Eternal Security of the Believer

[Randy]

No, you created an idol, a caricature of Jesus that you believe.

Contrary to what you say, John the apostle says:

Jesus is the True God and Eternal life:

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1 Jn. 5:20-21 NKJ)

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life

Jesus made the Father known to us
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And you don't seem to understand Oneness. As I believe Jesus is all that the Father is and the Father is in Him. They are one in that manner

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—
I in them and you in me

Col 1:19 - from the will of another - The one who is that Deity in Himself without receiving from any other being the only true God. And Jesus is the Lord Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life

Jesus made the Father known to us
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And you don't seem to understand Oneness. As I believe Jesus is all that the Father is and the Father is in Him. They are one in that manner

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—
I in them and you in me

Col 1:19 - from the will of another - The one who is that Deity in Himself without receiving from any other being the only true God. And Jesus is the Lord Christ.

That is your idolatry, putting God in a human box. You forget God created all things, He is infinite, not finite like a creature. When Scripture says the Father is the True God, and the Son is the True God, then you MUST believe BOTH statements because Scripture is 100% true.

There were two blind men, each held a different part of an elephant in hand. One held its Trunk, and described what the Elephant felt like.

The other held its Tail, and contradicted the other blind man, insisting the Tail's description is alone true.

You are that blind man.

You reject Scripture that says Jesus is the Only True God, because you do not see the Infinite God in which these both can be true without contradicting each other.

Both are the Only True God, because Jesus and His Father ARE ONE:

30 "I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law,`I said, "You are gods "'?
35 "If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,`You are blaspheming,' because I said,`I am the Son of God '?
37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
(Jn. 10:30-39 NKJ)

You are in the grip of idolatry, having fashioned a Jesus in your own image, after your own liking.

A Jesus who really isn't human, because His human spirit did not come into existence with His body and His soul at conception.

The Jesus you believe in doesn't exist.

The only Jesus who exists that can give you life and save you from hell, is The Father's Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life:

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1 Jn. 5:20-21 NKJ)

 

[Randy]

That is your idolatry, putting God in a human box. You forget God created all things, He is infinite, not finite like a creature. When Scripture says the Father is the True God, and the Son is the True God, then you MUST believe BOTH statements because Scripture is 100% true.

There were two blind men, each held a different part of an elephant in hand. One held its Trunk, and described what the Elephant felt like.

The other held its Tail, and contradicted the other blind man, insisting the Tail's description is alone true.

You are that blind man.

You reject Scripture that says Jesus is the Only True God, because you do not see the Infinite God in which these both can be true without contradicting each other.

Both are the Only True God, because Jesus and His Father ARE ONE:

30 "I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law,`I said, "You are gods "'?
35 "If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,`You are blaspheming,' because I said,`I am the Son of God '?
37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
(Jn. 10:30-39 NKJ)

You are in the grip of idolatry, having fashioned a Jesus in your own image, after your own liking.

A Jesus who really isn't human, because His human spirit did not come into existence with His body and His soul at conception.

The Jesus you believe in doesn't exist.

The only Jesus who exists that can give you life and save you from hell, is The Father's Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life:

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1 Jn. 5:20-21 NKJ)

Maybe you should pray for me then.

What you fail to consider is that the eternal Spirit of the Father without limit (fullness) that dwells in Jesus will act upon Jesus's will. He has that authority and the fullness was gifted to Him and part of His being. He is all that the Father is and is not a puppet. Heaven and earth will move at the command of the Son. However as a Son He abides within the framework of the Fathers will. He can't go off and start a beginning of life on another planet or do something apart from the Fathers plans. He would never do that as He always does what pleases the Father and remains in the Fathers love. I just point that out as a limitation.

Jesus did state He was the Son of God. Psalm 2:7

And this is why which differs from the context with what your presenting.
As explained to Mary as she asked how since she was a virgin.
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God

 

[Alfred Persson]

Maybe you should pray for me then.

