Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?

[ezra]

echo again feelings are getting up lines are being drawn one side speaks in tongues other side tongues are ceased... by one scripture which does not say when they was or were ..my self i have no idea so those who use tongues make sure it is of God.. those who do not pray for them

 

[for_his_glory]

There is no expiration dates on any of those gifts.
Jesus said: Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Jhn 14:12
There's no expiration date on that either.

exactly

 

[gr8grace3]

Again: It's not about knowing. It's about doing.

I agree on the basic level. And I don't believe your going to find anyone here that would disagree.

But a brain surgeon KNOWS what he's DOING before he cracks the coconut.

Most believers are 'doing' and don't 'know' a thing(including me lots of times).........making it.........wood,hay and stubble.

1 Cor 3~~12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[gr8grace3]

Has the Holy Spirit ceased to move in those of faith...........no!
Has God ceased to speak from Heaven................no!
Has Jesus quit sitting at the right hand of the Father...............no!
Has the true Church of God been taken up yet...................no!

Not one person here is going to argue this.

What is in question are the gifts that were given temporarily to teachers, evangelists. These people could AT WILL walk up to someone and heal blindness,deafness,paralysis. They had the gift. They could have walked into our hospitals and healed EVERY single person in the hospital. They had the gift. But they ceased when the Word was complete.

Paul left people sick, whom he loved, because the supernatural gifts were ENDING and the WORD was close to being complete.

2 Tim 4:20~~New American Standard Bible
Erastus remained at Corinth, but Trophimus I left sick at Miletus.

Paul did not just leave Trophimus sick and on his own. Paul had the revelation that we MAY suffer for Christ and bring Him Glory through our suffering.Paul undoubtedly left Trophimus with Gods word and a solid understanding of how we will suffer for Christ if we are mature.

Trophimus............was a mature believer.........Paul left him sick, because Trophimus UNDERSTOOD and was an ADULT/COMPLETE/MATURE believer.

 

[ezra]

What is in question are the gifts that were given temporarily to teachers, evangelists. These people could AT WILL walk up to someone and heal blindness,deafness,paralysis. They had the gift. They could have walked into our hospitals and healed EVERY single person in the hospital. They had the gift. But they ceased when the Word was complete.

i believe in divine healing not divine healers even benny hinn who i am skeptical of will say its not him .

 

[FreeGrace]

Are we complete in Christ and have all the knowledge of the written word, no, so the greatest gift is love, 1 Corinthians 13:13, which is greater than all the gifts of the Spirit.

First, we ARE "complete in Christ". The Bible says so. 2 Pet 1:3 - His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

And until the canon was completed, we didn't have "all the knowledge of the written word", which is my point. When Paul wrote 1 Cor 13:8, the canon had not been completed; thus the necessity for the 3 special communication gifts of the Spirit: tongues, prophecy and knowledge.

When the canon was completed, these gifts specifically are no longer required.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no expiration dates on any of those gifts.

1 Cor 13:8 indicates otherwise, for those 3 gifts.

 

[FreeGrace]

echo again feelings are getting up lines are being drawn one side speaks in tongues other side tongues are ceased... by one scripture which does not say when they was or were ..my self i have no idea so those who use tongues make sure it is of God.. those who do not pray for them

For those who speak in tongues, please memorize 1 Cor 14 and make sure an interpreter is present whenEVER tongues is spoken in public. When speaking in tongues in private, just remember what Paul said about that:
1 Cor 14:4 - Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. iow, no benefit to others.
v.5 - I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
v.9 - So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. iow, no profit to others.
v.12 - So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
v.14 - For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

iow, the speaker has no idea what they are praying when praying in a tongue.

 

[FreeGrace]

i believe in divine healing not divine healers even benny hinn who i am skeptical of will say its not him .

These divine healers will say whatever their audience wants to hear. God used people during the transition to the church age to demonstrate God's power so that people would take notice. Even Jesus appealed to His miracles when addressing Pharisees:
John 10:38 - But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

Today, God still performs miracles. He just doesn't need people to do what He alone can do. He heals directly.

 

[gr8grace3]

i believe in divine healing not divine healers even benny hinn who i am skeptical of will say its not him .

But what do they promote in reality?.........Themselves and some type of divine power. For the most part, these types of ministries point to and promote themselves and their "supernatural" abilities.....but most are smart enough to say," But it's not me and about my gifts." To cover their butts.
But their actions speak so loud that we can't hear what they say.

In the early church(before all of Gods word was in written form) the tongues,prophecy and knowledge pointed to and promoted truth, His truth. They did not promote the fella and his dog and pony show.

