Forum Poll

[JLB]

Please believe 2 Cor 5:14-19.
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.


It should be obvious to everyone that those who desert Christ/become faithless lose their confidence of their salvation. But how does that translate into losing salvation? No one has or can explain that.


Why is it that OSNAS fails to understand anything about the issue of fellowship with Christ?

The key, as always, is what the Bible SAYS. Of course there will be great variation of things that are believed within any community. That's true even of OSNAS.

So the point is moot.

I know you believe born again Christian’s who reject Jesus Christ, and believe in the antichrist as lord, are still saved.


You posted “yes” in the poll.

Now all I’m asking you to do, is post the scriptures that teach this.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36 NIV



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Your welcome to change your answer if you like.

FreeGrace says a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ, and turn to the antichrist as lord and still be saved.

I say this because Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Apparently what He said is just too hard for some to believe.

But that's nothing new. We have seen this from Scripture as well:
John 6:
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

The Bible gives the simple condition for eternal life, which is to believe.

And Jesus was crystal clear about how TO NEVER PERISH. Become a recipient of eternal life. John 10:28

If somewhere later in life, a person does not want to continue believing, and meeting this simple condition, then they can choose to reject Jesus Christ and believe in the antichrist, Or Allah, or Maitriea, as their lord and savior.

That's covered by Rom 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The choice is yours.
JLB

Yep. Whether to believe what Jesus said, or not. And He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

 

[JLB]

I say this because Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Apparently what He said is just too hard for some to believe.

But that's nothing new. We have seen this from Scripture as well:
John 6:
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.


And Jesus was crystal clear about how TO NEVER PERISH. Become a recipient of eternal life. John 10:28


That's covered by Rom 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Yep. Whether to believe what Jesus said, or not. And He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

All you need to do is show us the scripture that teaches us born again Christian’s who reject Jesus Christ and believe in the antichrist as lord are still saved.


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36



If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Only if it can be shown that the Bible considers a believer who only believes for a while (Luke 8:13) becomes an "unbeliever" that you'd have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

Such a view is like going from being born again to being unborn. That is worse than silly. And has no justification for such a view."

It may seem silly to you, but it's a very serious matter.

Where is the proof that a born again person can become unborn? Serious question. To even suggest such a thing in the physical realm IS quite silly. So why wouldn't the same attitude in the spiritual realm NOT be considered worse than silly?

In Mathew 13:21 Jesus Himself says that it's possible for one to believe only temporarily. In verse 20 the hearer receives the word with joy, but it was only temporary and when affliction arises, he FALLS AWAY. What did the hearer fall away from if not the salvation of hearing the word and receiving it with joy.

Why is it so difficult to understand that what one is falling away from is his own faith, NOT salvation?

Mathew 10:33 Jesus says that whoever will deny Him, Jesus will also deny before His Father in heaven. Did Jesus give a time frame? No. Because the denying could happen from the beginning and the person was never saved, or it could happen after believing and the person, once again, falls away and will be denied by Jesus before the Father.

Well, it's that's the correct meaning of this verse, you've created a huge problem. Because Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Just the receiving of the gift of eternal life means they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why all the resistance to this?

I dare to bring up Adam and Eve. They were friendly with God while they obeyed Him. When they disobeyed Him, they were banished from the Garden. This should be enough of a warning for everyone and make them desire to obey God.

Uh, apples to oranges. None of us were created without sin. We all gots a sin nature. They didn't. So the "analogy" is quite flawed.

Teaching that God could be disobeyed and still receive heaven is heretical teaching.

I guess this would apply to Jesus' teaching then, because He guaranteed that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish, and He gave NO CONDITIONS to His guarantee.

What I post is not my opinion. I posted many statements from church fathers regarding what was believed in the church before 1,500AD.

Again, what is important is what Scripture says, not just old dead guys.

Can it be that all theologians were incorrect and only now do we have the truth?

You've only quoted a few of them. Did you interview all of them? Have you studied the anabaptists and their views?

Can it be that cheap grace believers are correct and everyone else has been wrong?

This is just a cheap shot itself. Apparently the words of Rom 5:20 haven't reached you yet. "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,"

From the OSNAS camp, it seems rather clear to me that this verse isn't believed.

Cheap grace believers is the name given to those who think they can live a life of sin and still enter heaven. The sinful will not enter heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
NASB

The error is to assume that "inheriting the kingdom" means "entering the kingdom".

Romans 8:35-39
This is correct. Nothing will separate us from the love of God. As long as we DO love God. WE ourselves are the only power that can separate us from God...when we stop loving Him and serving Him.
You'll notice in verse 37 it says that we will be CONQUERORS through Him who loves us in all these afflictions.
Who does God love? He loves those who love His Son enough to bring them to heaven.

