Forum Poll

[GodsGrace]

I believe those that fall away are those with intellectual faith not saving faith . They grasp salvation with their head and not their heart. That is not to say that intellectual faith cannot lead to saving faith. In fact I believe many of us go through this process; we 'know' God with our minds before we know Him with our hearts.

I know what you're talking about CWB.
The problem with Mathew is that Jesus is saying that the word was received with joy.
When a person hears the word of God and accepts it, he is filled with joy. As he is filled with that joy, it brings him to endeavor to live for Christ. We don't know if this could last a month or a lifetime.

Then Jesus Himself says that the joy was only temporary because tribulation comes along and the person falls away.

He falls away from God, from Christ, from the joy of living for God,,,he falls away from the faith he had.

Adam fell away. What better example. He knew God and spoke to Him.
Adam disobeyed and fell away. He fell away from God's friendship, he fell away from the relationship he had with God - he was banished from the Garden the same way those who fall away will be banished from heaven.

 

[chessman]

but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John 3:36 NIV

What makes you think this is referring to the born again person?

Wouldn’t the fact that God’s wrath remains on these persons indicate, ... well, that God’s wrath remains upon them?
Do you think the Texts says God’s wrath returns upon these persons?

Therefore by much more, having now been declared-righteous by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath through Him. For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, by much more having been reconciled, we shall be saved by _____ life.​

Romans 5:9-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 5:9-10&version=DLNT

A. our
B. His

 

[civilwarbuff]

Please keep the context within the framework of what the poll actually states.

It is within the threads framework.
I mentioned nothing about tares and wheat but instead show how Jesus deals with those who claim to know Him but don't. I thought it was pretty succinct and did not need further explanation.....guess I was wrong.

 

[WIP]

I agree with this idea. Here's the problem I have with the OP (I voted no by the way)

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and still be saved.

No. Because you aren't born again if you ever reject Jesus as Lord and Savior. You were a tare among the wheat. A goat among the sheep. You were a fake.

I voted no because it's impossible to be born from above and then walk away. A person who walks away was never born from above.

My position on eternal security combines arguments from both OSAS and OSNAS. Both positions have truth and error in them. The real truth is in the middle.

God saves and God keeps.
Truly saved people are changed inside out by the Power of the Spirit of God.
This change is manifest in words and deeds.
Fruit always follows in a true believers life.
1 Corinthians 13 'Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous;
love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly;
it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails; ............................ '
1 Corinthians 13:4-8 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/1CO.13.4-8

'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. '
Galatians 5:22-26 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/GAL.5.22-26

The Spirit will generate fruit in the lives of TRUE believers. Marginal believers or those who are on fire but their flame burns out are not regenerated. Do people walk away from faith? Yes. But they were never among us to begin with.

Must we endure to the end? Yes and we will because He who began a good work in you IS ABLE to complete it! And He will!

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Colossians 1:10 (NASB)
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every goodwork and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Ephesians 2:10 (NASB)
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Jude 1:24 (NASB)
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

I know there are plenty of verses that seem to indicate one can "lose" salvation. But you can't have Jesus keeping you from stumbling and then you also stumble at the same time. God saves. God keeps. We are HIS workmanship. Not our own. In our own strength, we will fail. In HIM, we cannot fail. God is at work in us. It is HIS work that keeps us and that prompts us unto obedience and good works.

God loves a broken and contrite heart:
Psalms 51:17 (NASB)
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

David was a murderer, adulterer, liar, and a host of other things. But he was a man after God's own heart. Why? When confronted with his sin, he was broken over it and confessed with a repentant heart.

Matthew 7:17 (NASB)
So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

Good trees are those truly saved. Bad trees are the unsaved. Many unsaved go to church each week but they are bad trees - goats - tares!

If God changes your heart, your heart will be truly changed. And no one (not even yourself) can snatch you out of His Holy Hands!

