Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?

[jasonc]

if one is to say that modern "tounges" isn't from God then whence is that language from Satan. that my friend if one is saved means you are asking the Devil to enter into you.

ezra is implying that is what one is saying.

 

[gr8grace3]

if one is to say that modern "tounges" isn't from God then whence is that language from Satan. that my friend if one is saved means you are asking the Devil to enter into you.

ezra is implying that is what one is saying.

What? I never saw a post from him that said that.

Tongues, for believers today, is based upon emotions and feelings. Believers CANNOT be indwelt by satan or have satan enter into them.

The unbelievers who practice tongues today, most certainly can be possessed by fallen angels and demons. Most likely not satan himself though. satan is just ONE angel and can be at ONE place at a time. He has the big fish to fry.

 

[jasonc]

What? I never saw a post from him that said that.

Tongues, for believers today, is based upon emotions and feelings. Believers CANNOT be indwelt by satan or have satan enter into them.

The unbelievers who practice tongues today, most certainly can be possessed by fallen angels and demons. Most likely not satan himself though. satan is just ONE angel and can be at ONE place at a time. He has the big fish to fry.

uh, I personal know of people who were possessed and spoke in an unknown language, angels do have languages.
emotional?

really, emotional? I see that you really haven't asked , to say that one, wow. I have asked and received. it does involve an emotional reaction of peace when I have , but not some emotional response of its in error that I fake it and unknowningly.

tounge and interpretation also have I seen and also known what H.S. was going to say but was to shy to interpet. yet another did and it was the same thought to have said. at the time I said my first prayer in the Holy Ghost it wasn't out of a deep want that I must have it in how you say but it came upon me when I was going home after asking. the reality is that if you try to fake it it wont happen.are there fakers? yes, seen a few of those. but again. the canon wasn't completed until oh well after ad 70. try the 4th century. the vulgate by Jerome. so if it was a sign to Hebrews it must have stopped before then.

 

[gr8grace3]

awww i got your attention

No. You had it. That would be the discussion we are in?

You act as if your on the fence about tongues and eternal security........your post's say otherwise.

 

[gr8grace3]

uh, I personal know of people who were possessed and spoke in an unknown language, angels do have languages.
emotional?

really, emotional? I see that you really haven't asked , to say that one, wow. I have asked and received. it does involve an emotional reaction of peace when I have , but not some emotional response of its in error that I fake it and unknowningly.

tounge and interpretation also have I seen and also known what H.S. was going to say but was to shy to interpet. yet another did and it was the same thought to have said. at the time I said my first prayer in the Holy Ghost it wasn't out of a deep want that I must have it in how you say but it came upon me when I was going home after asking. the reality is that if you try to fake it it wont happen.are there fakers? yes, seen a few of those. but again. the canon wasn't completed until oh well after ad 70. try the 4th century. the vulgate by Jerome. so if it was a sign to Hebrews it must have stopped before then.

This is a jumbled mess. can't make hide nor hair of it. What?

 

[Free]

1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

So all of us will remain babes in Christ/a child and never reach maturity because we only have a "part" of what we need until Christ returns?
So in 1 Co 13:11 Paul is telling us that we think like children, speak like children, reason like a child and when Christ returns( the perfect) we can finally give up childish things and become mature?

The context carries MUCH, MUCH weight that "the perfect' is the completed canon. Because we are admonished to be complete/mature/perfect in the faith. Christ would never ask us to grow to spiritual maturity if we only know a 'part' and remain a babe until His return.

If you want to reply to my post, please address the questions.

 

[Free]

The other view is the coming of the Lord. The Lord is the Living Word, the Bible is the written Word. What's the difference? Paul called Scripture the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:16

The view is just as strong as referring to the Lord Himself. Esp so since the only gifts of the Spirit noted in 1 Cor 13:8 are about gifts that fill in the gaps until the canon is completed.

Not sure what you're addressing here or what your point is.

Because we see the Lord Himself in Scripture.

That is not seeing "face to face."

not necessarily. We see Jesus Christ in Scripture. We do see Him face to face when we look into Scripture.

No, we don't. Face to face means face to face, not face to text.

I believe they do show that.

Then please explain clearly and concisely how.

And gr8grace3 made this point in post #25:
Also, the neuter gender of 'the perfect' throws a cog in the wheel for 'the perfect' to mean the Lord.

