Forum Poll

[GodsGrace]

Which is why the word Paul wrote to Timothy in a trustworthy saying about times of having less faith (faithless), not about being unfaithful (not faithful).

I guess what I said was missed:
"Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28 He gave no conditions to recipients of eternal life in order to never perish."

So, how many conditions did Jesus list in order for recipients not to perish can be found in John 10:28? None.

Here's what Jesus meant. He gives eternal life to His sheep, who have been previously identified as believers in Him: Jn 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47. And as a result of being given eternal life, the RESULT of being a recipient of eternal life, they shall never perish.

I know OSNAS doesn't believe this.

So, please explain how John 10:28 doesn't really say that the result of being given eternal life is never perishing.

The list being referred to from your post cannot mean a condition for never perishing unless it can be shown that John 10:28 isn't about eternal security.

So a clear exegesis is in order. Please proceed.

You've forgotten to answer a very simple question:
If a born again believer returns to a life of sin, thus not obeying Jesus,
Is he still saved?
Thanks for a reply.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's exactly what He said.


Well, we'll see.


Well, if one ignores what Jesus plainly said in v.25: "I told you, and you DO NOT BELIEVE." That's the key. Not hearing and following. From v.27, Jesus was describing what His sheep DO; that is, they hear Him and follow Him. These 2 things are NOT said to be conditions for anything.
Even a casual reading of the verse shows that.

v.28 is real clear. Jesus is the One who gives eternal life, and those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

If there were conditions for recipients to meet in order to never perish, Jesus would HAVE HAD TO mention them in v.28 for it to be a true statement.

So, how many conditions did Jesus mention in v.28 in order to never perish?

Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep.
His sheep are those who hear Him and follow Him, as you yourself have stated above.
If I don't follow Him, am I still one of His sheep?

 

[FreeGrace]

You've been listening to YouTube.
I've been checking it out lately.
The silliness I find there is appauling.
To think that Jesus died for these false teachers.
They will have much to answer for.

Everyone will.

Salvation and discipleship go hand in hand.

No, discipleship follows salvation. No one is saved through discipleship. So please share any verse that supports your claim.

If you are not a disciple, you are not a follower of Jesus.
If you are not a follower of Jesus, you are not saved.

Jesus said otherwise. He spoke of those who "believed for a while (followers), but in time of temptation/testing, they fell away". Luke 8:13 By believing, they were clearly saved.

He did not come to abolish the law, but to complete it.
Mathew 5:17

Actually, the word is "fulfill". The Law was already complete. He added nothing to the Law. It was the Jewish nation that didn't fulfill the Law.

Which is why Jesus had to come to earth and live a perfect life, in order to die for all of humanity and provide salvation, since the Law didn't provide salvation.

That's what He did.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep.
His sheep are those who hear Him and follow Him, as you yourself have stated above.

Please don't forget HOW the sheep become His sheep. By "entering through Him" per 10:9. This is faith in Christ.

There are many moral humans who follow Jesus, including Mother Theresa, who wrote a book about following Jesus, whose theology lacks what the Bible teaches about salvation. So there are many unbelievers (unsaved) who follow the example of Jesus: feed the poor, clothe the naked, house the homeless, who are no closer to heaven than the drunkard who beats his wife and children or fornicators etc.

If I don't follow Him, am I still one of His sheep?

The real question is: did you ever believe in Him, thus receiving from Him the free gift of eternal life? If so, then YES, OHSAHS.

Or, once His sheep, always His sheep.

Are there any verses about any sheep becoming goats? No.

God's plan has no reversals. If there is disagreement, please share where they are.

 

[GodsGrace]

Everyone will.


No, discipleship follows salvation. No one is saved through discipleship. So please share any verse that supports your claim.


Jesus said otherwise. He spoke of those who "believed for a while (followers), but in time of temptation/testing, they fell away". Luke 8:13 By believing, they were clearly saved.


Actually, the word is "fulfill". The Law was already complete. He added nothing to the Law. It was the Jewish nation that didn't fulfill the Law.

Which is why Jesus had to come to earth and live a perfect life, in order to die for all of humanity and provide salvation, since the Law didn't provide salvation.

That's what He did.

Fulfill means to make complete, to bring to completion an old testament prophecy.

