Futurism&TheTemple

[reba]

IMO that's crazy.. but it's probably true in at least some instances.. religious pride is the most stubborn pride of all imo because people can't admit that they're wrong or that they have been led to believe something that is not true.

Amen to that!

 

[jasoncran]

Re: If I have told you earthly things and ye believe not...

IMO it's practically impossible (if not completely impossible) to understand the time of the end without 'seeing' or understanding the distinction between the earthly entity known as ISRAEL.. and the heavenly entity known in the scriptures as the CHURCH.

Notice that the church is nowhere to be seen in the CONTEXT of Revelation 11.. and yet there is seemingly endless Christian commentary that these things apply to the church, right here and right now..

THAT is simply taking the word of God from its own context and placing it within the context of the things which are.. ie, this present time..

That's why it simply doesn't work.. and let's be blunt here.. it's NOT that difficult to SEE this.. imo it's more aligned with people refusing to see it.. because then they would have to admit that they're wrong in their present beliefs..

IMO that's crazy.. but it's probably true in at least some instances.. religious pride is the most stubborn pride of all imo because people can't admit that they're wrong or that they have been led to believe something that is not true.

i dont think you can. i dont think you know the early church was mostly isreal and hardly gentile. that is up to ad 70.imho. isreal is what when she believes in christ. you wont answer that because you fail to see that isreal cant be a nation of her past when she comes to lord. she wont need a temple, she doesnt need land, she doesnt need the torah as in the old way. those things are in her past., but her messiah whom is the torah and the feasts symbolically has come
No,sir, i have been reasearching jewry. it cant be like that for them if you believe. are there levites in christ that do the animal sacrifices and take offerings and also are refused service for being defective(crook back and dwarf) are we commanded this side of the cross to kill christians for working on the shabat?

 

[Eventide]

So we can either listen to and believe those who don't understand a thing about the future.. and who stuff all things into the past or present.. or we can simply apply the word of God in its own context and see the future as clear as DAY..

And it couldn't be more obvious to see this exact thing being played out in post after post..

 

[Eventide]

Take the DAY of the LORD for example..

It shall come as a thief in the night...

Simple pure and obvious context of the word of God..

NOPE... it's all in the past.. happened in AD70 and that's that..

It IS really that crazy...

 

[jasoncran]

eventide. defend your position. post why you believe what you believe and show me where it doesnt say this.

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.

13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.

17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

levites doing what?that has a connotion of a priesthood. meaning the torah. so the torah is greater then cross and more effective? prove me wrong. show me why the law would come back.

 

[jasoncran]

Take the DAY of the LORD for example..

It shall come as a thief in the night...

Simple pure and obvious context of the word of God..

NOPE... it's all in the past.. happened in AD70 and that's that..

It IS really that crazy...

i didnt say that the judgement of all man has past nor the bodily ressurection. but hey i take the book of revalation literally when it says

in revalation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

so how can in modern times those that pierced him see him? when they are dead? spirits dont have eyes.

 

[Eventide]

Hey, looks like someone is a futurist..

LOL

 

[reba]

The temple was destroyed 70 ad isn't that a fact of history or is it still standing...
I do not understand why a straight forward fact gets folks so angry.
Folks can and do fit lots of stuff into their versions of eschatology.

In the words of Christ Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Odd how the destruction of the temple fits into the Words of Christ.

IMO The 70 ad destruction of the temple city etc is not the end of time or of mankind we are still here. There is still the resurrection. the great white throne judgement ....that is what comes to mind at the moment

 

[jasoncran]

im not a futurist. a partial preterist is what im closest too.i have never claimed the ressurection has passed. my beef with you is chiefly isreal and the church and what they do after the cross. since im of both.

since i have been dialoguing to a jew. he knows im jewish and he is chassidic. he knows the torah better then i do. this is what he told me

the same redeemer Hashem who brought us out of Egypt. A further mistake is that you wrongly label Judaism as a religion based on performance as if salvation is based on how good your memory is. Consider how often Judaism is referenced as one of, “the world’s three great religions” and how the words—unchallenged—-promote a kind of relativism that allows true observance of Torah to be lumped into the same category as Christianity and Islam. The West also promotes this idea, they bring the whole of Torah-belief and practice down to their level, especially here here in America where politicians tout the misapplied doctrine of “separation of church and state”. The latter concept reinforces an idea that their is, somehow, a disconnect between the two for any credible nation. In reality, a genuine Torah government would never separate belief and law or faith and everyday life.

Calling Judaism a religion fails to recognize that the Jews constitute a genuine nation, in every sense of the word.

I cannot find any place, in the Torah, where G-d told Avraham Avinu that he would make him the father of a great religion. The promise was always positioned as nationhood. Four-hundred thirty years after that promise was made to the great patriarch, his descendants stood at Mt Sinai and HaShem told the people they would be a nation of priests.

Saying that one is a Jew should be understood as meaning the exact same thing as saying that one is American, Japanese or any nationality. In fact, when a person converts (another unfortunate term) to Judaism, they become a naturalized citizen of a great and ancient commonwealth still thriving today. The convert is subject to all of the laws of that commonwealth. Just as the children born to a naturalized citizen are automatically considered citizens of their parent’s adopted nation, children born to converts are considered Jewish. Obviously, there are certain things a convert or children of converts cannot do but, again, there are similar statutes in the American constitution. For example, a naturalized American citizen cannot hold certain public offices. This recalls the Torah commandments in respect to the Kohanim.