Paul has no subject before the adjective 'the perfect', so 'the perfect' becomes the subject. So all we have is context to figure out what 'the perfect' is. And being the neuter gender.........'the perfect' has to be a THING. Because if Paul meant the Lord Jesus Christ, 'the perfect' would have been masculine........because there was no subject mentioned before "the perfect".......It makes 'the perfect' the subject.......and it would be masculine gender if 'the perfect' was Jesus Christ.

'The perfect'/τέλειος (teleios) Is used in most cases for a MATURE/COMPLETE believer. How do we become mature or complete believers? Through studying His COMPLETE word and not adding or taking away a jot. His word has all we need to become complete/mature believers.

It's difficult to argue against grammar.

I'm not arguing against grammar. You're arguing against a point that I haven't made.

Please respond directly to each of my questions. There was a lot that you ignored.

 

[JAG ..]

Cessationism- have tongues . . . ceased, or are they still active?

I love the Pentecostals (And I love their music and am wild about their singing)
and even though I am a Baptist-type, the wife and I listen to the Pentecostals
sing and preach and also hear them do "their tongues thingy." I have heard
them do "their tongues thingy" many times "kabula bulla olla relllie seppie
umbrah roomm etc etc" and then when they finish the interpreter immediately
speaks out and "tells us what they said" and I note that its ALWAYS stuff like
"God wants you to love each other." I'm thinking "Yeah right! Who knew!"

And they continue to interpret and its ALWAYS God telling us to do something
or not to do something that the Bible clearly says do, or not to do. So I'm thinking
why don't we just read the Bible in the first place.

But I don't have any strong feelings against "speaking in tongues" and its doesn't
bother me any at all to hear my good Pentecostal brothers and sisters do that.

Running spell.
There is a really magnificent large Pentecostal Church in another town, and these
good people sometimes have what they call "a holy running spell" which means
that certain ones, when they "get happy", run at top speed up and down the aisles
sometimes for a full 2 minutes. I pray and ask the Lord to prevent them from hurting
themselves. Their running doesn't bother me any.

 

[Jim Parker]

Believing that biblical tongues is for today after we have the completed canon...............is being lukewarm. It is denying the line upon line, precept upon precept of His finished word. And being lazy and lukewarm about searching the truth of the matter from His word/mind.

It denies nothing of the sort. But it is used as an excuse to quench the spirit and to forbid speaking in tongues which are both specifically forbidden by that "closed canon."
1Th 5:19-20 Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies.
1Co 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

The gifts of the spirit are a permanent gift to the Church.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to the church for the benefit of the church.
Co 12:4-7 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

The closing of the canon is something that man did, not God. There is no mention of any such action in scripture.
And there was an oral tradition that coincided with the gospels and letters. (HEB 2:1-3; JAS 1:22-25; 1JN 1:1-3, 5; 2:7, 24; 3:11; 4:3; 2JN 1: 6)
We don't even have all of Paul's letters. (Col 4:16)
God never said, "That's all I've got to say; I ain't saying no more."

And in 70 AD the Assyrians destroyed Jerusalem and scattered their inhabitants

In 701 BC, the Assyrians laid siege to Jerusalem. They were turned back when an angel of the Lord killed 185,000 of them. (2Ki 19:35)
It was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and sold so many Jews into slavery that they drove the prices to rock bottom.
In 135 AD. the Jews revolted again and this time Rome forbade any Jew from living in Judea. They didn't fully return until 1947.

 

[Jim Parker]

I have heard them do "their tongues thingy" many times "kabula bulla olla relllie seppie umbrah roomm etc etc"

While you may not accept what they are doing and find it amusing, I suggest that you be very careful in what you say that you do not mock the Gift of the Holy Spirit. It could be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Please tread carefully.

 

[Mike]

Thanks to Jim Parker for including scripture to support his argument. Nothing else on this page so far. This is a rule for the Theology Forum, folks. It's not a place to simply give opinions.

 

[jasonc]

This is a jumbled mess. can't make hide nor hair of it. What?

If the perfect,is here now.then faith isn't needed.only love.

