Forum Poll

[JLB]

I answered the poll question.

Yes I know.

I had to remind you of your answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is a loaded question which is unfair. If someone believes that a person can turn to a false god or the antichrist and be saved they are nuts. Not truly born again believer would ever do that (IMHO). That question is unfair.

[Can} a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

This is the question that isn't asked. To this I can say NO!

What about the evanelist who trained and mentored Billy Graham? Yes, THE Billy Graham. I am referring to Charles Templeton.

When Billy Graham was just starting out as an evangelist, CT took him under his wing. They toured Europe together and roomed together.

It seems quite unlikely that CT would have been an evangelist of the gospel, led many to Christ, all the while not believing what he was preaching.

In fact, what derailed his faith was the teaching of a young earth, when scientific observation indicates a very old earth. From that, he decided that the Bible couldn't be trusted.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes I know.

I had to remind you of your answer.

No you didn't. I never forgot my answer.

 

[JLB]

Of course not. Because OSAS ISN'T "versus" the Scriptures. It's IN the Scriptures.

If it is then please prove it by posting the scriptures that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and believe in the antichrist as lord and savior and still be saved.



JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

How many definitions could there be?
What is yours?
If you believe, at whatever point, you're saved.
If you don't believe, at whatever point, you're not saved.
John 3:3-5
Jesus said that we must be born from above.
There are certain rules to being born from above...we have to follow our Lord's commandments.

When we stop following them, it'll be because we've lost our faith and have stopped believing. Nowhere in scripture does it assure me that I will still be saved.

I've stated it already earlier. At least tried to explain my thinking on what it means. I'll need to take some time and formulate a more definitive response. Here's the short of it:

God does the saving. Not of anything we can do at any point.
God does the keeping. He is able to perfect us and He will.
Works and obedience always follow true belief. Even if it takes a while. God is the "Hound of Heaven" (I think that's CS Lewis or Chesterton) and will not forsake those whom He has called.
To be born from above means you will be and are being changed from above.
A new creature in Christ follows the Lord, even unto death.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, because it is not a Holy Spirit saving faith but only an intellectual faith.

Well, Adam did not 'fall away'. IIRC nowhere does it say that Adam denied God nor did God turn His back on Adam. But with the sin of Adam came a separation of God from man since God cannot abide the presence of sin. Adam and Eve were removed from the garden so they would not also eat of the tree of life.
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”
Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.
Gen 3:24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

I'd say being banished from the Garden and having curses put on one demonstrates a true separation from God. Adam wasn't sent to work the ground, he was in charge of the ground even in the garden - he was the caretaker. God said Adam had to sweat to get his food. "In toil you shall eat of it". Genesis 3:17b

If one has a good relationship with God and then the relationship ends, that seems to me to be saved, and then with the end of the relationship, loss of salvation.
One must be in good rapport with God to be saved.

 

[Papa Zoom]

If it is then please prove it by posting the scriptures that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and believe in the antichrist as lord and savior and still be saved.



JLB

Please quit asking this question and demanding Scripture of the other. I'll answer this plainly: There is no such verses that make this sort of claim. Not even one.

To all others, please quit demanding others provide specific Scriptures for this or that. Ahhhhhhhhh! Just state your case.

I hate getting "assignments" from other posters. (now asking and not demanding is different - okay to ask for a Scripture if done right but the demanding thing is setting a negative tone)

 

[JLB]

God does the saving. Not of anything we can do at any point.

I always thought our part was to believe.

 

[Papa Zoom]

One must be in good rapport with God to be saved.

I don't know what you mean here. This just doesn't sound right.

 

[GodsGrace]

My best answer has always been King David
He would sin, then repent, sin, then repent, over and over.
But the Holy Spirit was with him and he knew he would dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

Did King David ever deny God?
Even though God would not allow him to build the temple and left this for Solomon to do, King David never denied God. He always wanted to serve Him. For every sin we must repent. We don't lose our salvation every time we sin - that would be foolish.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I always thought our part was to believe.