John 16:4~~New American Standard Bible
"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Bro you really cant pick and choose and cut and paste these gifts.....
these 3 gifts are listed as your cessationist view
1. tongues
2. prophecy
3. knowledge

focus on the gift of KNOWLEDGE
listed again in ! corinthians 12:8
knowledge and wisdom are listed together....

Wisdom is like wise counsel.......
Knowledge is like understanding scripture as it applies to a specific circumstance!!!!

You would have to baically say all Bible Teachers are false!!!!!!

If you throw out knowledge.......
then you also gotta throw out WISDOM......

so you would have to say all Christian Counselors are false...
all marrriage Counselors are done away with!!!!
you would also have to say Wise counsel from Pastors is False.....

 

[gr8grace3]

Bro you really cant pick and choose and cut and paste these gifts.....
these 3 gifts are listed as your cessationist view
1. tongues
2. prophecy
3. knowledge

focus on the gift of KNOWLEDGE
listed again in ! corinthians 12:8
knowledge and wisdom are listed together....

Wisdom is like wise counsel.......
Knowledge is like understanding scripture as it applies to a specific circumstance!!!!

You would have to baically say all Bible Teachers are false!!!!!!

If you throw out knowledge.......
then you also gotta throw out WISDOM......

so you would have to say all Christian Counselors are false...
all marrriage Counselors are done away with!!!!
you would also have to say Wise counsel from Pastors is False.....

The gift's of wisdom and knowledge in the early church pertain to supernaturally obtaining special knowledge and wisdom. Folks did not have the complete written word of God to form all needed doctrines. So some were given direct knowledge and wisdom from God to fill in the blanks.

We have the completed word. We don't need a direct revelation/special knowledge or wisdom because nothing is missing for us.

All the knowledge and wisdom we need to advance as believers.......is in His finished word.

We test to see if things are true through His word. The early church did not have the completed word, so they were given special knowledge and wisdom so they could build on the proper foundation. Today, we have the foundation SET.
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1)

It would be quite silly to think that knowledge and wisdom in general has passed away right?:wink

 

[FreeGrace]

Bro you really cant pick and choose and cut and paste these gifts.....
these 3 gifts are listed as your cessationist view
1. tongues
2. prophecy
3. knowledge

These are all communication gifts, designed for edification of the body of Christ. And until the canon was completed, these gifts were necessary.

focus on the gift of KNOWLEDGE
listed again in ! corinthians 12:8
knowledge and wisdom are listed together....

Wisdom is like wise counsel.......
Knowledge is like understanding scripture as it applies to a specific circumstance!!!!

You would have to baically say all Bible Teachers are false!!!!!!

Faulty conclusion, from faulty assumptions.

If you throw out knowledge.......
then you also gotta throw out WISDOM......

No one is throwing them out. It's the GIFT of each that is no longer necessary, since we NOW HAVE the completed canon.

so you would have to say all Christian Counselors are false...
all marrriage Counselors are done away with!!!!
you would also have to say Wise counsel from Pastors is False.....

More false conclusions.

Christian and marriage counselors and pastors now have the completed canon. No need for special gifts NOW.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

For what it is worth this is my understanding of 1 Corinthians 14 concerning tongues, 'languages" spoken.

1 Corinthians 14:2
He that speaks in tongues speaks mysteries. It is my understanding that mysteries are not unknown things, but things that haven't been revealed as of yet. They exist in wonders, rather than instructions
1 Corinthians 14:4
Tongue speakers edifies themselves rather the Church, but prophesying edifies the Church.
1 Corinthians 14:6
Paul said, " If I speak in tongues what shall profit you: except I speak by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or doctrine."
1 Corinthians 14:7
"Even things without life that gives sound, pipes, harps, except they have a distinction in sound, how shall it be known what is piped or harped."
1 Corinthians 14:8
Trumpets must give a certain sound or no one will prepare for battle.
1Corinthians 14:9
"So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1 Corinthians 14:10
All the voices in the world are not without signification
1 Corinthians 14:12
Paul want all to excel in the edification of the Church
1 Corinthians 14:14
Paul said if he prayed with a tongue his understanding is unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 14:15
Paul said, " I will pray with the spirit and will pray with understanding.
1 Corinthians 14:17
If you give thanks in a tongue others are not edified.
1 Corinthians 14:19
Rather speak five words with understanding than ten thousand in a tongue.
1 Corinthians 14:20
Be men in understanding
1 Corinthians 14:21
The law has to do with tongues. Isaiah 28:11, " For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." Who is this people a reference to? The nation of Israel, not the Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 14:22
Tongues are for a sign to those that believe not. It doesn't say to unbelievers.
1 Corinthians 14:23
Addresses the unlearned and unbelievers
1 Corinthians 14:25
The secrets of the heart of the unlearned and unbelievers are made manifest by prophesying, not speaking in tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:26
Paul says " Let all things be done unto edifying." refers back to 1 Corinthians 14:19

As I understand this scripture, the reference to " those that believe not" is a reference to the Jews that didn't believe that God was bring into the Church, that was born on Pentecost, both Jews and Gentiles on the same footing. As a reference to this I offer Acts 10:45 their astonishment of the "pouring out of the gift of the Holy Ghost."