What you fail to consider is that the eternal Spirit of the Father without limit (fullness) that dwells in Jesus will act upon Jesus's will. He has that authority and the fullness was gifted to Him and part of His being. He is all that the Father is and is not a puppet. Heaven and earth will move at the command of the Son. However as a Son He abides within the framework of the Fathers will. He can't go off and start a beginning of life on another planet or do something apart from the Fathers plans. He would never do that as He always does what pleases the Father and remains in the Fathers love. I just point that out as a limitation.

Jesus did state He was the Son of God. Psalm 2:7

And this is why which differs from the context with what your presenting.
As explained to Mary as she asked how since she was a virgin.
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God

That is why I doubt English is your native tongue. You confuse authority with Being, essence. Authority is not substance, being One in Essence with the Father is.

The Son of God is not sub-god, just as the son of a human is not sub-human.

Scripture is 100% true. It contradicts your idolatrous construct of a Jesus who does not have a human spirit.

In fact, denying Christ has a human spirit is equivalent to denying "the Word became flesh" (idiom for "human"):

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.
6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 Jn. 4:2-6 NKJ)

 

[Randy]

That is why I doubt English is your native tongue. You confuse authority with Being, essence. Authority is not substance, being One in Essence with the Father is.

The Son of God is not sub-god, just as the son of a human is not sub-human.

Scripture is 100% true. It contradicts your idolatrous construct of a Jesus who does not have a human spirit.

In fact, denying Christ has a human spirit is equivalent to denying "the Word became flesh" (idiom for "human"):

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.
6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 Jn. 4:2-6 NKJ)

Jesus addressed oneness which I presented. I haven't confused anything.

I have given them the glory you gave me.
That they may be one as we are one.
I in them and you in me

And what did I state would act on Jesus's will? Not just authority then,
The eternal Spirit of the Father that dwells in Him (without limit) as in fullness

And the Son who was did cone from above which I state
His spirit was in the body God prepared for Him and the Father was living in Him.

There is only One true God the Father. There are no sub Gods but the Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. All that the Father is.

Its one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Christ isn't Jesus's last name.
As is in several of Paul's letters
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus addressed oneness which I presented. I haven't confused anything.

I have given them the glory you gave me.
That they may be one as we are one.
I in them and you in me

And what did I state would act on Jesus's will? Not just authority then,
The eternal Spirit of the Father that dwells in Him (without limit) as in fullness

And the Son who was did cone from above which I state
His spirit was in the body God prepared for Him and the Father was living in Him.

There is only One true God the Father. There are no sub Gods but the Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being. All that the Father is.

Its one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

You did confuse the different "oneness"

Jesus says He is "one" in essence with the Father, "one Being". That is why the Jews considered it blasphemy, its the same as claiming to be God:

30 "I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." (Jn. 10:30-33 NKJ)

That is "one" in essence, substance. It is different than being "one" in unity of purpose:

Just as the Father was in Christ doing the works so the world believe the Father sent Him, SO ALSO should Christians be one in the same evangelistic purpose so the world believe in Jesus through their word.

Its a oneness in mind, effort and purpose, not a oneness in substance.

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

In verse 22 Jesus transitions to a prayer the glory Jesus had with the Father in heaven (John 17:5) be shared with these who are one in purpose and mind bringing people to belief in Jesus.

As a consequence of their oneness in Christian purpose for Christ, He prays they share in the glory that the Father gave the Son, and live in blissful perfection with God in heaven.

But there is no confusion of substance, we remain individuals who will live with Christ, that wherever He is we will be--- beholding the glory the Father gave the Son before the foundation of the world:

Some of that coming oneness in glory that brings unity and purpose can be seen now in this life, "that the world may know that You have sent Me"

22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (Jn. 17:20-24 NKJ)

Jesus' audience knew the difference in "oneness" being spoken of. To those who did not see the truth of God being One in Essence yet plural as to Persons, it seemed like blasphemy Jesus claim to be the only begotten Son of God one in essence with the Father.

No one tried to stone Jesus in John 17:20-24 because Jesus was NOT saying we would become God, live in God's substance equally with the Father and the Son.