Please quote any verse that supports your last statement. He brings ALL who have believed in Him to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-11
Again. This goes against what you believe.
It tells us to be sober and awake. It tells us that we, the saved, are of the light.

It seems v.10 was ignored. "He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

This passage is a comparison of lifestyles; living in the light or living in the dark. Or being awake vs being asleep. So v.10 refutes OSNAS completely and supports OSAS completely.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes FG. Jesus said "those who believe HAVE eternal life.
NOT those who BELIEVED. (past tense)

Nope. This is an abuse of grammar. The point is that WHEN one believes (currently) they possess eternal life. Please quit trying to twist the verse into saying something it doesn't.

Jesus' point was that when one believes, they have eternal life in John 5:24. What is DOESN'T SAY is that one must continue to believe in order to keep eternal life, which is one of the variants of OSNAS. And wrong.

We must believe at the time of our death and be living the commandments Jesus left us when we die in order to inherit the kingdom.
Acts 20:32
"And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified."

Those who do not live according to God's standards are not sanctified and will not be given the inheritance.

Correct. But your understanding of what this inheritance is about is in error. This inheritance is about eternal rewards, which seems to have no place in OSNAS theology. Yet, the teaching about rewards is all over the NT.

 

[FreeGrace]

As to works...yes, works are included in salvation for the simple reason that they show our salvation.

Is this a suggestion that God needs to see one's works in order to know they have believed? Sure sounds that way.

 

[FreeGrace]

If we believe we are saved.

OK, let's finish the thought.

We are born again.
We are regenerated.
We are justified.
We are forgiven.
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Now, if salvation can be lost, then all of these things must also be lost.

So, please quote at least 1 verse for each of these things that are said to be lost if one ceases to believe.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Only if it can be shown that the Bible considers a believer who only believes for a while (Luke 8:13) becomes an "unbeliever" that you'd have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

Such a view is like going from being born again to being unborn. That is worse than silly. And has no justification for such a view."

Where is the proof that a born again person can become unborn? Serious question. To even suggest such a thing in the physical realm IS quite silly. So why wouldn't the same attitude in the spiritual realm NOT be considered worse than silly?


Why is it so difficult to understand that what one is falling away from is his own faith, NOT salvation?


Well, it's that's the correct meaning of this verse, you've created a huge problem. Because Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Just the receiving of the gift of eternal life means they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Why all the resistance to this?


Uh, apples to oranges. None of us were created without sin. We all gots a sin nature. They didn't. So the "analogy" is quite flawed.


I guess this would apply to Jesus' teaching then, because He guaranteed that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish, and He gave NO CONDITIONS to His guarantee.


Again, what is important is what Scripture says, not just old dead guys.


You've only quoted a few of them. Did you interview all of them? Have you studied the anabaptists and their views?


This is just a cheap shot itself. Apparently the words of Rom 5:20 haven't reached you yet. "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,"

From the OSNAS camp, it seems rather clear to me that this verse isn't believed.


The error is to assume that "inheriting the kingdom" means "entering the kingdom".


Please quote any verse that supports your last statement. He brings ALL who have believed in Him to heaven.


It seems v.10 was ignored. "He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

This passage is a comparison of lifestyles; living in the light or living in the dark. Or being awake vs being asleep. So v.10 refutes OSNAS completely and supports OSAS completely.

Please stick to the question of the OP.

This isn’t another meaningless debate about OSAS VS The scriptures.

It’s a question.

A poll.


You polled yes.


So now present us the scriptures that teach us a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and believe in the antichrist as lord and savior, and still be saved.


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36



If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12



JLB

 

[WIP]

You will know false prophets by their fruits. Likewise, the good tree (those truly saved) can be recognized by their fruits as well. And a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

'"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. ' Matthew 7:15-20 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/MAT.7.15-20

'My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. ' John 15:8 https://www.bible.com/bible/100/JHN.15.8

The problem is, even an atheist can do good works. I believe I am saved but there's no mistaking that I could at any time decide to do something that isn't good. Even John tells us that if we say we are without sin we are a liar which is also a sin.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please explain the difference between "lose their salvation" and "become lost", if there is a difference.

So far, all I'm seeing is double talk from your posts."

I have explained this point dozens of times, and will do it again here.

However, if this turns out to be another trolling session of yours, where you just call names, and ad hominem and argue with plain and clear truth from the word of God, then I will be forced to ignore you.

That would be the easy way out, of course. To ignore is to avoid having to engage and defend one's theories. And these claims are false, as anyone who reads these posts knows.

Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

How does this explain the difference between "lose their salvation" and "become lost"?