If you’re thinking with an inquisitive mind, you should immediately ask yourself, “Okay, that sounds clear, but what does ‘fulfill’ mean?” The interpretations of the meaning of “fulfill” in Matthew 5:17 basically fall into three categories.174
1) Some understand that Jesus came to do the Law, and this is a statement that His actions fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law. The problem is that Jesus’ teaching is in view here, not His actions. Notice at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, the people were “amazed by his teaching because he taught them like one who had authority, not like their experts in the law” (Matthew 7:28b-29).
2) Others understand that Jesus fulfills the Law in that He completes it. This is to say they understand the word translated “fulfill” to mean complete in the sense of revealing its true intentions. This option is certainly there, but there is more to “fulfill” in Matthew than just explaining the Law.175
3) Others suggest that Jesus came to support the Law, that is, to tell people to obey it.
4) A fourth and preferable option becomes clear as we look at how Matthew has used the idea of fulfillment up to this point.
Beginning in the first chapter of his Gospel, Matthew has taken great pains to point to Jesus as the Christ, who came in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Jesus did not descend from heaven unannounced to a people who had no inkling of His appearance. No! For Matthew, the birth and early life of Christ were predicted centuries before His arrival, and when He appeared, He fulfilled all that was spoken of Him.
Look carefully at the first four chapters of Matthew:
1. 1:22-23. “This all happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled: ‘Look a virgin will conceive and bear a son, and they will call him Emmanuel…’” [a quotation from Isaiah 7:14].
2. 2:4-6. Speaking of Herod the Great: “After assembling all the chief priests and experts in the Law he asked them where the Christ was to be born. ‘In Bethlehem of Judea,’ they said, ‘for it is written this way by the prophet: ‘And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are in no way least among the rulers of Judah, for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel’” [a quotation from Micah 5:2].
3. 2:15. “Then he got up, took the child and his mother at night, and went to Egypt. He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: ‘I called my Son out of Egypt’” [a quotation from Hosea 11:1].
4. 2:17. “Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: ‘A voice was heard in Ramah weeping and loud wailing, Rachel weeping for her children, and she did not want to be comforted, because they were gone’” [a quotation from Jeremiah 31:15].
5. 3:3. Speaking of John the Baptist: “For he is the one who was spoken of by Isaiah the prophet, ‘The voice of one crying out in the wilderness, prepare the way for the Lord, make his paths straight’” [a quotation from Isaiah 40:3].
6. 4:12-16. “Now when Jesus heard that John had been imprisoned, he went into Galilee. While in Galilee, he moved from Nazareth to make his home in Capernaum by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali, so that what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled: ‘Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way by the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles – the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light, and on those sitting in the region and the shadow of death a light has dawned’” [a quotation from Isaiah 9:1-2].
Notice that Matthew has been laying the foundation for this fulfillment theme throughout the first four chapters, so when Jesus says He came to fulfill, Matthew wants us to understand the statement in light of what has come before. That is to say that the Law and the Prophets pointed to Him prophetically. So how could people think that He came to get rid of the Law and the Prophets? They point to Christ, and Jesus is aware that His ministry fulfills all that was spoken before.

source...https://bible.org/seriespage/14-not-abolish-fulfill-matthew-517-20

 

[GodsGrace]

Please don't forget HOW the sheep become His sheep. By "entering through Him" per 10:9. This is faith in Christ.

There are many moral humans who follow Jesus, including Mother Theresa, who wrote a book about following Jesus, whose theology lacks what the Bible teaches about salvation. So there are many unbelievers (unsaved) who follow the example of Jesus: feed the poor, clothe the naked, house the homeless, who are no closer to heaven than the drunkard who beats his wife and children or fornicators etc.


The real question is: did you ever believe in Him, thus receiving from Him the free gift of eternal life? If so, then YES, OHSAHS.

Or, once His sheep, always His sheep.

Are there any verses about any sheep becoming goats? No.

God's plan has no reversals. If there is disagreement, please share where they are.

You still haven't answered my question.
If you cannot, there's no reason to continue.

 

[GodsGrace]

Which is why the word Paul wrote to Timothy in a trustworthy saying about times of having less faith (faithless), not about being unfaithful (not faithful).

Faithless and
Not faithful means exactly the same.

 

[chessman]

Faithless and
Not faithful means exactly the same.

They are different words in the Text. For a reason.
Stainless Steel stains less than pure steel. But it definitely stains.

Faith that is less faithfull (full faith) than Christ’s faith is ... well ... faith that is less full than Christ’s. Simple.

 

[GodsGrace]

They are different words in the Text. For a reason.
Stainless Steel stains less than pure steel. But it definitely stains.

Faith that is less faithfull (full faith) than Christ’s faith is ... well ... faith that is less full than Christ’s. Simple.

This is not what you originally said.
you differentiated between faithless and not faithful.
There is no difference.
There is no context.
Faithless = not faithful

 

[FreeGrace]

You still haven't answered my question.

