CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[rogerg]

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

To those who turned back again we know the cause -unbelief and Jesus knew that beforehand stating, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them"
And we know the cause of Judas allowed falling away - prophecy fulfillment -He was noted as a thief while with Jesus so its not set in stone if he really had a change of heart in his ways. He was that way before he met Jesus. His outcome was his own doing not Gods.

But the others who were chosen really were Jesus's disciples and believed and knew Jesus was the Holy one of and from God. That He alone had the words of eternal life. The Christ the Son of God. And if tradition is correct they all suffered persecution and death for advocating Christ and refusing to back down or renounce their testimony about Jesus. I don't think that was all of themselves but by Gods grace and power they didn't fall away. So while some explore the opposite (possible to fall away) we see its possible for those chosen to remain faithful to the end. The same goes for Paul as well.

Jude
To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

As for myself I know Jesus and have had words from Him vis the Spirit in answer to prayers and I can not unknow that fellowship and testimony of the Spirit to my spirit. No power or spirit can separate me from His love for me. And I am far from alone in that. -Not possible to fall away as I see myself and I state that confidence based on Christs power and love not by arrogance. I know and understand that I am not free to sin and fear God to do so though I don't want to anyway.

As noted in the verses below, Jesus Christ alone is the Saviour. As Saviour, He is the one who does the saving
in all of its aspects, we do nothing but are only of its recipients.

[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno

Ive encountered Pentecostal Presbyterian hybrids. Happens. The Presbyterian finds the Pentecostal application of scripture and work in the community better than what mainline churches offer…

The occasional charismatic finds Calvinist doctrine helpful for interpreting scripture and building a Christian worldview.

Sad thing? The biggest determinants of where these people actually go to church seem to be tradition and social class. I think that’s the stratified world we live in sadly.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The wcf doesn't .but we'll pentacostals and their problems with that is another thread as they tend to be oneness ,nar and of not so flimsy they don't know the other two are heresies.

Often they tend to me big on emotional experience over the God they claim .they will sing for hours and have preaching for an hour .

The Spanish speaking church I mention doesn't do that .

I love the charismatic church, but as you say they are rift with corruption, both morally and doctrinally. I started out in it when I first got saved in 1986 and loved it before it was utterly corrupted somewhere in the 90's. What I'm looking for now is a small congregation that believes in the gifts of the Spirit without that being the foundation of their existence, but rather the tools God has given his people to accomplish the much higher goal of being transformed into the image of Christ in daily living.

 

[Randy]

As noted in the verses below, Jesus Christ alone is the Saviour. As Saviour, He is the one who does the saving
in all of its aspects, we do nothing but are only of its recipients.

[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

The anointing in me leads me to state, "as far back as my memory goes I have believed in and loved Jesus" not I was chosen beforehand to believe in Him.

In examining my beginning I note I once, when very young, had faith in a Santa Clause though I never prayed to Santa nor worshipped Santa. Nor did such come from God. Likewise from my beginning those who steered me to Jesus as in those who sowed the good seed had a important role in my faith in Jesus which was of Man. Granted it is of God to make that seed grow it is a important role to sow the good seed which is of man. Its not about all prechosen. I think we all agree God makes the "good" seed grow. And Satan is the one who sows the weeds.

grace not by works
Jesus purchased me for God by His blood. That is not of me and such sanctification is purely by Gods grace, (the one who loved the world to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.)

Jesus-Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge "before my Father in heaven."

 

[jasonc]

I love the charismatic church, but as you say they are rift with corruption, both morally and doctrinally. I started out in it when I first got saved in 1986 and loved it before it was utterly corrupted somewhere in the 90's. What I'm looking for now is a small congregation that believes in the gifts of the Spirit without that being the foundation of their existence, but rather the tools God has given his people to accomplish the much higher goal of being transformed into the image of Christ in daily living.

They exist ,I know a few

 

[jasonc]

I love the charismatic church, but as you say they are rift with corruption, both morally and doctrinally. I started out in it when I first got saved in 1986 and loved it before it was utterly corrupted somewhere in the 90's. What I'm looking for now is a small congregation that believes in the gifts of the Spirit without that being the foundation of their existence, but rather the tools God has given his people to accomplish the much higher goal of being transformed into the image of Christ in daily living.