In verse 24 He desires we live with Him beholding His glory wherever He may be.

AS for saying there is One God and One Lord, that does not contradict God is One Infinite Ocean of Essence in Three divine Persons, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Jesus has two natures, human and divine. He is the Christ, fully human Messiah the LORD Jesus, AND He is God's Only Begotten Son, Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Randy]

You did confuse the different "oneness"

Jesus says He is "one" in essence with the Father, "one Being". That is why the Jews considered it blasphemy, its the same as claiming to be God:

30 "I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." (Jn. 10:30-33 NKJ)

That is "one" in essence, substance. It is different than being "one" in unity of purpose:

Just as the Father was in Christ doing the works so the world believe the Father sent Him, SO ALSO should Christians be one in the same evangelistic purpose so the world believe in Jesus through their word.

Its a oneness in mind, effort and purpose, not a oneness in substance.

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

In verse 22 Jesus transitions to a prayer the glory Jesus had with the Father in heaven (John 17:5) be shared with these who are one in purpose and mind bringing people to belief in Jesus.

As a consequence of their oneness in Christian purpose for Christ, He prays they share in the glory that the Father gave the Son, and live in blissful perfection with God in heaven.

But there is no confusion of substance, we remain individuals who will live with Christ, that wherever He is we will be--- beholding the glory the Father gave the Son before the foundation of the world:

Some of that coming oneness in glory that brings unity and purpose can be seen now in this life, "that the world may know that You have sent Me"

22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (Jn. 17:20-24 NKJ)

Jesus' audience knew the difference in "oneness" being spoken of. To those who did not see the truth of God being One in Essence yet plural as to Persons, it seemed like blasphemy Jesus claim to be the only begotten Son of God one in essence with the Father.

No one tried to stone Jesus in John 17:20-24 because Jesus was NOT saying we would become God, live in God's substance equally with the Father and the Son.

In verse 24 He desires we live with Him beholding His glory wherever He may be.

AS for saying there is One God and One Lord, that does not contradict God is One Infinite Ocean of Essence in Three divine Persons, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Jesus has two natures, human and divine. He is the Christ, fully human Messiah the LORD Jesus, AND He is God's Only Begotten Son, Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

No Jesus said "that they may be one as we are one"
He then defined that like oneness =>I in them and you in me.
Are you God?

Elsewhere Jesus stated the Father was living in Him.

Further Jesus stated God was Spirit yet you state Jesus had a human spirit. Therefore He couldn't be fully God. Because as Jesus defined God is Spirit.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No Jesus said "that they may be one as we are one"
He then defined that like oneness =>I in them and you in me.
Are you God?

Elsewhere Jesus stated the Father was living in Him.

Further Jesus stated God was Spirit yet you state Jesus had a human spirit. Therefore He couldn't be fully God. Because as Jesus defined God is Spirit.

22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (Jn. 17:22-24 NKJ)

Just as the Father is in Christ doing the works "that the world may know that You have sent Me", so may we human beings be "one in purpose" "that the world may know God sent Jesus".

The unity effects an evangelistic result...It is not unity of essence, its unity of purpose.

That is why I don't believe English is your native language, simple concepts like "one in mind" get confused with "one in essence."

If Jesus was talking about "one in essence" then verse 24 doesn't make any sense.

HOW could Jesus say He desires we may be with Him where He is if we are one with Him in His essence?

He could not, therefore you are wrong.

 

[Randy]

22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (Jn. 17:22-24 NKJ)

Just as the Father is in Christ doing the works "that the world may know that You have sent Me", so may we human being be "that the world may know God sent Jesus".

The unity effects an evangelistic result...It is not unity of essence, its unity of purpose.

That is why I don't believe English is your native language, simple concepts like "one in mind" get confused with "one in essence."

I give you what Christ states. Nothing in what you posted stated anything different in what Jesus stated. You should know I believe Jesus was before the world began. You should know I believe the Father sent Him.

