Futurism&TheTemple

[thightower]

And the two most significant signs of His return were the gospel being preached throughout the whole world, as Paul wrote was fulfilled when he wrote to the Romans (chapters 1 and 10) and Colossians (1:5-6, 23), and the great tribulation (civil war and famine) of Jerusalem leading to its destruction by Rome.

I'm starting to understand that part of prophecy. But where some of my thinking comes from is before Christ second coming as he foretold in Matthew 24;30, the bible shows me, that will be the great tribulation like the world has never seen. Not to take anything away from the 70 ad events, which was the worst tribulation in the world at that time.

 

[thightower]

Fortunately for all of us, our salvation as Christians is not based upon our ability to discern aspects of eschatology. Accepting your pastor's 'endtime' views won't damn you even if they are wrong. Investigating other views won't damn you even if they ultimately seem insufficient. First century Jews did not have that luxury of Grace to fall back on unless they accepted Jesus as their Christ.

I'm glad my salvation isn't hanging on ability to discern. God has been showing me different aspects of his word and its interpretation of the different people groups.

 

[Hitch]

Whether 70AD, today, tomorrow, whenever, Christ is King, not us. Our knowledge, whether small or great is not our own, but a gift from God. Whether we spend 1 hour studying or a lifetime, we should be thankful to God, for all glory is His, Amen.

This board is like a modern day squabble between the Pharisees & Sadducees, between some that know a little, some that search for the truth but get swallowed by the forcefulness of others.

They all thought they knew everything when Jesus came the first time too

And yet here you are like a moth drawn to the flame, poor little LLoyd. No one has a gun to your head ,making you read here.

 

[Hitch]

I went and talked to my pastor this morning to see if was headed iin the right direction. His take on Daniel was it started at the Babilonian ocupation to the AoD of 70 ad. To me that settles that discution. As for Revelation, it was supposed to have been written from 70 - 96 ad, which to me still stands as proof for me. That leaves Matthew 24, which we know is Jesus' answer to the disciple's question of the signs of his return.

As for Revelation, it was supposed to have been written from 70 - 96 ad

Source?

 

[Hitch]

Jason,

I'm not talking about your understanding of scripture or what you do know or don't know. I'm talking about the manner in which the information is discussed with fellow brothers.


With whom did Christ find favour? With those who were knowledgable or those that knew little? It's when we think we know everything that we find ourselves the most distanced from Christ. Who saught the life of Jesus? Was it not the religious leaders, the hardered Jews, the priests, the scribes, the pharisees, the saduccees, all those that 'thought' they knew scripture inside out? They could all talk for hours about scripture, and knew them inside out, yet they completely missed the point of our Saviour, and ultimately crucified him. I see similarities happening on this site all the time, so many people with such knowledge of scripture, yet so little of Christ.

And this has what connection to the topic?

You personal attacks and complaints are not welcome, be Christian enough to start your own thread for that.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason,

I'm not talking about your understanding of scripture or what you do know or don't know. I'm talking about the manner in which the information is discussed with fellow brothers.


With whom did Christ find favour? With those who were knowledgable or those that knew little? It's when we think we know everything that we find ourselves the most distanced from Christ. Who saught the life of Jesus? Was it not the religious leaders, the hardered Jews, the priests, the scribes, the pharisees, the saduccees, all those that 'thought' they knew scripture inside out? They could all talk for hours about scripture, and knew them inside out, yet they completely missed the point of our Saviour, and ultimately crucified him. I see similarities happening on this site all the time, so many people with such knowledge of scripture, yet so little of Christ.

so we shouldnt discuss this or debate this? and well what of this partial blindness that the jews have? if you read up on judiasm(the sages existed before christ and spoke and taught of him in the talmud). but lets be dumb gentiles and say that the talmud is bad and dare tell the orthodox they dont know the torah. they cant read and know of their own culture. sure they are blind, but not on it all.

my motivation for where im at isnt what you think on end times its because i wanted to know and defend futurism. i switched when i couldnt. if i cant teach it and preach it then it must not be case. ie supported.

now then i have been corrected by jeff on the events of abraham and jacob in the promised land.

so i will correct myself. it does however confirm my idea on what the nation was and why.
genesis 15

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.

now then lets see what ramban says.
i have glanced at this and i will see if chabad has anything on this to make it short and easy to post. its not easy to understand.

nope. alrighty then i will read up on it and post. jeff if you are reading this please post this in laymen terms. beersherit for the uniated isnt easy to digest.