Instead of offices of glory for the reciever .the gifts are For God not our Glory . We tend to forget that .

Nor is it being witch like as the nar says .it's power to be used By God to grow his church .

 

[hawkman]

I love the charismatic church, but as you say they are rift with corruption, both morally and doctrinally. I started out in it when I first got saved in 1986 and loved it before it was utterly corrupted somewhere in the 90's. What I'm looking for now is a small congregation that believes in the gifts of the Spirit without that being the foundation of their existence, but rather the tools God has given his people to accomplish the much higher goal of being transformed into the image of Christ in daily living.

Try a Pentecostal Church, perhaps the Assemblies of God, or Elim Foursquare.
.

Another suggestion is The Church of God (Cleveland TN ) . https://churchofgod.org/

 

[jasonc]

Another suggestion is The Church of God (Cleveland TN ) . https://churchofgod.org/

It depends .I know that locally .the church closest to me whose pastor took over for one who stole money from the church and was simply transferred despite breaking irs laws on matching taxes to employees and also buying furniture on that church credit card for his house and not repaying it and other things.

The pastor now said he prefers not to tithe to the main church .funny I was just looking at the old church history .

 

[hawkman]

It depends .I know that locally .the church closest to me whose pastor took over for one who stole money from the church and was simply transferred despite breaking irs laws on matching taxes to employees and also buying furniture on that church credit card for his house and not repaying it and other things.

The pastor now said he prefers not to tithe to the main church .funny I was just looking at the old church history .

True, it does depend . My church once had problems with the pastor a lot like what you described , a very unhappy situation to say the least .

 

[Randy]

It depends .I know that locally .the church closest to me whose pastor took over for one who stole money from the church and was simply transferred despite breaking irs laws on matching taxes to employees and also buying furniture on that church credit card for his house and not repaying it and other things.

The pastor now said he prefers not to tithe to the main church .funny I was just looking at the old church history .

A mans job is not a reflection of his righteousness. Cornelius was a Roman centurion and he was a worshipper of God who "gave" to the poor. God was pleased with him and chose him to know Christ. Judas helped himself to the collection purse while he was with Jesus and Judas was called a thief. That could not have pleased God and I believe that fault and unrepentant attitude of his own heart, (at that time), really kept him from knowing Jesus even though he walked with the Lord. If he was like the other 11 he would have felt shame for his past sins. Not one who continues in such acts. A wolf in sheep's clothing. Outside like a whitewashed tomb but inside full of dead peoples bones.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because he plainly told us what he has predestined.

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son

He already knows ahead of time who will believe and who won't believe, and the destiny of those who will believe is that they be conformed to the image of Christ. It has been determined ahead of time that that's what's going to happen to those chosen/elected by grace through faith, not works.

Agreed.
Predestination is mentioned in the NT
and it means HOW not WHO.

 

[GodsGrace]

You mean if it's God's will?

LOL
Yes.
NOTHING happens unless God's allows it to happen.
But for the calvinists reading along:
ALLOWING is different than PREDESTINATING.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering ,

Here's some other food for thought.

In the Parable of the Sower who, or what, decided the soils would be the kind of soils that they are shown to be? Reformists, of course, say God. What say you?

You're using Mark 4:13...
13Then Jesus said to them, “If you can’t understand the meaning of this parable, how will you understand all the other parables?
14The farmer plants seed by taking God’s word to others.
15The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message, only to have Satan come at once and take it away.
16The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy.
17But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.
18The seed that fell among the thorns represents others who hear God’s word,
19but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life, the lure of wealth, and the desire for other things, so no fruit is produced.
20And the seed that fell on good soil represents those who hear and accept God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

The seeds were scattered all over.
Just as the NT teaches that this is what Jesus wanted:
Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:15 Jesus said to go into all the world and preach and teach what He taught.
IOW, scatter the seeds EVERYWHERE.

Then Jesus explains that it depends where the seeds fall for them to take effect.
Where they fall represents our heart.
It depends HOW we understand the gospel for it to take root in our lives.
Some hearts can accept God's word and calling,
and some cannot.

It does NOT state anywhere in Jesus' explanation that it is GOD that decides where the seed (word) is to fall.
It shows that it falls everywhere.

I'm convinced that understanding God's work in the world is best understood as that of a husbandman working the soil of the earth.