Hi Papa;
Can you share how one can know for sure they are born again? Those that profess the OSAS view often refer to it as eternal security but how can one truly know they are incapable of rejecting the One who saves or saved them? It seems this is no more secure than the OSNAS view.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Good point.
Paul said because I believe he knew fake believers and those believers who were continuing to live a sinful lifestyle after ACCEPTING Christ as Savior could lose their salvation. The following verses in Hebrews 6: 6-8 are clear that it would be impossible for such believers to be saved
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

I have repeatedly mentioned in my numerous posts that obedience is as important in salvation doctrine as believing. Faith without obedience is dead and will be burned , the book of Hebrews says in above verses.
I also exhort this churches and pastors who are teaching the false doctrine of easy believism ( you believe you're saved) stop it ASAP and teach correct salvation doctrine. I'm not willing to accept this heresy ( in my opinion) being taught rampantly. I will strongly oppose it, as to me it's very plainly unbiblical. Christ emphasized a lot on obedience, which was however unceremoniously removed in the easy believism doctrine. All that's left is "you believe you're saved. I guarantee that"
I bet this doctrine really pleases the devil who must love millions of unproductive ineffective believers who are not scared of living a sinful lifestyle because they're content in their "guaranteed salvation"
Obedience won't give em anything extra. "Why must I be obedient" they ask. "I'm already saved!" Works don't save , faith does, is their weak argument , thereby they justify all sin and sloth. Guys do you see the serious danger in this heretical doctrine ?

To that I would ask them, "What is it you believe?" If they say they believe in Jesus I say, "What about Jesus do you believe?" From there I lead them to what Jesus said. It's not just about belief. The demons believe and tremble! Truth faith in Christ will result in actions and a changed life. It's the difference from being a follower and a fan. A follower dies to self and follows the teachings of Christ. A fan goes to church but his/her life doesn't reflect the image of Christ. One is truly saved, the other is not.

 

[Papa Zoom]

It's not an oxymoron if one believes that a born again believer CAN reject Christ at some point and thus become an unbeliever.

I happen to be one of those, as you know.
If it were not possible, Paul and the other writers, would not have made such a point of showing us how to live a life worthy of God's love.

Ephesians 5:1-10 and even beyond this, Paul is exhorting us to live a life free of immorality, or greed, coarse jesting, or impurity, or idolater has an inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

I often hear those who believe in eternal security assure me that they do not mean that just because they believe this, they know they must also believe in living a good life. However, if you speak to them long enough, they'll admit that even if they return to a life of sin, they will STILL be saved. This goes against everything the bible teaches.

OSAS is akin to a license to sin since it requires nothing of us.
Also, I'd like to say that this idea of eternal security did not exist with the Apostles,
the Apologetic Fathers or the Early church Fathers.

It's a recent idea which is heretical in nature.

The problem as I see it is in the definition of eternal security. We are given two choices in the poll. The problem is, there are more than two extremes of this issue. There is also a middle ground which is rarely represented. You're either OSAS (which I am not in the definition used here) or OSNAS (which I am also not).

 

[Papa Zoom]

If the apostles believed obedience wasn't needed for salvation, why did they choose to lay down their lives ( in painful n horrendous ways) for the gospel? They could've easily hidden or fled . Why were they obedient to the point of death? Are rules of salvation different for different people?

Obedience isn't "necessary" for salvation as if it has power to save or keep saved. Obedience naturally and always follows true regeneration since such is the Work of God Himself! It's all God's doing. I cannot live this life of Christ apart from the Holy Spirit in me, guiding and giving me the strength. It's a daily death I die in order to live for Him.

It's a mystery in a way because I, Papa Zoom, am doing the doing. Or so it seems. But in reality it's by the power of God that I do what I do. Good works? Fruits unto repentance? Yes! But all because of God's work in my life. None of it is of myself. That is, my flesh. It's the Spirit of Power at work with my spirit that causes me to obey and act.

 

[JLB]

It is within the threads framework.
I mentioned nothing about tares and wheat but instead show how Jesus deals with those who claim to know Him but don't. I thought it was pretty succinct and did not need further explanation.....guess I was wrong.

Exactly.

This poll is not about those who claim to know Him but don’t.

It’s about whether born again Christians can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved.


JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

Ok. So you don’t know when we are born again, whether when we believe or later on.

Fair enough.

It's an act of God. If at the moment of profession of faith the Holy Spirit comes into my life and changes me, yes, then.

Immediately upon a confession of faith a person should be seeking the what next question. What do I do now? Well, get baptized for one. What else? Learn to pray. Read the Bible. Find a mentor. Learn how this walk works. Some new believers need their hands held, others do not. It's why we have community in the body; to help each other learn and grow and remain faithful. We encourage each other in the faith for example. At least in theory this is how it's supposed to work.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Then Jesus Himself says that the joy was only temporary because tribulation comes along and the person falls away.