Yes, that is true. And how that works exactly is not completely clear. Is believing from us - as in our own power? I say no. It's another grace from God. True, I don't sit back and do nothing. But that which I do I'm able to do because of the power of the Spirit at work in my life. Left on my own I'd be totally lost in sin. The flesh is weak. Only by the power of God can we overcome the flesh!

 

[GodsGrace]

They are emotional hearers .
They have fleeting impressions, and when tribulation comes upon them, their human weaknesses cause them fall away.
If you don't have the Holy Spirit, then you don't have the strength to withstand the enemy.

I agree with the last sentence.
With your belief, it would be necessary to absolutely know if one is born again and I don't believe we can ever know the status of a person's soul; this is only for God to know. I've gone through 2 Peter 2:20 many times. That is a clear indication that one who believed became lost. Verse 21 clearly states that they had known the way of righteousness.

 

[JLB]

Please quit asking this question and demanding Scripture of the other. I'll answer this plainly: There is no such verses that make this sort of claim. Not even one.

To all others, please quit demanding others provide specific Scriptures for this or that. Ahhhhhhhhh! Just state your case.

I hate getting "assignments" from other posters. (now asking and not demanding is different - okay to ask for a Scripture if done right but the demanding thing is setting a negative tone)

Never the less, he answered yes to the Forum Poll, because he believes in his answer.

I just didn’t want other scriptures to be cited over and over, that do not address the poll question.


As I said early on, I would just as soon as people just answer the poll without responding.


The only reason I’m asking him to provide scripture to validate his answer is because he will just derail this thread and turn it into another OSAS thread.


At this point you have come in and taken over this thread claiming it’s not a fair question and so forth and have answered for FreeGrace so I will just bow out and turn the thread over to you.

Adios.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Totally false.


Actually, it's stated in the opposite terms. There's nothing we can do to lose salvation.

Where did Jesus insert ANY condition on never perishing to recipients of eternal life in John 10:28? Please advise.

Mathew 25:34-46
Mathew 7:23

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If I remember my gospels right. There is one point that Jesus sends out His disciples. (I think this is before he chose the 12 apstoles). This send out there were 72 sent to nearby towns and they could heal the sick and cast out demons while they spread the news that the Kingdom of Heaven is near.

Anyways when they returned Jesus told them that they shouldn't be happy about the spiritual gifts they had as much as they should be happy of being citizens of heaven.

Later Jesus gave a hard teaching and many disciples left. Jesus turned to the 12 at that time and asked if they were going to leave too or not. They said no.

Here is the question from this (again if I'm remembering the bible verses correctly). If 72 disciples were called citizen of Heaven, then that should mean they were saved. But it sounds like many of them or all of them left Jesus. Were they saved and walked away? Or if they weren't saved what can be said of their spiritual gifts.

The second issue is with Judas who betrayed Jesus. He was among the 12 apstoles, and it doesn't see. Like he recieved less spiritual gifts then the other 12 disciples. Was he saved and turned away? Or was he never a citizen of heaven?

My only answer is that only God knows our current state and our final destination. It's something to fear. If even an apstole can be lost, can any of us be at the same risk? If the disciples were sent out with the abiblth to heal, but some still turned away is there any assurance to know if we are really saved or not?

Based on this I would say to strive to cling to Jesus. We are weak but He is strong. OSAS and OSNAS don't answer the underlying issue of who is saved and who will turn away.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you cleraly demonstrating how OSNAS fails to read verses correctly.

John 10:28 says nothing about your statement. Please read the verse again. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Obviously in order to be a recipient of eternal life, one must have believed.
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 John 5:13.


So please find and quote ANY verse that actually says this opinion.


No, it has always depended upon the work of Christ, which must be believed. Your statement makes your action of believing what saves. Which doesn't. It's not the verb (believe) that saves us; it's the noun (object of our believing - Jesus Christ) who saves.

I would seriously question the reliability of those who have been teaching you if that's your view.


It is immaterial what those guys believed. What must be believed is what the Bible SAYS. And it sure doesn't say that salvation can be lost.