I've been paying attention to a possible exegesis of John 10:28 from you. Maybe I missed your question, but I'm sure everyone knows my position, which comes from what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Once a person is given eternal life, they shall never perish. There are no conditions that recipients must meet in order to never perish.

If you cannot, there's no reason to continue.

What about the refusal to exegete John 10:28? Or is it just an inability.

Either way, if an exegesis of that single verse isn't forthcoming, there is no reason to continue.

 

[FreeGrace]

Fulfill means to make complete, to bring to completion an old testament prophecy.

If you’re thinking with an inquisitive mind, you should immediately ask yourself, “Okay, that sounds clear, but what does ‘fulfill’ mean?” The interpretations of the meaning of “fulfill” in Matthew 5:17 basically fall into three categories.174
1) Some understand that Jesus came to do the Law, and this is a statement that His actions fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law. The problem is that Jesus’ teaching is in view here, not His actions. Notice at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, the people were “amazed by his teaching because he taught them like one who had authority, not like their experts in the law” (Matthew 7:28b-29).
2) Others understand that Jesus fulfills the Law in that He completes it. This is to say they understand the word translated “fulfill” to mean complete in the sense of revealing its true intentions. This option is certainly there, but there is more to “fulfill” in Matthew than just explaining the Law.175
3) Others suggest that Jesus came to support the Law, that is, to tell people to obey it.
4) A fourth and preferable option becomes clear as we look at how Matthew has used the idea of fulfillment up to this point.
Beginning in the first chapter of his Gospel, Matthew has taken great pains to point to Jesus as the Christ, who came in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Jesus did not descend from heaven unannounced to a people who had no inkling of His appearance. No! For Matthew, the birth and early life of Christ were predicted centuries before His arrival, and when He appeared, He fulfilled all that was spoken of Him.
Look carefully at the first four chapters of Matthew:
1. 1:22-23. “This all happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled: ‘Look a virgin will conceive and bear a son, and they will call him Emmanuel…’” [a quotation from Isaiah 7:14].
2. 2:4-6. Speaking of Herod the Great: “After assembling all the chief priests and experts in the Law he asked them where the Christ was to be born. ‘In Bethlehem of Judea,’ they said, ‘for it is written this way by the prophet: ‘And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are in no way least among the rulers of Judah, for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel’” [a quotation from Micah 5:2].
3. 2:15. “Then he got up, took the child and his mother at night, and went to Egypt. He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: ‘I called my Son out of Egypt’” [a quotation from Hosea 11:1].
4. 2:17. “Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: ‘A voice was heard in Ramah weeping and loud wailing, Rachel weeping for her children, and she did not want to be comforted, because they were gone’” [a quotation from Jeremiah 31:15].
5. 3:3. Speaking of John the Baptist: “For he is the one who was spoken of by Isaiah the prophet, ‘The voice of one crying out in the wilderness, prepare the way for the Lord, make his paths straight’” [a quotation from Isaiah 40:3].
6. 4:12-16. “Now when Jesus heard that John had been imprisoned, he went into Galilee. While in Galilee, he moved from Nazareth to make his home in Capernaum by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali, so that what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet would be fulfilled: ‘Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way by the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles – the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light, and on those sitting in the region and the shadow of death a light has dawned’” [a quotation from Isaiah 9:1-2].
Notice that Matthew has been laying the foundation for this fulfillment theme throughout the first four chapters, so when Jesus says He came to fulfill, Matthew wants us to understand the statement in light of what has come before. That is to say that the Law and the Prophets pointed to Him prophetically. So how could people think that He came to get rid of the Law and the Prophets? They point to Christ, and Jesus is aware that His ministry fulfills all that was spoken before.

source...https://bible.org/seriespage/14-not-abolish-fulfill-matthew-517-20

This is what I said:
"Actually, the word is "fulfill". The Law was already complete. He added nothing to the Law. It was the Jewish nation that didn't fulfill the Law.

Which is why Jesus had to come to earth and live a perfect life, in order to die for all of humanity and provide salvation, since the Law didn't provide salvation.

That's what He did."

The claim that Jesus "completed" the Law doesn't make any sense. It had been in use since Moses. It was ALREADY complete.

What Jesus did was fulfill the Law. How about taking my points that addressing each one with an explanation how they are incorrect.

From Matt 5:17

NT:4137 pleroo (play-ro'-o); from NT:4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:

What Jesus did was to EXECUTE the Law. He lived it perfectly. None of the other meanings make any sense regarding Matt 5:17.

But, since there is disagreement, please explain wht specifically was missing from the Law that Jesus "completed". I hope you'll answer, because I cannot imagine what was missing that Jesus had to come to earth to finish or complete.