Again, because it is not a Holy Spirit saving faith but only an intellectual faith.

Adam fell away. What better example. He knew God and spoke to Him.
Adam disobeyed and fell away. He fell away from God's friendship, he fell away from the relationship he had with God - he was banished from the Garden the same way those who fall away will be banished from heaven.

Well, Adam did not 'fall away'. IIRC nowhere does it say that Adam denied God nor did God turn His back on Adam. But with the sin of Adam came a separation of God from man since God cannot abide the presence of sin. Adam and Eve were removed from the garden so they would not also eat of the tree of life.
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”
Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.
Gen 3:24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Exactly.

This poll is not about those who claim to know Him but don’t.

It’s about whether born again Christians can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved.


JLB

It is part and parcel......unless you know how to tell the difference between the 2?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Your poll is a trap the way it is worded.
I had to give a lot of thought before I answered.
In all fairness, you should have worded it in a simpler manner.
Not everyone has your brains JLB.

I do not agree it's a "trap." It just doesn't offer all the possible alternatives to the question. The question itself is impossible for me to answer as it is stated since it doesn't even represent my actual view. So in that sense the question itself is limited.

 

[MCoop]

[QUOTE="JLB, post: 1434644, member: 2772"

How many believe that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in which they depart from faith in Him, and turn to the antichrist, or Allah, or some other god, and confess him as Lord and Savior, and still be saved on the Day of Judgement, when Christ returns?
JLB

-

Faith does not save you.
So, if you are trusting in your Faith, or pursuing this as your means to get yourself into heaven, then you ARE NOT TRUSTING IN CHRIST AS "THE WAY", AND IN FACT you are as lost as a monkey in a mall, come judgement day.

Faith, is the MEANS, whereby God saved you.

Let me give you a simple analogy.

Have you ever pumped gas into your car?
Ok, think of it like this..
The Gas in the Pump, is Salvation, is God's grace....and YOU are the empty tank, that's lost, hell bound, and unregenerated.
The HOSE, is FAITH.
The HOSE< is the device that connects, the gas to the tank, and once its in the tank then its FULL.
Full = born again.
Done deal.
Now, you as the full tank, are as full of JESUS and GOD as you are going to get., and you are "SEALED" this way, by the Holy Spirit.
You didnt do any of that...and you cant undo it......All you can do is ither behave as you should, or behave as you should not, but you are not able to change what is in your TANK.
Now, you think on that, for a while....JLB


See, God saved you using Christ's blood to forgive you, and in doing so, God also gives you His very righteousness as "the gift of righteousness".
Salvation, is not deeds you do after you are saved, as so many can't seem to understand.
Salvation is what HAPPENED TO YOU, THAT GOD DID FOR YOU, AND THAT IS NOT CONNECTED TO YOUR BEHAVIOR AFTER HE DOES IT.
ITS DONE.
DONE.
DONE.
"FINISHED".

A person is saved, because God has recreated them by New Birth, using the power of the Holy Spirit to regenerate them, INTO, His family.
So, the same thing that GOT YOU THERE, (GOD) IS THE ONLY THING THAT CAN KEEP YOU THERE. (GOD)
"God who began a good work in you (SALVATION) will be faithful to COMPLETE IT"""
THAT IS NOT YOU !!!!
HE DOES IT.
SALVATION, GRACE, BEING BORN AGAIN, IS A PERMANENT SITUATION, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
GOD DID IT FOR YOU, AND HE GETS THE CREDIT.
NOT YOU.
SO, OUT GO YOUR WORKS, YOUR ENDURING, AND ALL THE NONSENSE YOU CAN WRITE ABOUT IT, by twisting Paul's theology to fit your heresy.

Once you are saved, THEN ITS DONE..... because you have ONCE Believed, and then you are become the property of God by NEW Birth.
"born again".
You are "bought with a price", and that price is the sacrifice of Jesus, and this has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
AND NEVER WILL.
And you cant undo this, JLB.....no matter how much you obsess on trying to figure out a way, by kicking this dead HERETICAL horse all over Christian forums, instead of doing something worthwhile.
YOU'RE wasting your time, and you do it all the time.
Its a dead end, Its a useless pursuit, its fruitless, and its harmful to others here and anywhere else you preach Galatians 1:8, and you really need to find something else to be fanatical about, as all you are doing over and over and over is proving that you are a Galatians 1:8 with a vengeance....
You have this very queer and very heretical idea that because you can cut and paste 765 verses written by Paul, that you are actually preaching what he preached, YET, you actually are in total opposition to Grace.
Total.