Christ stated the Father is the only true God.
Christ stated and defined oneness And it wasn't He and the Father share the same essence. It was the Father living in Him.
Christ defined god as Spirit. Yet you state He had a human spirit but was fully God

Yet at every turn you refuse to believe what Jesus states in favor of the doctrines of men.
You also state I made those things up and don't know or believe Jesus. (a violation of TOS)
You also continue to berate me, which I believe is a violation of TOS, with "you don't believe English is my native language."

I believe oneness as Jesus taught. The Father is living in Him and they are one in that manner. I believe God is how Jesus defined "Spirit". I believe the Father is the only true God as Jesus stated.

We are the seed of Abraham if we belong to Christ. That's oneness. If we belong to Jesus and we become unfaithful it is written He will remain faithful because He can't disown Himself. That's oneness. But we, our spirit, is not God.

Since you continue to reject what Jesus stated you will continue to reject what I state. I see no reason to continue this conversation.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I give you what Christ states. Nothing in what you posted stated anything different in what Jesus stated. You should know I believe Jesus was before the world began. You should know I believe the Father sent Him.

Christ stated the Father is the only true God.
Christ stated and defined oneness And it wasn't He and the Father share the same essence. It was the Father living in Him.
Christ defined god as Spirit. Yet you state He had a human spirit but was fully God

Yet at every turn you refuse to believe what Jesus states in favor of the doctrines of men.
You also state I made those things up and don't know or believe Jesus. (a violation of TOS)
You also continue to berate me, which I believe is a violation of TOS, with "you don't believe English is my native language."

I believe oneness as Jesus taught. The Father is living in Him and they are one in that manner. I believe God is how Jesus defined "Spirit". I believe the Father is the only true God as Jesus stated.

We are the seed of Abraham if we belong to Christ. That's oneness. If we belong to Jesus and we become unfaithful it is written He will remain faithful because He can't disown Himself. That's oneness. But we, our spirit, is not God.

Since you continue to reject what Jesus stated you will continue to reject what I state. I see no reason to continue this conversation.

You don't believe this scripture, you claim Jesus had a beginning, is a creature when John says the Word ALREADY WAS "in the beginning." Also John says "ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM" therefore you are wrong, Jesus couldn't be one of things created:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

Its not a violation of TOS to prove Scripture contradicts your teachings.

I enjoy proving you wrong according to Scripture, even though I have given up hope you will repent and believe Scripture.

I know others reading our discussion will easily see how wrong your ideas are, and how Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, believed by all Christians Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox, is what Scripture teaches.

 

[Randy]

You don't believe this scripture, you claim Jesus had a beginning, is a creature when John says the Word ALREADY WAS "in the beginning." Also John says "ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM" therefore you are wrong, Jesus couldn't be one of things created:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

Its not a violation of TOS to prove Scripture contradicts your teachings.

I enjoy proving you wrong according to Scripture, even though I have given up hope you will repent and believe Scripture.

I know others reading our discussion will easily see how wrong your ideas are, and how Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, believed by all Christians Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox, is what Scripture teaches.

I think Jesus is very clear. "the Father is the only true God"
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
God is Spirit.
That they may be one as we are one.


So I am going to explain it to you one more time.
Jesus, (His spirit), is the beginning of the creation of the Father and He is the firstborn of all creation. Before all things not meaning His God but certainly before the world began. Jesus's own spirit is not Deity.
At that time God was pleased that in His firstborn HIS fullness, (Deity),should dwell. So Jesus ,though not the Father, is the exact representation of Gods being. God
Then the creation was made through Him and for Him and by Him.
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

So while Jesus's spirit was formed by the Father not through Jesus its not the camel you swallow. He had a human spirit but is fully God. The Father is not the only true God.

The Son who was, (His spirit), was in the body God prepared for Him. And the Father was living in Him doing His work.

Jesus is Gods firstborn and the beginning of the creation of the Father.

It is written Israel is my firstborn.
But I tell you Gods firstborn would be a being not a people and such a being would make such a statement, "before Abraham was born I am.

