Peter says that it's the answer of a good conscience toward God, but it doesn't replace the blood of Christ, which cleanses the believer from all sin. This is the New Testament Apostolic teaching, not salvation by the waters of baptism.

Yes, water baptism is an appeal to God from a good conscience. If you don't make the appeal you probably won't get answer.

Your statement about apostolic teaching reveals much. Because it is the apostolic preaching that connects water baptism with salvation.

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,​

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, (Luk 1:67-78 KJV)

KJV Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.​

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. (Mar 1:1-4 KJV)

Salvation through the remission of sins. Water baptism for the remission of sins.

 

[farouk]

Yes, water baptism is an appeal to God from a good conscience. If you don't make the appeal you probably won't get answer.

Your statement about apostolic teaching reveals much. Because it is the apostolic preaching that connects water baptism with salvation.

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,​

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, (Luk 1:67-78 KJV)

KJV Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.​

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. (Mar 1:1-4 KJV)

Salvation through the remission of sins. Water baptism for the remission of sins.

Sorry, but the Zacharias verses in Luke that you quoted say nothing about baptism.

The verses about the baptism of John relate to John's disciples, not to the church today.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rr

Must we go through this again?,

Prove anything in the post wrong from scripture.

 

[savedbygrace57]

savedbygrace57 -

I like that username

Thank you very much for your input. I hope you are having a blessed evening

-LJ

What commenting on post 74 ?

 

[Atonement]

What commenting on post 74 ?

I just went back and read.. Yes that would be the comment

 

[twinc]

Born Again?

Is there an accepted understanding amongst protestant churches, of what Born Again means.

If not an accepted meaning of Born Again between all protestant, would people please share their understanding, and give what denominations belief they are sharing?

Christians being Christians as Christians are born again - as a non christian it was required of Nicodemus that he must be born again as a Christian - the thief on the cross declared and confessed and accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour - this is known as Baptism by desire - twinc

 

[Atonement]

Christians being Christians as Christians are born again - as a non christian it was required of Nicodemus that he must be born again as a Christian - the thief on the cross declared and confessed and accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour - this is known as Baptism by desire - twinc

twinc -

Welcome to the forums - :waving

I have heard about "Baptism by desire" but I'm not all that familiar with it. Would you be willing to elaborate a little about this? I'm interested in learning more in my walk with Christ and I think this would be beneficial to those that I may be able to help in my personal evangelism to the lost or those that are new in the Lord.

Thank you in advance

- LJ