<K><[/QUOTE]
Exactly right Kidron. Faith is the means by which God saves in Christ. Your post is spot on! Salvation is all of grace and conditioned solely in Christ Jesus. What civilwarbuff posted on John Gills commentary is spot on as to the correct biblical understanding on this issue. Papa zoom has also hit on the correct understanding of one being truly saved in Christ and what that produces in a believer

 

[Papa Zoom]

Continue in the faith.

Continue to have faith.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:21-23

• if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

One of the big things Paul had to deal with, is Jews coming behind him when he left a Church, and teaching the Gentiles they had to keep the law of Moses and become circumcised in order to be saved.

That would be the definition of saved by works.


Paul called this “another gospel”.


I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9


Again


You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4


If a person is removed or severed from Christ, are they still saved?



JLB

yes but continue by the power of God and not by our fleshly efforts. If not by the power of God, we will fail. If the power of God isn't present, it's unlikely that such a person was truly born again. They are a goat among the sheep.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You make this very personal...
But there are those, even on different forums, who believe they could sin and still be saved. I don't mean one sin - we all sin and must be forgiven. They believe they could deny Jesus, live a life of sin, and still be saved because ONE TIME they "accepted" Jesus for their salvation. Accepting Jesus also means listening to Him and seeing Him as Lord and as an example of how we should live.

As to works...yes, works are included in salvation for the simple reason that they show our salvation. If there are no "works", the chances are that we are not really saved.
(what we do for God is a work).

My best answer has always been King David
He would sin, then repent, sin, then repent, over and over.
But the Holy Spirit was with him and he knew he would dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I’m glad to here you say that.

That’s a great attitude.

If I sin, I repent.

JLB

Always! I live daily, asking God to reveal to me my sin where it occurs and to help me live according to the Spirit! Renewed each day. Which is why I'm up early and into the Bible and prayer. Everyday. Otherwise I operate in my own strength (which is really operating in weakness since my own strength is flawed.)

 

[civilwarbuff]

yes but continue by the power of God and not by our fleshly efforts. If not by the power of God, we will fail. If the power of God isn't present, it's unlikely that such a person was truly born again. They are a goat among the sheep.

Even the Pharisees understood that.....
Act 5:33 When they heard this, they were enraged and wanted to kill them.
Act 5:34 But a Pharisee in the council named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while.
Act 5:35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you are about to do with these men.
Act 5:36 For before these days Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
Act 5:37 After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered.
Act 5:38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail;
Act 5:39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!” So they took his advice,

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I have explained this point dozens of times, and will do it again here.

However, if this turns out to be another trolling session of yours, where you just call names, and ad hominem and argue with plain and clear truth from the word of God, then I will be forced to ignore you.





Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7


Prodigal Son:

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32


If a brother or sister wanders from Christ, and becomes lost, someone must go to them, and turn them back, or that person will remain lost and receive eternal death.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.


That is what the Bible teaches about one of the Lord’s people becoming lost.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.




JLB

I've read right here on this forum and I've met people who got saved and had no one to turn to.
No discipleship.
They wondered for years as they dwelled in their sin.
But those people had the Holy Spirit and somewhere along the way people taught them the truth and their salvation became alive to them.
The Holy Spirit will not let go of people who belong to him.

 

[JLB]

Obedience isn't "necessary" for salvation as if it has power to save or keep saved.

Obedience to the Gospel is the only way a person is saved.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8

• and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

again

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

• they have not all obeyed the gospel.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I've read right here on this forum and I've met people who got saved and had no one to turn to.
No discipleship.
They wondered for years as they dwelled in their sin.
But those people had the Holy Spirit and somewhere along the way people taught them the truth and their salvation became alive to them.
The Holy Spirit will not let go of people who belong to him.

That would be a good example of my life.

So today I am teaching the truth of God’s word so born again Christians who have wandered and become lost, will repent and return to Him.