I'll even get the popcorn. Can't wait.

 

[gr8grace3]

But for many, its just a very simple confusion, which takes a bit of explaining.
Which is.....they do not understand that Salvation and Discipleship, are NOT the same.

Great post brother. And this^^ is KEY to advancing or maturing in Christ. Saved at the moment we believe, Acts 16:31. Salvation is a done deal. Perfected. Sealed. Held by His power.

The sad thing is.......If we believe that our life is about gaining/keeping/maintaining salvation After His free grace through faith........Our LIFE of works will be wood,hay and stubble. Or Works that create ashes in the end.

Loss of salvation/maintaining salvation is dead works and has no place in the Christian way of life.
Rom 8:16~~
New American Standard Bible
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

 

[GodsGrace]

Great post brother. And this^^ is KEY to advancing or maturing in Christ. Saved at the moment we believe, Acts 16:31. Salvation is a done deal. Perfected. Sealed. Held by His power.

The sad thing is.......If we believe that our life is about gaining/keeping/maintaining salvation After His free grace through faith........Our LIFE of works will be wood,hay and stubble. Or Works that create ashes in the end.

Loss of salvation/maintaining salvation is dead works and has no place in the Christian way of life.
Rom 8:16~~
New American Standard Bible
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

What would you say is the time lag between acceptance/salvation and discipleship?

 

[Jim Parker]

Salvation is a done deal. Perfected. Sealed. Held by His power.

Salvation is not a "done deal" until you die having been faithful since you repented and believed.
1Co 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you,
which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

 

[chessman]

Salvation is not a "done deal" until you die

What makes you think it’s a done deal once you die?

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said:
Salvation is a done deal. Perfected. Sealed. Held by His power.

Salvation is not a "done deal" until you die having been faithful since you repented and believed.
1Co 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you,
which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Since Jesus way prior to Paul's writing stated that those who believe possess eternal life (John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40, 47) and that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, why make the attempt to use Paul's writing as a contrast to what Jesus said?

1 Cor 15:1-2 doesn't actually support OSNAS. The "if" condition is possession (not "holding fast" as misunderstood) of the gospel message (that word which I preached to you) UNLESS th person "believed in vain" (without reason).

So, "without reason" means to believe anything other than IN CHRIST for salvation.

The problem is when the 2 English words "hold fast" is taken to mean that the person him/herself has to "hold on" to their salvation. But the single Greek word means "possess".

And one possesses salvation when they believe in Christ for salvation. The same time they are given eternal life.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Jesus guaranteed salvation. John 10:28, the single BEST verse that clearly states eternal security.

The second sentence above doesn't make sense. It seems the point is that individuals themselves are guaranteeing salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth. All who believe in eternal security, which Jesus taught, believe in it because of what Jesus taught.


OK, so now it comes down to a "best chance" for salvation? Really?

God's plan of salvation for humanity has NOTHING to do with chance. Good heavens!

God's plan of salvation for humanity has EVERYTHING to do with God's GRACE and man's non-meritorious response of receiving the free gift of eternal life by faith in Christ.

You keep OMITTING the verse immediately preceding John 10: 28 which is John 10: 27. Let us read what they say together

Jesus guaranteed salvation. John 10:28, the single BEST verse that clearly states eternal security.

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand

Ironically I wish to same thing that you do. Nobody can snatch those believers who elect to FOLLOW Jesus--- not just believe .

Brother FG i wish to ask you something ? I hope you HATE your father, wife and children and your own life. Because if you DON'T then I fear you and everyone else how does not hate them are NOT Christ's disciple and therefore likely to be condemned --- according to Christs own words in Luke 14: 26
Luke 14:26 ►

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.
Why did Jesus say this FG? All that is needed is simple belief to be saved, right? Then why all this complication, and difficult asks of Christ---- going as far as to hate our parents, wife and our own life?

​

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Salvation is not a "done deal" until you die having been faithful since you repented and believed.
1Co 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you,
which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Amen Jim. Great point there

 

[UberMink]

1 John 4:7-8 says "Beloved, let us love one another for love is from God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God for God is love."

 

[gr8grace3]

What would you say is the time lag between acceptance/salvation and discipleship?

Could be many years or never. A true disciple of Christ is never going to preach loss of salvation or maintaining salvation. A true Disciple knows that He/She is eternal saved/secure IN Christ. If we are out of fellowship........we could start to doubt and wonder. Still saved, but possible dicipline and loss of rewards for those believers who stop TRUSTING in HIM.

Rom 8:16~~New American Standard Bible
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,