Only in your own mind have you proven me wrong. I know my Lord and He knows me and you are mistaken.

For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

Likewise when it says everything was created through Christ it does not mean His spirit which was formed by the Father Himself.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So Jesus...is the exact representation of Gods being. God

I agree. As God's being never had a beginning, as Jesus is the EXACT representation of God's being, He is God without a beginning.

Thank you for proving Orthodox Trinitarian Theology correct. Jesus cannot be one of the things He created, He could not create Himself:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:15-17 NKJ)

In Christ all things exist. That makes Him God equally with the Father:

Paul further describes Jesus as the first-born of all creation. From the Arians of the early church to the Jehovah’s Witnesses of our own day, those who would deny our Lord’s deity have sought support from this phrase. They argue that it speaks of Christ as a created being, and hence He could not be the eternal God. Such an interpretation completely misunderstands the sense of prōtotokos (first-born) and ignores the context.

Although prōtotokos can mean firstborn chronologically (Luke 2:7), it refers primarily to position, or rank. In both Greek and Jewish culture, the firstborn was the son who had the right of inheritance. He was not necessarily the first one born. Although Esau was born first chronologically, it was Jacob who was the “firstborn” and received the inheritance. Jesus is the One with the right to the inheritance of all creation (cf. Heb. 1:2; Rev. 5:1–7, 13).

Israel was called God’s firstborn in Exodus 4:22 and Jeremiah 31:9. Though not the first people born, they held first place in God’s sight among all the nations. In Psalm 89:27, God says of the Messiah, “I also shall make him My first-born,” then defines what He means—“the highest of the kings of the earth.” In Revelation 1:5, Jesus is called “the first-born of the dead,” even though He was not the first person to be resurrected chronologically. Of all ever raised, He is the preeminent One. Romans 8:29 refers to Him as the firstborn in relation to the church. In all the above cases, firstborn clearly means highest in rank, not first created.

There are many other reasons for rejecting the idea that the use of first-born makes Jesus a created being. Such an interpretation cannot be harmonized with the description of Jesus as monogenēs (“only begotten,” or “unique”) in John 1:18. We might well ask with the early church Father Theodoret how, if Christ was only-begotten, could He be first-begotten? And how, if He were first-begotten, could He be only-begotten? How could He be the first of many in His class, and at the same time the only member of His class? Yet such confusion is inevitable if we assign the meaning “first created” to “firstborn.” Further, when the prōtotokos is one of the class referred to, the class is plural (cf. Col. 1:18; Rom. 8:29). Yet, creation is singular. Finally, if Paul meant to convey that Christ was the first created being, why did he not use the Greek word prōtoktistos, which means “first created?”

Such an interpretation of prōtotokos is also foreign to the context—both the general context of the epistle and the specific context of the passage. If Paul were here teaching that Christ is a created being, he would be agreeing with the central point of the Colossian errorists. They taught that Christ was a created being, the most prominent of the emanations from God. That would run counter to his purpose in writing Colossians, which was to refute the false teachers at Colossae.

Interpreting prōtotokos to mean that Christ is a created being is also out of harmony with the immediate context. Paul has just finished describing Christ as the perfect and complete image of God. In the next verse, he refers to Christ as the creator of everything that exists. How then could Christ Himself be a created being? Further, verse 17 states, “He is before all things.” Christ existed before anything else was created (cf. Micah 5:2). And only God existed before the creation.

Far from being one of a series of emanations descending from God, Jesus is the perfect image of God. He is the preeminent inheritor over all creation (the genitive ktiseōs is better translated “over” than “of”). He both existed before the creation and is exalted in rank above it. Those truths define who Jesus is in relation to God. They also devastate the false teachers’ position. But Paul is not finished—his next point undermines another false teaching of the Colossian errorists.-MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (1992). Colossians (pp. 45–47). Moody Press.

 

[Randy]

I agree. As God's being never had a beginning, as Jesus is the EXACT representation of God's being, He is God without a beginning.