 

[ezra]

For those who speak in tongues, please memorize 1 Cor 14 and make sure an interpreter is present whenEVER tongues is spoken in public. When speaking in tongues in private, just remember what Paul said about that:
1 Cor 14:4 - Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. iow, no benefit to others.
v.5 - I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
v.9 - So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. iow, no profit to others.
v.12 - So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
v.14 - For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

iow, the speaker has no idea what they are praying when praying in a tongue.

there is far more worse going on in the church than tongues ,, the spirit of lukewarmness is spreading like wild fire . look up the great welch revival ..there was such a change in the men even the farm animals had no idea how to react . years later you couldn't even tell there was a revival . a guy i graduated with was missionary in Luxembourg. went site seeing where this church was . most never even had a idea what took place. revival fire once kindled in parts of Europe. know they are most liberal . you might run a fair crowd on sunday morning but sunday night very low numbers... sooooooooooooooo what i am saying is if agree or disagree on tongues today . it is not that important. seeing the church healthy and souls saved is . for the record i know nothing about tongues other than what the Bible says..let the spirit of truth work

 

[barelohim]

grudem believes "that which is perfect" is the second coming of Christ. And others have argued that the canon of scripture is not perfect because the seven thunders of revelation 10:4 are still sealed. Meaning that those things will one day be known, so the Bible is not complete.

Revelation 10:4New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.”

2 John 1: 12 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write them with paper and ink: but I hope to come unto you, and to speak face to face, that your joy may be made full.
13 The children of thine elect sister salute thee.
3 John 1: 13 I had many things to write unto thee, but I am unwilling to write them to thee with ink and pen:
14 but I hope shortly to see thee, and we shall speak face to face. Peace be unto thee. The friends salute thee. Salute the friends by name.

We can now talk with Our Lord, and He to us. So no need for anything else be written.

I am living in this century, and I have seen manifest all nine of the Gifts of the Spirit in my life, and as long as I have the Spirit, it will be so.

 

[gr8grace3]

there is far more worse going on in the church than tongues ,, the spirit of lukewarmness is spreading like wild fire

Believing that biblical tongues is for today after we have the completed canon...............is being lukewarm. It is denying the line upon line, precept upon precept of His finished word. And being lazy and lukewarm about searching the truth of the matter from His word/mind.


Tongues were a SIGN to 'this people'(Israel) for their Messiah, and impending divine discipline from the Lord. Leviticus 26 and deuteronomy point this out and Isaiah 28 warns Israel of this judgement and the SIGN is other nations speaking in their dialect, when they KNOW they are not schooled in that language.

And in 70 AD the Assyrians destroyed Jerusalem and scattered their inhabitants ........to a tee the way the Lord described it in Leviticus and deuteronomy.

 

[ezra]

Believing that biblical tongues is for today after we have the completed canon...............is being lukewarm. It is denying the line upon line, precept upon precept of His finished word. And being lazy and lukewarm about searching the truth of the matter from His word/mind.


Tongues were a SIGN to 'this people'(Israel) for their Messiah, and impending divine discipline from the Lord. Leviticus 26 and deuteronomy point this out and Isaiah 28 warns Israel of this judgement and the SIGN is other nations speaking in their dialect, when they KNOW they are not schooled in that language.

And in 70 AD the Assyrians destroyed Jerusalem and scattered their inhabitants ........to a tee the way the Lord described it in Leviticus and deuteronomy.

look its not my job not your Job to correct those who use tongues a good job for you would be go on a crusade to all those who speak in tongues . go to all the churches and tell them they are going to HELL to repent . back to beating my dead horse

 

[jasonc]

off topic line up on line and precept upon precept is about the torah, not about the bible interpretation. following the torah given to isreal by God , learning it and obeying it.

 

[gr8grace3]

look its not my job not your Job to correct

Exactly right. It is the Words job through the Holy Spirit. I am just presenting the word through my studies to those who want to maybe study it out a bit. And the fact that biblical tongues ended in 70AD is not a five second answer. If we WANT to KNOW.......we are going to have to study and put in some time and effort in His Word.

a good job for you would be go on a crusade to all those who speak in tongues . go to all the churches and tell them they are going to HELL

That is pretty low would you not say? I believe in eternal security. Those believers who profess to speak in tongues are saved just the same as me.