You do see that in 1 corinthians 13

 

[FreeGrace]

there is far more worse going on in the church than tongues ,, the spirit of lukewarmness is spreading like wild fire . look up the great welch revival ..there was such a change in the men even the farm animals had no idea how to react . years later you couldn't even tell there was a revival . a guy i graduated with was missionary in Luxembourg. went site seeing where this church was . most never even had a idea what took place. revival fire once kindled in parts of Europe. know they are most liberal . you might run a fair crowd on sunday morning but sunday night very low numbers... sooooooooooooooo what i am saying is if agree or disagree on tongues today . it is not that important. seeing the church healthy and souls saved is .

My point was that those participating in tongues need to follow what the Bible says about it. 1 Cor 14 must be followed. If not, then whatever is going on is not biblical. It's either hype-emotionalism or, worst case, demon possession.

for the record i know nothing about tongues other than what the Bible says..let the spirit of truth work

Unless those who claim to speak in tongues follows 1 Cor 14 very carefully, they are being deceived.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The other view is the coming of the Lord. The Lord is the Living Word, the Bible is the written Word. What's the difference? Paul called Scripture the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:16

The view is just as strong as referring to the Lord Himself. Esp so since the only gifts of the Spirit noted in 1 Cor 13:8 are about gifts that fill in the gaps until the canon is completed."

Not sure what you're addressing here or what your point is.

That wasn't the whole post. It was part of a post. Picking out a snippet of one's post removes the context. The post addressed what 1 Cor 13:10 meant by 'when the perfect comes' (NASB). The NIV has "when completeness comes". I noted 2 views. One was that the phrase refers to the second coming of the Lord. The other view is the finishing of the canon of Scripture.

So, in context, my comment above equates the finished canon, as the Written Word, with Jesus Christ Himself, the Living Word.

But, as gr8grace3 so skillfully pointed out, the gender is neuter, which shows that Paul did not have the second coming of the Lord in mind in 1 Cor 13:10. He did have in mind the completion of the canon. And the Greek word does carry the idea of completeness.

Please respond directly to each of my questions. There was a lot that you ignored.

Just as there was more to my post.

 

[gr8grace3]

It denies nothing of the sort. But it is used as an excuse to quench the spirit and to forbid speaking in tongues which are both specifically forbidden by that "closed canon."
1Th 5:19-20 Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies.
1Co 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

I can't forbid anyone from speaking in a language. But I can sure offer people solid biblical evidence that tongues ceased in 70 AD.Paul told the Corinth people not to forbid speaking in a foreign language because there were a dozen or so years left to give Israel the SIGN of their impending destruction.
New American Standard Bible
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

Isa 28~~ 11Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,

12He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
New International Version
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

The gifts of the spirit are a permanent gift to the Church.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Agreed. This is why we cannot lose salvation.And we never find a verse that says," But where there is eternal life,it will cease."
BUT, we have a specific verse that says some of these gifts are only temporary.
New International Version
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

God never said, "That's all I've got to say; I ain't saying no more."

Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.

In 701 BC, the Assyrians laid siege to Jerusalem. They were turned back when an angel of the Lord killed 185,000 of them. (2Ki 19:35)
It was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and sold so many Jews into slavery that they drove the prices to rock bottom.
In 135 AD. the Jews revolted again and this time Rome forbade any Jew from living in Judea. They didn't fully return until 1947.

Thank you Jim. You are correct. I was incorrect.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I love the Pentecostals (And I love their music and am wild about their singing)
and even though I am a Baptist-type, the wife and I listen to the Pentecostals
sing and preach and also hear them do "their tongues thingy." I have heard
them do "their tongues thingy" many times "kabula bulla olla relllie seppie
umbrah roomm etc etc" and then when they finish the interpreter immediately
speaks out and "tells us what they said" and I note that its ALWAYS stuff like
"God wants you to love each other." I'm thinking "Yeah right! Who knew!"

And they continue to interpret and its ALWAYS God telling us to do something
or not to do something that the Bible clearly says do, or not to do. So I'm thinking
why don't we just read the Bible in the first place.

But I don't have any strong feelings against "speaking in tongues" and its doesn't
bother me any at all to hear my good Pentecostal brothers and sisters do that.

Running spell.
There is a really magnificent large Pentecostal Church in another town, and these
good people sometimes have what they call "a holy running spell" which means
that certain ones, when they "get happy", run at top speed up and down the aisles
sometimes for a full 2 minutes. I pray and ask the Lord to prevent them from hurting
themselves. Their running doesn't bother me any.