Thank you for proving Orthodox Trinitarian Theology correct. Jesus cannot be one of the things He created, He could not create Himself:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:15-17 NKJ)

In Christ all things exist. That makes Him God equally with the Father:

Paul further describes Jesus as the first-born of all creation. From the Arians of the early church to the Jehovah’s Witnesses of our own day, those who would deny our Lord’s deity have sought support from this phrase. They argue that it speaks of Christ as a created being, and hence He could not be the eternal God. Such an interpretation completely misunderstands the sense of prōtotokos (first-born) and ignores the context.

Although prōtotokos can mean firstborn chronologically (Luke 2:7), it refers primarily to position, or rank. In both Greek and Jewish culture, the firstborn was the son who had the right of inheritance. He was not necessarily the first one born. Although Esau was born first chronologically, it was Jacob who was the “firstborn” and received the inheritance. Jesus is the One with the right to the inheritance of all creation (cf. Heb. 1:2; Rev. 5:1–7, 13).

Israel was called God’s firstborn in Exodus 4:22 and Jeremiah 31:9. Though not the first people born, they held first place in God’s sight among all the nations. In Psalm 89:27, God says of the Messiah, “I also shall make him My first-born,” then defines what He means—“the highest of the kings of the earth.” In Revelation 1:5, Jesus is called “the first-born of the dead,” even though He was not the first person to be resurrected chronologically. Of all ever raised, He is the preeminent One. Romans 8:29 refers to Him as the firstborn in relation to the church. In all the above cases, firstborn clearly means highest in rank, not first created.

There are many other reasons for rejecting the idea that the use of first-born makes Jesus a created being. Such an interpretation cannot be harmonized with the description of Jesus as monogenēs (“only begotten,” or “unique”) in John 1:18. We might well ask with the early church Father Theodoret how, if Christ was only-begotten, could He be first-begotten? And how, if He were first-begotten, could He be only-begotten? How could He be the first of many in His class, and at the same time the only member of His class? Yet such confusion is inevitable if we assign the meaning “first created” to “firstborn.” Further, when the prōtotokos is one of the class referred to, the class is plural (cf. Col. 1:18; Rom. 8:29). Yet, creation is singular. Finally, if Paul meant to convey that Christ was the first created being, why did he not use the Greek word prōtoktistos, which means “first created?”

Such an interpretation of prōtotokos is also foreign to the context—both the general context of the epistle and the specific context of the passage. If Paul were here teaching that Christ is a created being, he would be agreeing with the central point of the Colossian errorists. They taught that Christ was a created being, the most prominent of the emanations from God. That would run counter to his purpose in writing Colossians, which was to refute the false teachers at Colossae.

Interpreting prōtotokos to mean that Christ is a created being is also out of harmony with the immediate context. Paul has just finished describing Christ as the perfect and complete image of God. In the next verse, he refers to Christ as the creator of everything that exists. How then could Christ Himself be a created being? Further, verse 17 states, “He is before all things.” Christ existed before anything else was created (cf. Micah 5:2). And only God existed before the creation.

Far from being one of a series of emanations descending from God, Jesus is the perfect image of God. He is the preeminent inheritor over all creation (the genitive ktiseōs is better translated “over” than “of”). He both existed before the creation and is exalted in rank above it. Those truths define who Jesus is in relation to God. They also devastate the false teachers’ position. But Paul is not finished—his next point undermines another false teaching of the Colossian errorists.-MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (1992). Colossians (pp. 45–47). Moody Press.

Clearly you don't agree to all that I stated about the Son so we can agree to disagree.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Clearly you don't agree to all that I stated about the Son so we can agree to disagree.

Pastor John MacArthur totally destroyed your eisegesis on "firstborn".

Disagree isn't the word I would use.

I have "disproven" your "statements" about Christ having a beginning, not being truly human, not being One in essence with the Father so He is also the True God, equally with the Father.

There is no agreement between us. I will always disprove error.

I pray you repent, confess Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and so have life in His name:

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:31 NKJ)

 

[Randy]

Pastor John MacArthur totally destroyed your eisegesis on "firstborn".

Disagree isn't the word I would use.

I have "disproven" your "statements" about Christ having a beginning, not being truly human, not being One in essence with the Father so He is also the True God, equally with the Father.

There is no agreement between us. I will always disprove error.

No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," Says the LORD. (Isa. 54:17 NKJ)

I don't know John MacArthur. I do know Jesus and John M. didn't destroy anything. "You" will always disprove error? You didn't disprove Jesus. "The Father is the only true God and His God" "The oneness He taught" "That God is Spirit"

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't know John MacArthur. I do know Jesus and John M. didn't destroy anything. "You" will always disprove error? You didn't disprove Jesus. "The Father is the only true God and His God" "The oneness He taught" "That God is Spirit"

Pastor John MacArthur, Grace Community Church. Excellent Church Sun Valley California. I've been there lots of times, great fellowship of believers.

Youtube has lots of his sermons.

Christians have debated and rejected your objections to historic trinitarianism, because they aren't valid or sound.

I haven't asked you to define your terms. Perhaps that was a mistake. What do you mean "God is Spirit?" Is He a spirit like the angels?

 

[Randy]

Pastor John MacArthur, Grace Community Church. Excellent Church. Youtube has lots of his sermons.

Christians have debated and rejected your objections to historic trinitarianism, because they aren't valid or sound.

I haven't asked you to define your terms. Perhaps that was a mistake. What do you mean "God is Spirit?" Is He a spirit like the angels?

Is that what you think Jesus meant?
God is Spirit and I would define that Spirit's nature as Divine, eternal, Holy, Truth
Not a human spirit.
Also there is only One Spirit as stated and its not human.

Do I need to define "only" true God?

Is He is error are you going to prove Him wrong because nothing can stand against your words? Are you taking a stand against the Son of the Most High?
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Is that what you think Jesus meant?
God is Spirit and I would define that Spirit's nature as Divine, eternal, Holy, Truth
Not a human spirit.
Also there is only One Spirit as stated and its not human.

Do I need to define "only" true God?

What do you mean by "spirit". Angels are spirits, humans have spirit. Is God's Spirit different or the same or only like angels or humans?

In other words, is God sitting on a Throne surrounded by other spirits? Is that how you picture God?

You say Jesus' spirit came down from heaven and possessed the body of Jesus for little while. What precisely do you mean by that?

Is His spirit in his body now? Does He still have a body? Is His Spirit alongside the angel spirits worshipping God?

You say Jesus' spirit is created. Does that mean its of different substance than God's Spirit?

Or just smaller?

You haven't defined what you mean at all.

 

[Randy]

What do you mean by "spirit". Angels are spirits, humans have spirit. Is God's Spirit different or the same or only like angels or humans?

In other words, is God sitting on a Throne surrounded by other spirits? Is that how you picture God?

You say Jesus' spirit came down from heaven and possessed the body of Jesus for little while. What precisely do you mean by that? Is His spirit in his body now? Does He still have a body? Is His Spirit alongside the angels worshipping God?

You haven't defined what you mean at all.

The Nature of the Spirit of God is different then all other beings.
Eternal, Divine, Holy, Truth

And there is only one such Spirit
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Therefore you state Jesus had a human spirit so I assume you mean His spirit does not have the nature of the Spirit of God and would not be the one Spirit of God. Is that how you define your terms? Human spirit

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Nature of the Spirit of God is different then all other beings.
Eternal, Divine, Holy, Truth

And there is only one such Spirit
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Therefore you state Jesus had a human spirit so I assume you mean His spirit does not have the nature of the Spirit of God and would not be the one Spirit of God. Is that how you define your terms? Human spirit

I need to understand what you mean by Spirit first.

So God's Spirit is unique. How big is it?

And you haven't explained how Jesus' Spirit came down from heaven and possessed Jesus' body. Did it stay there or return to heaven when He died? Is it in heaven now? Does it reside with the angel spirits in heaven?