Mark 4:13
13Then Jesus said to them, “Do you not understand this parable (of the Sower)? Then how will you understand any of the parables?

Does he determine the quality of the soil ahead of time as Calvinists claim? Or does his work in the fields of the world reveal the quality of the soil, realizing whatever potential it may have by sowing and watering it?

If by working the soil of the earth you mean that God's grace falls on all and He is always the first to make the move and is always calling...then, yes, I agree with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

God let's us self destruct and used that to save us or correct us.

I agree that God could let us self-destruct.
Romans 1:24a
24So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.

 

[GodsGrace]

lol NO the apostolic doctrine No trinity only baptize in Jesus name finial salvation being baptized in Jesus name . if not mistaken speaking in tongues evidence your saved... i could be wrong on that apostolic Pentecostals aka one ness doctrine

Oh my goodness!
No!
I don't believe any of that.

 

[jasonc]

A mans job is not a reflection of his righteousness. Cornelius was a Roman centurion and he was a worshipper of God who "gave" to the poor. God was pleased with him and chose him to know Christ. Judas helped himself to the collection purse while he was with Jesus and Judas was called a thief. That could not have pleased God and I believe that fault and unrepentant attitude of his own heart, (at that time), really kept him from knowing Jesus even though he walked with the Lord. If he was like the other 11 he would have felt shame for his past sins. Not one who continues in such acts. A wolf in sheep's clothing. Outside like a whitewashed tomb but inside full of dead peoples bones.

You missed the point .
If a pastor lies and steals abs commits crimes he Shouldn't be simply moves to another church but defrocked .the board of elders confronted him and they forgive him as he relented but then it was found out he didn't change .they asked that he be defrocked and a new pastor sent . The bishops of the state simply moved him .

That's what Paul would have done ?

I read revalation fir both a study and devotion and Jesus warned about removing his candle stuck and coming judge a church over idolatry and one the warnings was over irc money .

 

[jasonc]

I agree that God could let us self-destruct.
Romans 1:24a
24So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.

The use of Romans isn't the verse for that.that one you posted is for the the hardening of man's heart to judgement.

Even the plaques were not a judgement .it's said I'm not judging you but showing you my power .

Those were warnings .a better verse was Paul saying allowing one to be turned to Satan so that he may learn while his flesh is destroyed .

Exodus 9 15 I believe he said that .he could wipe Egypt out .

 

[Randy]

You missed the point .
If a pastor lies and steals abs commits crimes he Shouldn't be simply moves to another church but defrocked .the board of elders confronted him and they forgive him as he relented but then it was found out he didn't change .they asked that he be defrocked and a new pastor sent . The bishops of the state simply moved him .

That's what Paul would have done ?

I read revalation fir both a study and devotion and Jesus warned about removing his candle stuck and coming judge a church over idolatry and one the warnings was over irc money .

I think a more careful selection process would be prudent from among those you know are of the faith by years of association. Unfortunately in this day and age looking elsewhere on the outside among those you don't know is common practice. Clearly that man should NEVER have been offered any leadership role. A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. I would have voted to remove him and bar him from any future leadership roles and would have involved law enforcement for his "criminal" activity. One who continues to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth should expect judgment. Were not judge those outside the church but inside the church is a different matter.

 

[jasonc]

I think a more careful selection process would be prudent from among those you know are of the faith by years of association. Unfortunately in this day and age looking elsewhere on the outside among those you don't know is common practice. Clearly that man should NEVER have been offered any leadership role. A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. I would have voted to remove him and bar him from any future leadership roles and would have involved law enforcement for his "criminal" activity. One who continues to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth should expect judgment. Were not judge those outside the church but inside the church is a different matter.

Any pastor or person can do this .

The problem is not that the pastor fell but how the bishop handled it.

I know of an Anglican father who committed adultery with another's fatters wife and was defrocked .he was an army chaplain and well he likely lost his military career and his wife divorced him .
The other man after seeking counsel amicablely divorced his wife .

Sad but that father sinned but the wardens were right to defrock him .

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It does NOT state anywhere in Jesus' explanation that it is GOD that decides where the seed (word) is to fall.
It shows that it falls everywhere.

If it falls everywhere, why did it take many years before it fell in my soil?