Tongues should be praise of God not exhortation . But you have pretty positive take on it.

 

[brujaq]

I love the Pentecostals (And I love their music and am wild about their singing)
and even though I am a Baptist-type, the wife and I listen to the Pentecostals
sing and preach and also hear them do "their tongues thingy." I have heard
them do "their tongues thingy" many times "kabula bulla olla relllie seppie
umbrah roomm etc etc" and then when they finish the interpreter immediately
speaks out and "tells us what they said" and I note that its ALWAYS stuff like
"God wants you to love each other." I'm thinking "Yeah right! Who knew!"

And they continue to interpret and its ALWAYS God telling us to do something
or not to do something that the Bible clearly says do, or not to do. So I'm thinking
why don't we just read the Bible in the first place.

But I don't have any strong feelings against "speaking in tongues" and its doesn't
bother me any at all to hear my good Pentecostal brothers and sisters do that.

Running spell.
There is a really magnificent large Pentecostal Church in another town, and these
good people sometimes have what they call "a holy running spell" which means
that certain ones, when they "get happy", run at top speed up and down the aisles
sometimes for a full 2 minutes. I pray and ask the Lord to prevent them from hurting
themselves. Their running doesn't bother me any.

Fair enough .. Actually not a bad attitude at all, I've seen some pretty bad criticism ..

 

[gr8grace3]

The "perfect" being the "completion of the canon of Scripture" is a very weak position, as it doesn't fit the context.

1Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (ESV)

The best fit for the context is the Lord's return, but that does not mean it necessarily refers to Jesus himself. It likely refers to everything pertaining to his return--the complete reign of his kingdom, the eternal state of believers, the life to come, etc. Perhaps even sooner for those believers who have died.

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face." How does this fit the completion of Scripture? Seeing face to face is something that happens from one person to another, not from one person to a text, is it not?

"Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." How is Paul only going to know fully when the canon of Scripture is complete? Did he not know more fully once he died and went to be with the Lord? Is it the canon of Scripture that fully knew Paul? Who has fully known us and just how fully have they known us?

More importantly, who, in the entire history of Christianity, has known fully, "even as [they] have been fully known?" Similarly, who has ever not seen as "in a mirror dimly"? Do you think we see perfectly now?


Please show in Scripture where both prophecy and tongues were to '"fill in the gaps" regarding edification of believers for what hadn't been written yet'. The verses from 1 Cor. 14 do not show what you are claiming they show.

1Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (ESV)
1 Cor 13:11 when I was a child, I spoke like a child(the gift of tongues), I thought like a child(the gift of knowledge),I reasoned like a child(the gift of prophesy/wisdom..) When I became a man(the perfect comes), I gave up childish ways(the temporary gifts listed in vs 8)

We see Christ face to face in His completed word. We see His person. His character. His virtue. His integrity. The Lord knew full well the person or character of Paul. With the completed canon we can see fully and clearly, the character and Person of Jesus Christ.....Hence the " Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP."

The context of these verses are not about Paul dying and finally getting to know the "secrets of the universe." The context is about giving up childish things and becoming mature/complete/perfect before we die.

 

[brujaq]

1Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (ESV)
1 Cor 13:11 when I was a child, I spoke like a child(the gift of tongues), I thought like a child(the gift of knowledge),I reasoned like a child(the gift of prophesy/wisdom..) When I became a man(the perfect comes), I gave up childish ways(the temporary gifts listed in vs 8)

We see Christ face to face in His completed word. We see His person. His character. His virtue. His integrity. The Lord knew full well the person or character of Paul. With the completed canon we can see fully and clearly, the character and Person of Jesus Christ.....Hence the " Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP."

The context of these verses are not about Paul dying and finally getting to know the "secrets of the universe." The context is about giving up childish things and becoming mature/complete/perfect before we die.

Your opinion on Acts 2:16-18 .. I like what you say about seeing Jesus in scripture but when we see him face to face in my opinion is at our resurrection ..

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

You have to determine if there is a difference between " them that believe not" in verse 22 and "those that are unlearned and unbelievers" in verse 23
We are told that "the just shall live by faith". If we look for signs how is that any different than the Pharisees of which Jesus spoke about in Matthew 16:4, " A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonas. And he left them, and departed."

Matthew 16:6, " Then Jesus said unto them, take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees".