Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?

[dirtfarmer]

1Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (ESV)
1 Cor 13:11 when I was a child, I spoke like a child(the gift of tongues), I thought like a child(the gift of knowledge),I reasoned like a child(the gift of prophesy/wisdom..) When I became a man(the perfect comes), I gave up childish ways(the temporary gifts listed in vs 8)

We see Christ face to face in His completed word. We see His person. His character. His virtue. His integrity. The Lord knew full well the person or character of Paul. With the completed canon we can see fully and clearly, the character and Person of Jesus Christ.....Hence the " Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP."

The context of these verses are not about Paul dying and finally getting to know the "secrets of the universe." The context is about giving up childish things and becoming mature/complete/perfect before we die.

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

Good post. Would give you a "like" but there is no option for that.

 

[JAG ..]

While you may not accept what they are doing

I accept what they are doing and have no problems with it
whatsoever. Regarding my post to which you responded,
do you remember reading this?
"But I don't have any strong feelings against "speaking in
tongues" and its doesn't bother me any at all to hear my
good Pentecostal brothers and sisters do that."__JAG

and find it amusing

I didn't say a single word about finding it amusing. That is what
YOU said. That came out of YOUR mind, not my mind.

I suggest that you be very careful in what you say

I am always very careful in what I say.

that you do not mock the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

The notion of "mock" originated within YOUR mind.

It could be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

There was nothing in my post that remotely hinted at that.
Another notion that originated within YOUR mind.

"I love the Pentecostals"__JAG

"There is a really magnificent large Pentecostal Church
in another town, and these good people sometimes . . ."
__JAG

Please tread carefully.

I always tread carefully.

 

[for_his_glory]

First, we ARE "complete in Christ". The Bible says so. 2 Pet 1:3 - His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

And until the canon was completed, we didn't have "all the knowledge of the written word", which is my point. When Paul wrote 1 Cor 13:8, the canon had not been completed; thus the necessity for the 3 special communication gifts of the Spirit: tongues, prophecy and knowledge.

When the canon was completed, these gifts specifically are no longer required.

Gods divine power has given us all we need for a Godly life, but do we actually 100% know all that He gave other than the sacrifice for our sin? This is why love is the greatest gift because if we can understand His love then we would be complete. It's a love above all else, but at times I find it hard to understand, but still accept it.

It doesn't matter what or when the canon became as what matters are the letters that were added to it as the letters were first written before the canon.

I disagree as the gifts of the Holy Spirit are just as important today as they were when the Disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 3:8 doesn't stop there as when you read on, 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

It's only when Christ returns is when all the gifts will cease.

 

[jasonc]

Paul wasn't the only apostle, in fact John by tradition died after ad 70,he died close to ad 90.20 or more years after ad 70.

Yet if you accept revelation was after that it was about ad 94.

He was the last ,and had visions,prohecied

If words of knowledge are gone ,kindly explain to me things thar God showed me that my wife was doing while I was In Afghanistan and who with.I was told by the Spirit.I saw it in visions and dreams.I have dreamed of seeing a base telling others of Jesus ,the exact location,the type buildings I would see and at night.

That's not true?

 

[JAG ..]

Tongues should be praise of God not exhortation .

Thanks for the insight. I will remember that.
However they do have an interpreter that does deliver
exhortations. So I guess both praise and exhortation is
included?

But you have pretty positive take on it.

I love the Pentecostals, I mean really and truly love them
and their music. I have every single DVD that Jimmy Swaggart
and the Resurrection Choir has published. And that's quite a
collection and the wife and I listen to them almost every night
of the week in our Living Room and I keep them going constantly
when we're in the truck getting around town. I love to hear the
Pentecostal's preach too.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Thanks for the insight. I will remember that.
However they do have an interpreter that does deliver
exhortations. So I guess both praise and exhortation is
included?



I love the Pentecostals, I mean really and truly love them
and their music. I have every single DVD that Jimmy Swaggart
and the Resurrection Choir has published. And that's quite a
collection and the wife and I listen to them almost every night
of the week in our Living Room and I keep them going constantly
when we're in the truck getting around town. I love to hear the
Pentecostal's preach too.

I was looking for the verse but tongues in public should only be praise, not exhortation. We get exhortation from Bible.

 

[JAG ..]

I was looking for the verse but tongues in public should only be
praise, not exhortation. We get exhortation from Bible.

I'm looking forward to reading it. By the way, your Opening Post was
very interesting and so was the article at your link. Wayne Gruden is
always worth a read.

 

[FreeGrace]

Gods divine power has given us all we need for a Godly life, but do we actually 100% know all that He gave other than the sacrifice for our sin?

You just paraphrased 2 Pet 1:3, so how can you even ask such a question? What does "all we need" mean? It means 'everything' to me.

It doesn't matter what or when the canon became as what matters are the letters that were added to it as the letters were first written before the canon.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the issue of when the canon was completed is important, even if no one thinks so.

I disagree as the gifts of the Holy Spirit are just as important today as they were when the Disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Again, everyone is entitled....

1 Corinthians 3:8 doesn't stop there as when you read on, 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

First, the chapter is 13, not 3. Second, the Greek word translated "perfect" means "completed". Third, the gender is neuter. So how can that refer to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ? It can't. Paul would have used the masculine gender if he was referring to the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's only when Christ returns is when all the gifts will cease.

Again, one is entitled....

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul wasn't the only apostle, in fact John by tradition died after ad 70,he died close to ad 90.20 or more years after ad 70.

Yet if you accept revelation was after that it was about ad 94.

He was the last ,and had visions,prohecied

If words of knowledge are gone ,kindly explain to me things thar God showed me that my wife was doing while I was In Afghanistan and who with.I was told by the Spirit.I saw it in visions and dreams.I have dreamed of seeing a base telling others of Jesus ,the exact location,the type buildings I would see and at night.

That's not true?

A lot of people have dreamed a lot of dreams. That's not the point. What wasn't clarified is how many if any were validated?

The last sentence is a bit fuzzy. Please explain what was meant by "a base telling others...". Seems to be a typo.

 

[JAG ..]

I was looking for the verse but tongues in public should only be praise,
not exhortation.

We get exhortation from Bible.

Regarding your, "We get exhortation from the Bible",
I was impressed by this quote from your linked article:
_____________________________________________
Donald Gee (Assemblies of God):

[There are] grave problems raised by the habit of giving and
receiving personal “messages” of guidance through the gifts
of the Spirit … The Bible gives a place for such direction from
the Holy Spirit … But it must be kept in proportion.

An examination of the Scriptures will show us that as a matter
of fact the early Christians did not continually receive such
voices from heaven. In most cases they made their decisions
by the use of what we often call “sanctified common-sense”
and lived quite normal lives.

Many of our errors where spiritual gifts are concerned arise
when we want the extraordinary and exceptional to be made
the frequent and habitual. Let all who develop excessive
desire for “messages” through the gifts take warning from
the wreckage of past generations as well as of contemporaries …
The Holy Scriptures are a lamp unto our feet and a light unto
our path.43
End quote.
___________________________

 

[for_his_glory]

Not one person here is going to argue this.

What is in question are the gifts that were given temporarily to teachers, evangelists. These people could AT WILL walk up to someone and heal blindness,deafness,paralysis. They had the gift. They could have walked into our hospitals and healed EVERY single person in the hospital. They had the gift. But they ceased when the Word was complete.

Paul left people sick, whom he loved, because the supernatural gifts were ENDING and the WORD was close to being complete.

2 Tim 4:20~~New American Standard Bible
Erastus remained at Corinth, but Trophimus I left sick at Miletus.

Paul did not just leave Trophimus sick and on his own. Paul had the revelation that we MAY suffer for Christ and bring Him Glory through our suffering.Paul undoubtedly left Trophimus with Gods word and a solid understanding of how we will suffer for Christ if we are mature.

Trophimus............was a mature believer.........Paul left him sick, because Trophimus UNDERSTOOD and was an ADULT/COMPLETE/MATURE believer.

Scripture does not say why Paul left Trophimus sick so anything beyond that is only speculation. The gift of healing is just not for teachers or Evangelist, but for anyone who God will choose to work through. Why do some get healed while others do not I can not truly answer that as only God would know as He has His own reasons. I and many have prayed and also laid hands on some that have been healed while others were not. It was not us, but the Holy Spirit through us that did the healing as we are only vessels God works through until the return of Christ. In many ways God will allow us to suffer, but the gift of healing is very much alive today.

Why God allows us to go through trials and tribulations:
1. Training as God prepares us for the future
2. Patience as we rely and trust in God's timing
3. Perseverance through trials that we remain in Gods will
4. Trust as God's ways are not our ways and He has a better plan for us
5. To learn from our mistakes
6. To humble ourselves before Him
7. To discipline us
8. Teach us to be dependent on Him alone
9. To spend quiet time with God so He can speak to us
10. To teach us of His protection
11. That we also share in the sufferings of Christ that we be not ashamed
12. Strengthen us to become more like Christ
13. To develop character
14. Build up our faith in the Lord
15. For a testimony and witness to help others
16. To show us sin in our lives that we need to own up to having
17. To remind us that God is in control
18. Helps us gain knowledge and understanding God's word
19. Teaches us to be thankful
20. To take our mind off the things of the world and and put them back on God

 

[godsquadgeek]

I'm looking forward to reading it. By the way, your Opening Post was
very interesting and so was the article at your link. Wayne Gruden is
always worth a read.

here is the verse:
1 Corinthians 14:2New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

so we see that tongues is not for witnessing, or exhortation or anything that speaks to men, tongues is for public prayer too, or public worship.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Regarding your, "We get exhortation from the Bible",
I was impressed by this quote from your linked article:
_____________________________________________
Donald Gee (Assemblies of God):

[There are] grave problems raised by the habit of giving and
receiving personal “messages” of guidance through the gifts
of the Spirit … The Bible gives a place for such direction from
the Holy Spirit … But it must be kept in proportion.

An examination of the Scriptures will show us that as a matter
of fact the early Christians did not continually receive such
voices from heaven. In most cases they made their decisions
by the use of what we often call “sanctified common-sense”
and lived quite normal lives.

Many of our errors where spiritual gifts are concerned arise
when we want the extraordinary and exceptional to be made
the frequent and habitual. Let all who develop excessive
desire for “messages” through the gifts take warning from
the wreckage of past generations as well as of contemporaries …
The Holy Scriptures are a lamp unto our feet and a light unto
our path.43
End quote.
___________________________

good post

 

[jasonc]

A lot of people have dreamed a lot of dreams. That's not the point. What wasn't clarified is how many if any were validated?

The last sentence is a bit fuzzy. Please explain what was meant by "a base telling others...". Seems to be a typo.

Military bases where I have never saw until I went there,it was a month.

Outside of pentacostals, few ever have such visions.

The visions from Afghanistan are words of knowledge as I told her what I saw her do.

 

[for_his_glory]

The gift's of wisdom and knowledge in the early church pertain to supernaturally obtaining special knowledge and wisdom. Folks did not have the complete written word of God to form all needed doctrines. So some were given direct knowledge and wisdom from God to fill in the blanks.

We have the completed word. We don't need a direct revelation/special knowledge or wisdom because nothing is missing for us.

All the knowledge and wisdom we need to advance as believers.......is in His finished word.

We test to see if things are true through His word. The early church did not have the completed word, so they were given special knowledge and wisdom so they could build on the proper foundation. Today, we have the foundation SET.
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1)

It would be quite silly to think that knowledge and wisdom in general has passed away right?:wink

The early church had the completed word of God as they heard the Apostles teach them and were also taught through the letters the Apostles wrote and sent to the churches as many were underground churches in fear the Romans would find them. Even with our Bible today many things are literal and symbolically Spiritual at the same time. This is where we need wisdom and understanding as we will always need the Holy Spirit to help us to rightly divide the word of God and show us how to discern truth from error of what others teach us.

