Forum Poll

[FreeGrace]

If it is then please prove it by posting the scriptures that a born again Christian can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and believe in the antichrist as lord and savior and still be saved.
JLB

I've already done that. John 10:28 gives NO CONDITIONS for recipients in order to never perish. It's that simple.

The question in the poll includes a very emotional appeal, but truth is truth. "Neither things present, nor things to come" per Rom 8:38 can separate the child of God from His love.

So John 10:28 proves that there are no conditions for those given eternal life. But anyone is free to accept or deny that fact.

 

[for_his_glory]

Many have and will continue to lose faith in Christ and never find it again.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

It is Gods grace through faith that we are saved, but what are we saved from is not being cast into the lake of fire as we have the promise of eternal life through Jesus to all who believe and walk in faith. What we are saved from is Gods great wrath falling on us in the end of days during the seven trumpets sounding. What we are to endure until the end is the principalities of this world, trials, tribulations that need to be making our faith stronger as we build upon it and those who work iniquity as being seducing spirits that teach doctrines of devils that have and always will cause many to depart from the faith they began with. We have to guard ourselves that we are not caught up in the foolishness of the world, Ephesians 6:10-18.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[FreeGrace]

I always thought our part was to believe.

But the action of believing is not what saves, which is, I think, the point that Papa Zoom was making.

Nothing of our actions saves us. That would make us our own saviors.

It is God alone who saves. And guess who it is He saves?

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Now, one can either believe they are saved by their believing, or they can believe that God saves those who believe.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"There's nothing we can do to lose salvation.

Where did Jesus insert ANY condition on never perishing to recipients of eternal life in John 10:28? Please advise."

Mathew 25:34-46
Mathew 7:23

How do these verses advise on conditions for never perishing? Please advise.

 

[FreeGrace]

So, "closest to the apostles", huh? None of these guys lived during the times of the apostles.

And...none of them wrote Scripture.

I guess you believe "these guys" knew less than the guys who lived in the 1800's and came up with these salvation theories. [/QUOTE]
Please cease with this disingenuousness.

Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

The ONLY BASIS for never perishing is to receive eternal life, per John 10:28. No one has shown otherwise. Nor explained John 10:28 to show Jesus wasn't saying that there are no conditions.

Those guys back then were just plain stupid in your opinion? Ignatius knew John the Apostle.

None of the dates assigned to these guys shows that any of them lived before John died. As I recall, with Ignats, only 1 year was posted; 110 AD.

 

[civilwarbuff]

If I remember my gospels right. There is one point that Jesus sends out His disciples. (I think this is before he chose the 12 apstoles). This send out there were 72 sent to nearby towns and they could heal the sick and cast out demons while they spread the news that the Kingdom of Heaven is near.

Anyways when they returned Jesus told them that they shouldn't be happy about the spiritual gifts they had as much as they should be happy of being citizens of heaven.

Later Jesus gave a hard teaching and many disciples left. Jesus turned to the 12 at that time and asked if they were going to leave too or not. They said no.

Here is the question from this (again if I'm remembering the bible verses correctly). If 72 disciples were called citizen of Heaven, then that should mean they were saved. But it sounds like many of them or all of them left Jesus. Were they saved and walked away? Or if they weren't saved what can be said of their spiritual gifts.

The second issue is with Judas who betrayed Jesus. He was among the 12 apstoles, and it doesn't see. Like he recieved less spiritual gifts then the other 12 disciples. Was he saved and turned away? Or was he never a citizen of heaven?

My only answer is that only God knows our current state and our final destination. It's something to fear. If even an apstole can be lost, can any of us be at the same risk? If the disciples were sent out with the abiblth to heal, but some still turned away is there any assurance to know if we are really saved or not?

Based on this I would say to strive to cling to Jesus. We are weak but He is strong. OSAS and OSNAS don't answer the underlying issue of who is saved and who will turn away.

How did these disciples view Jesus at this time? Did they view Him as the Son of God?.....the long awaited Messiah who would restore the kingdom to Israel? Or did they view Him as a prophet sent by God....but still just a man? John the Baptist questioned who He was, His own family thought him insane. Two very different standards. We can only speculate what the response would have been had they recognized Him for who He was.
We also have to consider the standard of salvation at that time; it was not something granted by a man walking the earth but by following Mosaic Law.....only the Law could 'save' a man. Only after the Resurrection was it clear to all who knew Him who He was and where the path to salvation really lies. Just my .

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm stumped as to why someone living in modern times would seem to know more about what Jesus taught than the ECF.

What is "ECF"? Please adivse.

Church is the original church. The one that came out of The Way, as it was called in Acts. The Universal Church. The church that has always existed.

It's taken many forms over the many centuries.

When would YOU say the church begain?

It's fairly clear that what I say doesn't matter much. So why the question?

My only focus has been on what Jesus SAID, which also doesn't seem to matter much.

If the verses used by OSNAS actually do support their view on loss of salvation, then the verses I quote demonstrate a serious FLAW in Scripture in that Scripture would be internally contradicted.

But that doesn't seem to faze some people.

But I reject such a notion. And John 10:28 is the CLEAREST STATEMENT ON ETERNAL SECURITY in the Bible.

So I care not a bit about what others after the writers of Scripture have said or written.

I place the very words of Jesus and the apostles WAY above anything said or written by those who followed.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your view is much the same as Allen Wynne 's.

God does the saving. This is true.
God does the keeping.
God will only do the keeping if we agree to allow Him.

Why didn't Jesus add this "condition" to what He said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28 then?

Because we are born again does not take free will away from us.

This seems to suggest that we have the power to unsave ourselves. Which is not taught in Scripture.

God helps us with the keeping, but we must also do our part and obey Him.
Sanctification takes two.

Where did this come from? Those guys listed previously? I really don't care what they say or write. I DO care very much what the Bible says.

When we stop trying, we become lost.

Oh, that's a good one. Sure sounds like trying to save oneself. That would mean whatever Christ did wasn't enough.

Thus, a born again believer can wander away and become lost.

Then Christ's cross work wasn't enough then, huh?

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess you believe "these guys" knew less than the guys who lived in the 1800's and came up with these salvation theories.

Please cease with this disingenuousness.

Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

The ONLY BASIS for never perishing is to receive eternal life, per John 10:28. No one has shown otherwise. Nor explained John 10:28 to show Jesus wasn't saying that there are no conditions.


None of the dates assigned to these guys shows that any of them lived before John died. As I recall, with Ignats, only 1 year was posted; 110 AD.[/QUOTE]

Why didn't Jesus add this "condition" to what He said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28 then?


This seems to suggest that we have the power to unsave ourselves. Which is not taught in Scripture.


Where did this come from? Those guys listed previously? I really don't care what they say or write. I DO care very much what the Bible says.


Oh, that's a good one. Sure sounds like trying to save oneself. That would mean whatever Christ did wasn't enough.


Then Christ's cross work wasn't enough then, huh?

Those guys are the ones that put the Bible together.
The one you reference and that they understood much better than you do.
P.S. it behooves us to know some history and respect those that guarded our faith.

 

[Papa Zoom]

What about the evanelist who trained and mentored Billy Graham? Yes, THE Billy Graham. I am referring to Charles Templeton.

When Billy Graham was just starting out as an evangelist, CT took him under his wing. They toured Europe together and roomed together.

It seems quite unlikely that CT would have been an evangelist of the gospel, led many to Christ, all the while not believing what he was preaching.

In fact, what derailed his faith was the teaching of a young earth, when scientific observation indicates a very old earth. From that, he decided that the Bible couldn't be trusted.

I know the story well. What was Templeton's faith grounded in? One man went left, the other right. One chose to trust God and the other himself.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Never the less, he answered yes to the Forum Poll, because he believes in his answer.

I just didn’t want other scriptures to be cited over and over, that do not address the poll question.


As I said early on, I would just as soon as people just answer the poll without responding.


The only reason I’m asking him to provide scripture to validate his answer is because he will just derail this thread and turn it into another OSAS thread.


At this point you have come in and taken over this thread claiming it’s not a fair question and so forth and have answered for FreeGrace so I will just bow out and turn the thread over to you.

Adios.JLB

I've not taken over. I'm trying to keep the old worn arguments from continuing to surface. I'll bow out as it was my intention to help but I can see I am not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why didn't Jesus add this "condition" to what He said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28 then?


This seems to suggest that we have the power to unsave ourselves. Which is not taught in Scripture.


Where did this come from? Those guys listed previously? I really don't care what they say or write. I DO care very much what the Bible says.


Oh, that's a good one. Sure sounds like trying to save oneself. That would mean whatever Christ did wasn't enough.


Then Christ's cross work wasn't enough then, huh?

You asked for conditions.
I gave you two verses.
You are not willing to accept the truth.
Is John 10 the only chapter you know?
I believe our conversation is over.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Your view is much the same as Allen Wynne 's.