A Jew can make the same claim as any nation–they have a set of laws covering every aspect of daily life and they have a land in which to practice those laws. However, there is one elegant and amazing difference: Any law that I observe–for example—obeying a traffic sign, does only one thing–it maintains order. But when a Jew keeps a Torah law, even one that might be viewed as the simplest mitzvah—that Jew brings down holiness into the world!

Israel is unique in this way and also unique by virtue of the fact that they are the only nation in history that was created by G-d. What a marvelous thing this is. This idea of nationhood is so elementary, so basic, that it can be seen in the even worst English translations of the Tanakh.

that is absolutely correct in a lot of ways.

 

[reba]

Most folks area blend of futurism and preterism.

The Cross happened (preterism) He will return (futurism)

im not a futurist. a partial preterist is what im closest too

As far as labels go, for me i agree with jason...

 

[Eventide]

LOL...

Anyway.. the topic here is the FUTURE and the TEMPLE..

ANYONE care to tell us about REVELATION 11 and its TEMPLE.. and then tell us its BIBLICAL CONTEXT..

 

[jasoncran]

it is all revalant. you dare say that orthodox jew is wrong that the temple isnt center of jewry?

or rather the torah. one can do the torah and not need the temple. it wasnt there when moses passed it along.it wasnt there when daniel prophecied. or when he prayed, and the temple of herod was defiled. it was defiled by herod when he built it. one shouldnt lay tools to stones to make the temple per the commands of moses

 

[Eventide]

Measure the TEMPLE...

Well, if you believe that there is NOT going to be a TEMPLE.. then explain why and hopefully that belief has a BIBLICAL BASIS... otherwise it's an argument built upon silence and your own personal opinion.

Again, this isn't that difficult..

EXPLAIN IN DETAIL Revelation 11 and its BIBLICAL CONTEXT concerning the TEMPLE..

2 Thess 2 of course is a perfect connection... the man of sin sitting within the TEMPLE and being WORSHIPPED and proclaiming himself to be GOD..

Whose COMING is after the working of satan with all kinds of miraculous deception..

We can read about this man in Revelation 13...

So who should we believe.. those who say that there is not going to be a TEMPLE or the word of God which clearly reveals a TEMPLE within the biblical context of the things which shall be hereafter..

We can either stand upon beliefs which are supported by the living and powerful word of God, or we can build our own beliefs upon the shifting sands of our own opinions.

 

[jasoncran]

the temple then. not this alleged one planned that at present with isreal's softness on islam will never happen.


i can slam dunk you theory in a one sentence

No man knoweth the hour.

yet it says the temple shall be trodden for fourty two months. once that starts then all men who know this prophecy then will KNOW that Jesus will come to the rescue thus KNOW his coming. its plain to see if you know. so then this cant be about his return but about his judgement of isreal in ad 70.

 

[reba]

1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Eventide]

It should not be that difficult to see when we DO NOT IGNORE the MYSTERY pertaining to Israel... and how that they (Israel) Are blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

So.. do the math..

ISRAEL is still LOOKING for their Messiah..

This isn't complicated.. simply because Israel rejected Christ as their coming Messiah... that doesn't mean that they're not looking for Him to come in the future.. and John's gospel speaks of them receiving one coming in his own name.. imo this means apart from the testimony of their own scripted prophecy concerning Him..

It's going to get severely ugly in that day and the love of many is going to grow completely cold.. for the man of sin himself is going to come and he is going to be given DOMINION OVER THE ENTIRE EARTH for 42 months.. but of course that's not the end of the story either.. for there is no doubt that the KING OF KINGS is COMING in HIS GLORY with thousands upon thousands of HIS Saints.. in that DAY.. the DAY of the LORD, the DAY of Jesus Christ..

And He that hath begun a GOOD WORK in you shall perform it, even until the DAY OF JESUS CHRIST..

You can rest assured in the pure and simple promises of God.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm that jew just posted this , and he said. we dont need a messiah. we have G-D. the one that gave us the torah to save us.

and the hassidics are the largest type of jews in isreal and all of jewry.

the coming of any messiah is not specifically mentioned in the Jewish scriptures

certainly not in the way you understand the loaded term messiah that is!!

we are not confused because Judaism is not predicated on a belief in a messiah. Judaism is predicated in belief in G-d.

and they teach just that. the moshiac need be god to them. they believe he will be a great teacher and do miracles but not GOD.the dwelling of the Lord will be so strong in the third temple that we will have no doubts that God is here. the torah will shine bright and men will know.in short.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Measure the TEMPLE...

All a person would need to do to refute the silly futurist notion of a coming future TEMPLE.. is to explain in detail Revelation 11 and its biblical context concerning A TEMPLE..

And then.... maybe then.... just maybe... they might have a leg to stand on...

It's infinitely easier to rest in the truth of scripture than it is to completely ignore it and believe something which has absolutely NO biblical basis whatsoever.. and yet we probably won't hear anyone speak of Revelation 11 in its biblical context concerning the TEMPLE..

Perhaps just about anything BUT that..

 

[jasoncran]

i can and you seem to ignore that theres a clock and countdown to the messiah returning if we were to take that way. the chassidic faith is the one who leads the way building the temple. only the orthodox and ultra orthodox concern themselves with the temple. consertives im not sure. i would have to ask my kin on that.

 

[JLB]

Asking again why are the 70 years of captivity subtracted... They happened

The "going forth of the command" was given "after" the 70 years of captivity. We are defining the time frame from the "going forth of the command" to "Messiah the Prince"


JLB