 

[thightower]

As for Revelation, it was supposed to have been written from 70 - 96 ad

Source?

Thats the problem with revelation, no one has pinned down a year. I have heard as early as 38 ad, to as late as 96 ad. Those dates i got from wikipedia.

 

[Hitch]

Thats the problem with revelation, no one has pinned down a year. I have heard as early as 38 ad, to as late as 96 ad. Those dates i got from wikipedia.

I suggest Before Jerusalem Fell , Ken Gentry .

 

[jasoncran]

found it!

genesis XII lech lecha
Know that our father unintentionally commited a great sin by bringing his righteous wife to a stumbling block of sin on account of his fear for his life. He should have trusted that G-D would save him and his wife and all his belongings for G-D surely has the power to help and save. His leaving the Land, concerning which he had been commanded from the begginning, on the account of the famine, was also a sin he commited, for in the famine G-D would redeem him from death. It was because of this deed that exile in the land of Egypt at the hand of Pharoah was decreed for his children. In the place of justice , there is wickedness and sin

beeresherit by ramban pg 173-174.

know then if you take this idea of what the land was for(to grow seed by faith in raising them up to believe to include the gentiles.

The Ramban1 notes that the three wells dug by Yitzchok hint at the three Temples the two that have been destroyed, and the third, which will be built when our righteous Moshiach comes, may it be speedily in our days.
"A well of living waters" alludes to the Temples, for they are called "living waters." When G-d first commanded that the Tabernacle be built, He said:2 "And you shall make for Me a Temple ([a holy place], and I shall dwell among them." Our sages3 observe that it would seem more appropriate for the verse to have said, "And I shall dwell in it." Why then does the verse say "I shall dwell among them"?
It means to teach us, say our sages, that G-d dwells within each and every Jew, that every Jewish mind and heart is a Temple to G-d.
There are two ways of serving G-d: drawing down from above, and elevating that which is below.
The Temple is termed a "well," because, like a well, the main services there involved elevating that which was below.
The service of Torah study is an example of drawing down that which is above. When a person conducts himself in accordance with the Torah, its light illuminates all his physical affairs. Torah is wholly "above," for it is G-d's wisdom and will.4 It illuminates what is "below," as it is written: "and Torah is illumination."5 All that is necessary [for the illumination to permeate this world] is for a person to conduct himself in accordance with the Torah.
The second kind of spiritual service is elevation from below, a prime example of which is prayer. Prayer elevates all that is below by purifying and refining it. This is like a well, drawing up from below, as it is written:6 "Well, arise!" Though the service of prayer, similar to a well, is from below to above, nevertheless it is to be permeated with the spirit of Torah, just as the study of Torah must be in accordance with the humility that permeates prayer, as our sages have said:7 "One should begin praying only after attaining a state of serious [and humble] demeanor."
Contemplating G-d's greatness during prayer helps one realize the true quality of Torah that it is G-d's divine wisdom and will, and therefore must be studied with humility. The verse8 states it thus: "My tongue shall but repeat Your sayings," like one who repeats exactly what he has heard. When one studies Torah, one should feel as if he were repeating [after G-d] the divine words which are Torah.
All this results from one's service of prayer. Similarly, one's prayer should be in accordance with Torah. This then is the meaning of "Garden springs; a well of living waters..." The spiritual service that resembles "a well of living waters" reveals the "garden springs" of the soul.
In summary: The three wells hint at the three Temples. The first and second Temples were destroyed because of our sins. This is the meaning of Eisek and Sitnah, argument and enmity [sins of baseless hatred that caused the destruction of the Temple]. Rechovos, "broad spaces" refers to the third Temple, which shall be eternal. The service of Torah is to draw down, and the service of prayer is to elevate.

now then given these two. it confirms what i have said isreal was to do and is. it was never about zionism but a group of people from one man who by his faith and teaching to them(the children he had) that believed.

the seed here is by faith. gentiles were supposed to be a part of that. i can list the gentile peeople that joined isreal.