God does the saving. This is true.
God does the keeping.
God will only do the keeping if we agree to allow Him.
Because we are born again does not take free will away from us.
God helps us with the keeping, but we must also do our part and obey Him.
Sanctification takes two.
When we stop trying, we become lost.
Thus, a born again believer can wander away and become lost.

Please do not tell Allen Wynne !!!

 

[Papa Zoom]

This is me

unless I'm quoted directly. ;)

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

How did these disciples view Jesus at this time? Did they view Him as the Son of God?.....the long awaited Messiah who would restore the kingdom to Israel? Or did they view Him as a prophet sent by God....but still just a man? John the Baptist questioned who He was, His own family thought him insane. Two very different standards. We can only speculate what the response would have been had they recognized Him for who He was.
We also have to consider the standard of salvation at that time; it was not something granted by a man walking the earth but by following Mosaic Law.....only the Law could 'save' a man. Only after the Resurrection was it clear to all who knew Him who He was and where the path to salvation really lies. Just my .

In the discussion of OSAS verses OSNAS, this is a kind of gray area. Who could be more saved then the disciples who were there at the same time Jesus was there? Who is more saved then those who performed healings when sent out by Jesus. Who is more saved then the Apstoles. Yet there are among each of those groups those who believed and turned away. Can they really be said that they weren't saved? If so then there is nothing to hold to for being saved. No one will ever really know till they part from this world and meet our maker. On the other hand if they really were saved but turned away, they were citizens of heaven and lost it in their turning away, then what can be said of that? Who among us today can say we are stronger a believer then those who heard Jesus and saw His miracles. Not just a witness but someone who did believe, but also turned away.

Paul writes on the importance of striving for God least we lose our reward. I think he meant it for all of us. Only God knows if we are saved, will be saved, or if we can or will fall away.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Did King David ever deny God?
Even though God would not allow him to build the temple and left this for Solomon to do, King David never denied God. He always wanted to serve Him. For every sin we must repent. We don't lose our salvation every time we sin - that would be foolish.

That's what some OSNAS people say quite a bit

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree with the last sentence.
With your belief, it would be necessary to absolutely know if one is born again and I don't believe we can ever know the status of a person's soul; this is only for God to know. I've gone through 2 Peter 2:20 many times. That is a clear indication that one who believed became lost. Verse 21 clearly states that they had known the way of righteousness.

I've explained away 2 Peter 2:20 many times.
You refuse to listen.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've explained away 2 Peter 2:20 many times.
You refuse to listen.

The person's believed and then stopped believing.
If you don't believe you can't be saved.
So they lost their salvation.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Please quit asking this question and demanding Scripture of the other. I'll answer this plainly: There is no such verses that make this sort of claim. Not even one.

To all others, please quit demanding others provide specific Scriptures for this or that. Ahhhhhhhhh! Just state your case.

I hate getting "assignments" from other posters. (now asking and not demanding is different - okay to ask for a Scripture if done right but the demanding thing is setting a negative tone)

I don't see it that way.
JLB all these years has always been straight forward with what the OP is meant to be.
And are you such a great Bible scholar that you know for sure there are no other verses that can make this sort of claim?
Would you care to present your credentials?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Okay, I'm off to do my work that I promised God I'd do (which is my service of obedience to Him). This is a good discussion and it needs to stay respectful. Remember, no personal comments. Stick to your views, challenge opposing views respectfully. Support your view with Scripture where appropriate. Keep the conversation flowing and don't play moderator if someone isn't acting according to Hoyle. ;) You all know what I mean. I'll be back later.

We're all brothers and sisters and we're having a friendly discussion on an important matter. Let's honor Christ by honoring each other and serving one another in love!

Do you not agree that the apostles were willing to die for the truth?? But my question was ignored. Where does the Bible state in clear terms that one must be "willing to die in order to never perish"? If there isn't one, why should anyone believe such a thing?


Is there a point here? Clearly, not everyone "just wants to believe". Many refuse to believe.

Question was of OBEDIENCE. The apostles obeyed the Lord. They responded with their lives at stake. They went to the ultimate distance to obey. This tells me one thing clearly . They loved the Lord and understood the VITAL importance of obeying Him . And they did . They did what Jesus taught them / us-----do God's will over ours . However instead of that great Doctrine it has been all replaced with the desperate greed to enter Heaven and therefore the difficult part obedience was deleted in the easy believism Doctrine, and all that is left is Faith. You just confess once that you have faith and you saved forever. Why obey like the Christ and apostles?