This is a poorly worded question. The issue has never been whether God has ceased to perform miracles, and I'm sure that no one would argue against the idea that God continues to perform miracles. The issue is whether the Holy Spirit continues to bestow the gift of miracles or healing to individuals.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?
- Thread starter godsquadgeek
- Start date
Grudem's position is that "when perfection comes" in 1 Cor 13:10 and "shall see face to face" in v.12 both refer to the Lords' return.
There is another legitimate understanding of these 2 phrases. That is; the completion of the canon of Scripture. At that time, we have the completed Word of God to mankind. We are not to add anything to God's Word. God is fully revealed to us (as much as He wants us to see) through His written Word and Living Word.
What was the obvious reason for these specific gifts at the beginning of the church age? Prophesy was to "fill in the gaps" regarding edification of believers for what hadn't been written yet (canon hadn't been completed). Tongues had the same purpose, per 1 Cor 14:4,5,9,26.
So, "perfection" can easily be understood as completion of the canon. These various gifts were to carry the early church through the transition until the canon was completed.
So, some of the gifts were temporary. Not necessary for the entire church age.
Consider Rom 12:6-8
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith;
7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach;
8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
It should be clear that none of these gifts would be unnecessary when the canon was completed. They remain in constant need and use throughout the church age. But not so with the other temporary gifts, being rendered unnecessary when the canon wa completed.
Jim Parker
Member
That is a BIG problem.
Very well said.
Also, the neuter gender of 'the perfect' throws a cog in the wheel for 'the perfect' to mean the Lord.
Paul has no subject before the adjective 'the perfect', so 'the perfect' becomes the subject. So all we have is context to figure out what 'the perfect' is. And being the neuter gender.........'the perfect' has to be a THING. Because if Paul meant the Lord Jesus Christ, 'the perfect' would have been masculine........because there was no subject mentioned before "the perfect".......It makes 'the perfect' the subject.......and it would be masculine gender if 'the perfect' was Jesus Christ.
'The perfect'/τέλειος (teleios) Is used in most cases for a MATURE/COMPLETE believer. How do we become mature or complete believers? Through studying His COMPLETE word and not adding or taking away a jot. His word has all we need to become complete/mature believers.
New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
New International Version
Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults(perfect/complete/mature/τέλειος (teleios).
In context, if the perfect is the Lord Jesus Christ and we only have the partial at this time...........we would never be asked to advance and become complete in our faith. We would be hamstrung from the start and never be able to be complete in the faith if all we have is a 'part' of what we need.
These are some interesting verses, with some very interesting similarities to 1 Cor13
Eph 4~~11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Very well said!! Thanks for the exegesis.Very well said.
Also, the neuter gender of 'the perfect' throws a cog in the wheel for 'the perfect' to mean the Lord.
Paul has no subject before the adjective 'the perfect', so 'the perfect' becomes the subject. So all we have is context to figure out what 'the perfect' is. And being the neuter gender.........'the perfect' has to be a THING. Because if Paul meant the Lord Jesus Christ, 'the perfect' would have been masculine........because there was no subject mentioned before "the perfect".......It makes 'the perfect' the subject.......and it would be masculine gender if 'the perfect' was Jesus Christ.
'The perfect'/τέλειος (teleios) Is used in most cases for a MATURE/COMPLETE believer. How do we become mature or complete believers? Through studying His COMPLETE word and not adding or taking away a jot. His word has all we need to become complete/mature believers.
New American Standard Bible
but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
New International Version
Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults(perfect/complete/mature/τέλειος (teleios).
In context, if the perfect is the Lord Jesus Christ and we only have the partial at this time...........we would never be asked to advance and become complete in our faith. We would be hamstrung from the start and never be able to be complete in the faith if all we have is a 'part' of what we need.
These are some interesting verses, with some very interesting similarities to 1 Cor13
Eph 4~~11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
godsquadgeek
Member
Which question? A question that enables ministries to see miracles and to seek the spirit in a sensitive way, more than before?
Traveling teacher
Member
I believe the problem i have with a cessastionist view is
Not that tongues and prophecies have ceased only...but
Also the voice of God has ceased from talking to His people in a personal way......
As He spoke in the 1st century......
The voice that spoke with Paul and all the apostles by the Holy Spirit in the NAew Testament.....
Most cessationists I have met believe God only speaks through His written word today!!!!
Not that tongues and prophecies have ceased only...but
Also the voice of God has ceased from talking to His people in a personal way......
As He spoke in the 1st century......
The voice that spoke with Paul and all the apostles by the Holy Spirit in the NAew Testament.....
Most cessationists I have met believe God only speaks through His written word today!!!!
The "perfect" being the "completion of the canon of Scripture" is a very weak position, as it doesn't fit the context.
1Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (ESV)
The best fit for the context is the Lord's return, but that does not mean it necessarily refers to Jesus himself. It likely refers to everything pertaining to his return--the complete reign of his kingdom, the eternal state of believers, the life to come, etc. Perhaps even sooner for those believers who have died.
"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face." How does this fit the completion of Scripture? Seeing face to face is something that happens from one person to another, not from one person to a text, is it not?
"Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." How is Paul only going to know fully when the canon of Scripture is complete? Did he not know more fully once he died and went to be with the Lord? Is it the canon of Scripture that fully knew Paul? Who has fully known us and just how fully have they known us?
More importantly, who, in the entire history of Christianity, has known fully, "even as [they] have been fully known?" Similarly, who has ever not seen as "in a mirror dimly"? Do you think we see perfectly now?
Please show in Scripture where both prophecy and tongues were to '"fill in the gaps" regarding edification of believers for what hadn't been written yet'. The verses from 1 Cor. 14 do not show what you are claiming they show.
The original question of this thread of course. Cessationism.
When I believe the Father is all powerful and does as he wills for the greater good of his creation, I cannot then say that he would never speak to his created in this age. Nor can I say he would not allow miracles. Nor speaking in tongues.
The Father's word says His thoughts are not like unto our own thoughts. And his ways are not like our ways. How then can I think I know what the Father will not ever do again in this matter of what ceases as his demonstrative powers amid his creation?
Has the Holy Spirit ceased to move in those of faith...........no!
Has God ceased to speak from Heaven................no!
Has Jesus quit sitting at the right hand of the Father...............no!
Has the true Church of God been taken up yet...................no!
So the gifts of the Holy Spirit are just alive today as they were when the Disciples were given them.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Has God ceased to speak from Heaven................no!
Has Jesus quit sitting at the right hand of the Father...............no!
Has the true Church of God been taken up yet...................no!
So the gifts of the Holy Spirit are just alive today as they were when the Disciples were given them.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
So all of us will remain babes in Christ/a child and never reach maturity because we only have a "part" of what we need until Christ returns?
So in 1 Co 13:11 Paul is telling us that we think like children, speak like children, reason like a child and when Christ returns( the perfect) we can finally give up childish things and become mature?
The context carries MUCH, MUCH weight that "the perfect' is the completed canon. Because we are admonished to be complete/mature/perfect in the faith. Christ would never ask us to grow to spiritual maturity if we only know a 'part' and remain a babe until His return.
Jim Parker
Member
sigh
You have just described a Gnostic.
A Christian becomes perfect by becoming a perfect reflection of Jesus Christ.
Eph 4:11-15 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
It's not about knowing. It's about doing.
Please share precisely how this remark is Gnostic.
gr8grace3 said: ↑
'The perfect'/τέλειος (teleios) Is used in most cases for a MATURE/COMPLETE believer. How do we become mature or complete believers? Through studying His COMPLETE word and not adding or taking away a jot. His word has all we need to become complete/mature believers.
Hope your day was good Jim.
The other view is the coming of the Lord. The Lord is the Living Word, the Bible is the written Word. What's the difference? Paul called Scripture the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:16
The view is just as strong as referring to the Lord Himself. Esp so since the only gifts of the Spirit noted in 1 Cor 13:8 are about gifts that fill in the gaps until the canon is completed.
Because we see the Lord Himself in Scripture.
not necessarily. We see Jesus Christ in Scripture. We do see Him face to face when we look into Scripture.
I believe they do show that.
And gr8grace3 made this point in post #25:
Also, the neuter gender of 'the perfect' throws a cog in the wheel for 'the perfect' to mean the Lord.
Paul has no subject before the adjective 'the perfect', so 'the perfect' becomes the subject. So all we have is context to figure out what 'the perfect' is. And being the neuter gender.........'the perfect' has to be a THING. Because if Paul meant the Lord Jesus Christ, 'the perfect' would have been masculine........because there was no subject mentioned before "the perfect".......It makes 'the perfect' the subject.......and it would be masculine gender if 'the perfect' was Jesus Christ.
'The perfect'/τέλειος (teleios) Is used in most cases for a MATURE/COMPLETE believer. How do we become mature or complete believers? Through studying His COMPLETE word and not adding or taking away a jot. His word has all we need to become complete/mature believers.
It's difficult to argue against grammar.
This hasn't been the debate. It's the 3 noted gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 13:8. Not all of the gifts.
Jim Parker
Member
Again: It's not about knowing. It's about doing.
Are we complete in Christ and have all the knowledge of the written word, no, so the greatest gift is love, 1 Corinthians 13:13, which is greater than all the gifts of the Spirit. Charity supersedes all the gifts and makes them a little less important as prophecies, tongues and knowledge is all done in partial understanding, but not in full and that which is in part when Christ returns will be known in full and no longer needed.
Jim Parker
Member
There is no expiration dates on any of those gifts.
Jesus said: Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Jhn 14:12
There's no expiration date on that either.