They were the closest to the Apostles, and some knew an apostle or someone that was taught by an apostle. They knew much more about what Jesus and Paul taught than you and I ever will:

Ignatius, A.D. 110

Pseudo-Barnabas, A.D. 120 - 130

Pseudo-Clement, A.D. 100 - 150

So, "closest to the apostles", huh? None of these guys lived during the times of the apostles.

And...none of them wrote Scripture.[/QUOTE]
I guess you believe "these guys" knew less than the guys who lived in the 1800's and came up with these salvation theories. Those guys back then were just plain stupid in your opinion? Ignatius knew John the Apostle.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please define "the church". That's a pretty broad brush.

I'm really stumped as to why any of these guys are held above what the Bible actually says.

I will stay with Scripture.


Justin, c. A.D. 155

Hermas, c. A.D. 160

Irenaeus, A.D. 183 - 186

Basil, c. A.D. 362
Anyone is free to believe whatever they want to believe.

I want to (and do) believe Scripture.

I'm stumped as to why someone living in modern times would seem to know more about what Jesus taught than the ECF.
Church is the original church. The one that came out of The Way, as it was called in Acts. The Universal Church. The church that has always existed.
When would YOU say the church begain?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Never the less, he answered yes to the Forum Poll, because he believes in his answer.

I just didn’t want other scriptures to be cited over and over, that do not address the poll question.


As I said early on, I would just as soon as people just answer the poll without responding.


The only reason I’m asking him to provide scripture to validate his answer is because he will just derail this thread and turn it into another OSAS thread.


At this point you have come in and taken over this thread claiming it’s not a fair question and so forth and have answered for FreeGrace so I will just bow out and turn the thread over to you.

Adios.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I've stated it already earlier. At least tried to explain my thinking on what it means. I'll need to take some time and formulate a more definitive response. Here's the short of it:

God does the saving. Not of anything we can do at any point.
God does the keeping. He is able to perfect us and He will.
Works and obedience always follow true belief. Even if it takes a while. God is the "Hound of Heaven" (I think that's CS Lewis or Chesterton) and will not forsake those whom He has called.
To be born from above means you will be and are being changed from above.
A new creature in Christ follows the Lord, even unto death.

Your view is much the same as Allen Wynne 's.

God does the saving. This is true.
God does the keeping.
God will only do the keeping if we agree to allow Him.
Because we are born again does not take free will away from us.
God helps us with the keeping, but we must also do our part and obey Him.
Sanctification takes two.
When we stop trying, we become lost.
Thus, a born again believer can wander away and become lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

If I remember my gospels right. There is one point that Jesus sends out His disciples. (I think this is before he chose the 12 apstoles). This send out there were 72 sent to nearby towns and they could heal the sick and cast out demons while they spread the news that the Kingdom of Heaven is near.

Anyways when they returned Jesus told them that they shouldn't be happy about the spiritual gifts they had as much as they should be happy of being citizens of heaven.

Later Jesus gave a hard teaching and many disciples left. Jesus turned to the 12 at that time and asked if they were going to leave too or not. They said no.

Here is the question from this (again if I'm remembering the bible verses correctly). If 72 disciples were called citizen of Heaven, then that should mean they were saved. But it sounds like many of them or all of them left Jesus. Were they saved and walked away? Or if they weren't saved what can be said of their spiritual gifts.

The second issue is with Judas who betrayed Jesus. He was among the 12 apstoles, and it doesn't see. Like he recieved less spiritual gifts then the other 12 disciples. Was he saved and turned away? Or was he never a citizen of heaven?

My only answer is that only God knows our current state and our final destination. It's something to fear. If even an apstole can be lost, can any of us be at the same risk? If the disciples were sent out with the abiblth to heal, but some still turned away is there any assurance to know if we are really saved or not?

Based on this I would say to strive to cling to Jesus. We are weak but He is strong. OSAS and OSNAS don't answer the underlying issue of who is saved and who will turn away.