 

[thightower]

My question is then. If all prophecy in the bible has been fulfilled, when was the second coming of Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

My question is then. If all prophecy in the bible has been fulfilled, when was the second coming of Christ.

who said that all of it was fulfilled? Not me.

the Last day hasnt happened.

i counter question. are you saved Now or when your perfected and sinless?

 

[thightower]

who said that all of it was fulfilled? Not me.

the Last day hasnt happened.

i counter question. are you saved Now or when your perfected and sinless?

Jesus teaches a person is saved when they repent of thier sins and puts thier faith and trust in him and him alone.

 

[thightower]

My question is then. If all prophecy in the bible has been fulfilled, when was the second coming of Christ.

Made this comment because of my understanding of the events leading to the second coming. Which includes the temple and the aod.

 

[jasoncran]

Jesus teaches a person is saved when they repent of thier sins and puts thier faith and trust in him and him alone.

ok then why have you argued with hitch when he says that? he teaches the ressurection of the dead(you in your sins) is just that and that it will lead to your soul and body being redeemed. that is what the bible says. why not then extend that same slow process of redemption to the earth and all of creation?

hitch,synthesis nor i have said that this earth is perfect. only that the lord rules now and that he is allowing souls be saved. jesus reigns now. he reigns and does things that we may not agree with but nonethe less he reigns. when he returns to judge all men there wont be a last second chance for the sinner to come forth. its over and done. that is why peter spoke of his long suffering.

stormcrow is a full preterist. they are a different lot. i dont agree with that position but the thread isnt about full preterism but about futurism. and that would be the wrong forum to challange stormcrow.

where i disagree with stormcrow the most is the bodily ressurection(yet to occur) and that our body will be on of flesh. like adam had.

 

[thightower]

ok then why have you argued with hitch when he says that? he teaches the ressurection of the dead(you in your sins) is just that and that it will lead to your soul and body being redeemed. that is what the bible says. why not then extend that same slow process of redemption to the earth and all of creation?

hitch,synthesis nor i have said that this earth is perfect. only that the lord rules now and that he is allowing souls be saved. jesus reigns now. he reigns and does things that we may not agree with but nonethe less he reigns. when he returns to judge all men there wont be a last second chance for the sinner to come forth. its over and done. that is why peter spoke of his long suffering.

stormcrow is a full preterist. they are a different lot. i dont agree with that position but the thread isnt about full preterism but about futurism. and that would be the wrong forum to challange stormcrow.

where i disagree with stormcrow the most is the bodily ressurection(yet to occur) and that our body will be on of flesh. like adam had.

I agree with these statements, never thought i was arguing about salvation. Just the events leading up to the second coming of Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

I agree with these statements, never thought i was arguing about salvation. Just the events leading up to the second coming of Christ.

then you sir arent a futurist.

the second coming to me is merely the finishing of what Jesus started at the cross. not some mini coming to do a mini-redemption of the earth. sin will be done and death when he returns.

imho. i dont say im amil because i dont see a millenium just that the modern church version cant be. it involves to many things that simply dont make sense.

ie isreal. show me with proper exegesis and support why the third temple in the millenium will be where the world worships jesus when he says that neither in jerusalem nor in samaria will his followers worship him?

 

[thightower]

then you sir arent a futurist.

the second coming to me is merely the finishing of what Jesus started at the cross. not some mini coming to do a mini-redemption of the earth. sin will be done and death when he returns.

imho. i dont say im amil because i dont see a millenium just that the modern church version cant be. it involves to many things that simply dont make sense.

ie isreal. show me with proper exegesis and support why the third temple in the millenium will be where the world worships jesus when he says that neither in jerusalem nor in samaria will his followers worship him?

I think I found our difference. Looking at your last post on end times close. I went to the link, what i am calling the aod, it calls the abrogate of the covenent.
And I can't explain the temple in the millineum, the rest of revelation only talks of the temple in heaven.

 

[jasoncran]

so how can the aod be without a temple? no place to offer sacrifices? that is what. see my other thread on the aod in the end times. i have done channukah and will dig deeper into that.

 

[thightower]

so how can the aod be without a temple? no place to offer sacrifices? that is what. see my other thread on the aod in the end times. i have done channukah and will dig deeper into that.

Good question. How can he abolish sacrifices and meal offerings with out a temple?

 

[jasoncran]

Good question. How can he abolish sacrifices and meal offerings with out a temple?

your problem not mine.