Prodigal Son:

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32

If a brother or sister wanders from Christ, and becomes lost, someone must go to them, and turn them back, or that person will remain lost and receive eternal death.

OK. So "becoming lost" results in loss of salvation. But it seems your view keeps denying that, that there is something different between them.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.

If one believes, they are described as saved. Right? So, if one who has believed, then "wanders off", they end up in eternal death. That means unsaved. So none of this explains the supposed difference between "lose their salvation" and "become lost".

That is what the Bible teaches about one of the Lord’s people becoming lost.

No it doesn't. But the problem is the failure to explain the DIFFERENCE between the two phrases.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.
JLB

And even this fails to explain any difference between the 2 phrases.

So I'll take it as there is NO DIFFERENCE between losing salvation and becoming lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus was careful with His words.

Yes, He was. In John 10:28 He gave no conditions for recipients of eternal life to fulfill in order to never perish.

And He was very careful in John 3:15,1636, 5:24, 6:47 to say that those who believe possess eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

No scriptures here that say a person can reject Jesus Christ and believe in another lord, and still be saved, which is your position and the context from the OP.

I never said so either. What I have consistently said is what Jesus said in John 10:28. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. No conditions on recipients. Which isn't what OSNAS thinks.

So far you are the only one who has voted yes to this, yet you have provided no scripture to validate your position.

I did, and continue to do so. John 10:28 has no conditions on recipients in order to never perish.

 

[JLB]

I never said so either

You said “Yes” to the poll question.

How many believe that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in which they depart from faith in Him, and turn to the antichrist, or Allah, or some other god, and confess him as Lord and Savior, and still be saved on the Day of Judgement, when Christ returns?



So now present us the scriptures that teach us a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and believe in the antichrist as lord and savior, and still be saved.


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36



If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I know you believe born again Christian’s who reject Jesus Christ, and believe in the antichrist as lord, are still saved.

You posted “yes” in the poll.

Now all I’m asking you to do, is post the scriptures that teach this.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36 NIV
JLB

The FACT that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life is the proof.

The problem for OSNAS is the INSERTING of conditions where there AREN'T ANY CONDITIONS.

 

[Papa Zoom]

~sigh~ I had higher hopes this time around.

I'm seeing problems. Dial it back. We've covered all this ground before. Just stay your own case positively and when you offer a dispute on a claim, show why. Stop demanding of others (as in show me this from Scripture). Just state your case and the chips will fall where they fall.

Otherwise this thread is heading in a tentative direction.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please stick to the question of the OP.

I answered the poll question.

This isn’t another meaningless debate about OSAS VS The scriptures.

Of course not. Because OSAS ISN'T "versus" the Scriptures. It's IN the Scriptures.

It’s a question.
A poll.

You polled yes.
So now present us the scriptures that teach us a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and believe in the antichrist as lord and savior, and still be saved.

What is meaningless is the repeated request, when it's been provided at the outset.

According to John 10:28, recipients of eternal life are given NO CONDITIONS in order to never perish, which seems to be the opinion of OSNAS.

 

[Papa Zoom]

How many believe that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in which they depart from faith in Him, and turn to the antichrist, or Allah, or some other god, and confess him as Lord and Savior, and still be saved on the Day of Judgement, when Christ returns?

This is a loaded question which is unfair. If someone believes that a person can turn to a false god or the antichrist and be saved they are nuts. Not truly born again believer would ever do that (IMHO). That question is unfair.

[Can} a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

This is the question that isn't asked. To this I can say NO!

 

[JLB]

Can} a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

This is the question that isn't asked. To this I can say NO!

Freegrace disagrees with you since he answered yes in this poll and our one on one debate.


Ok. Thank you for you definitive answer.

Maybe you can start a poll with that question.


I will be glad to participate if you will have me.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

The problem as I see it is in the definition of eternal security. We are given two choices in the poll. The problem is, there are more than two extremes of this issue. There is also a middle ground which is rarely represented. You're either OSAS (which I am not in the definition used here) or OSNAS (which I am also not).

How many definitions could there be?
What is yours?
If you believe, at whatever point, you're saved.
If you don't believe, at whatever point, you're not saved.
John 3:3-5
Jesus said that we must be born from above.
There are certain rules to being born from above...we have to follow our Lord's commandments.

When we stop following them, it'll be because we've lost our faith and have stopped believing. Nowhere in scripture does it assure me that I will still be saved.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Ok. Thank you for you definitive answer.

Maybe you can start a poll with that question.

I will be glad to participate if you will have me.

JLB

I just wanted to point out the poll is slanted away from my actual view. And far be it from me to start another OSAS thread! May it never be!!!