 

[jasonc]

Military bases where I have never saw until I went there,it was a month.

Outside of pentacostals, few ever have such visions.

The visions from Afghanistan are words of knowledge as I told her what I saw her do.

This dream was too specefic,the location ,the question,the type building near a lake, shingles oddly on a building on its side,the rank the soldier held,the way he leaned on a post.

 

[for_his_glory]

You just paraphrased 2 Pet 1:3, so how can you even ask such a question? What does "all we need" mean? It means 'everything' to me.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the issue of when the canon was completed is important, even if no one thinks so.


Again, everyone is entitled....


First, the chapter is 13, not 3. Second, the Greek word translated "perfect" means "completed". Third, the gender is neuter. So how can that refer to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ? It can't. Paul would have used the masculine gender if he was referring to the Lord Jesus Christ.


Again, one is entitled....

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Do you know all the promises of God in the sense you could list all of them as there are around 5000 to 7000 of them. I know I could not list them all, but know that they are for blessings and cursing, Deuteronomy 27:11-26; 28:1-19.

Why is the completion of the canon so important as many letters of importance were left out of it.
Yes, everyone is entitled to disagree, but not to force their beliefs on others.

Thank you for pointing that out as it is Chapter 13, my finger did not hit the one button. I see it as being Christ as none of us are perfect until this mortal puts on immortality and this corruptible puts on incorruptible, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Yes, as again I agree one is entitled to their opinion, but also what they believe according to the word of God.

 

[JAG ..]

here is the verse:
1 Corinthians 14:2New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one
understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Thanks for taking the time to find the verse.

so we see that tongues is not for witnessing, or exhortation or anything
that speaks to men, tongues is for public prayer too, or public worship.

So then, am I correct in concluding that, on your view, we would not have to be
concerned about some of our more enthusiastic message-receiving brethren,
claiming to have received new not-in-the-Bible revelations from God? I think that's
your view, and if it is, I will give you a hearty "Amen" to the notion of no more new
not-in-the-Bible revelations from God. The Bible is a finished work. I mean the Bible,
the word of God, ends with Revelation 22:21 . . .

. . . and so then, on your view (and mine too) tongues and prophecy etc can not
possibly give us a Revelation 22:22

Am I reading you correctly?


`

 

[JAG ..]

good post

Thanks.

 

[Jim Parker]

I can't forbid anyone from speaking in a language. But I can sure offer people solid biblical evidence that tongues ceased in 70 AD.

It is easy to force scripture to fit into one's preferred theology.
There is plenty of HISTORICAL evidence for the continuance of the gifts of the spirit.

Irenaeus on the Gifts of the Spirit in 180 AD

The Lord raised the dead, and the apostles did so by the means of prayer, and this has been frequently done in the brotherhood on account of some necessity. When the entire church in that particular locality entreated God with much fasting and prayer, the spirit of the dead man has returned, and he has been bestowed in answer to the prayers of the saints. … Those who are truly His disciples, receiving grace from Him, … perform [works] in His name, in order to promote the welfare of others, according to the gift that each one has received from Him.

Some truly and certainly cast out devils. The result is that those who have been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come. They see visions, and they utter prophetic expressions. Still others heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and the sick are made whole. What is more, as I have said, even the dead have been raised up and remained among us for many years.
Source: http://reclaimingthefaith.blogspot.com/2014/12/irenaeus-on-gifts-of-spirit-in-180ad.html

That is the HISTORICAL record of the continuation of the gifts of the spirit 110 years AFTER 70 AD.
We also have the witness of John Wesley in England and and Johnathan Edwards in America in the 1730s.

I believe that the so-called secession of the gifts is a contrivance which was necessary to support the "Dispensational" theology that was devised in the 1800s and which has become popular in some parts of the body of Christ.

iakov the fool