Happy Sabbath

[Ryan]

Why would anyone attack anyone for worshipping on a Sunday? Or Wednesday, or Saturday for that matter? As long as it is to Jesus and not the sun or the moon. Any day is a good day to worship the Lord. It's just there was a day set apart from creation to take the rest in that he gave us instructions in how to go about it. I trust he knows what is best for me. Do you know what a moed is, or a moedim?

Wow Ryan I think we have found a place to agree! Not familiar with a "moedim"

If JLB would be as kind, we could most likely agree on many things

We probably agree on many things.

Genesis 1:14 <SUP class=versenum> </SUP>Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>signs and for <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>seasons and for days and years;

Seasons here is the word moed. How it was used wasn't to say fall, winter, spring summer are here, but were for divine appointments to keep.

mô‛êd mô‛êd mô‛âdâh
mo-ade', mo-ade', mo-aw-daw'
From H3259; properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand)
KJV Usage: appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed).

</ARTICLE>
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions
1. appointed place, appointed time, meeting
a. appointed time
1. appointed time (general)
2. sacred season, set feast, appointed season
b. appointed meeting
c. appointed place
d. appointed sign or signal
e. tent of meeting


As you can see, it is for appointments. If you look at the Sabbath's and the Feast days as God's day timer, he has a weekly and times throughout the year he wants to meet with us. If your boss said he wanted to meet with you on Thursday at 2 o'clock. Would you show up? That's kinda what God is saying to us here.

Leviticus 23:1-4

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, <SUP class=versenum>2 </SUP>“Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>The Lord’s appointed times [moedim] which you shall <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times [moedim]are these:
<SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP>‘<SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.
<SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP>‘These are the <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>appointed times [moedim] of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed [moedim] for them.




Now if God made the suns, moons and the stars for us to remember to gather and observe his appointed times, why would he want his day timer to change? I could go on, but for brevity's sake. I think you get my drift why some of us want to keep the days he made. That's why you have people like us saying come and enjoy those days. Especially in light of the remaining feast days that need to be fulfilled still in the fall.

Well I can admire your zeal for these things, but what the New Covenant is, is that Gods Spirit is in the believer, that we always have fellowship with God. It would be a huge step backwards for me to observe appointed times to meet with God.
In truth, I am in God and nothing can seperate me from His Love.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I call Him Abba, and he always hears me and His love is always with me, how could I turn from that? I need no day or season, I have His fellowship at all times.

This topic has been rehashed over and over again the last bit here, of which I contributed some. Don't wanna sound like a one trick pony, so I am done.

In the meantime, find out who the New Covenant is made with. In Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 will get you started. Then the helper as spoken in Ezekiel 36:27 will help who follow his what?

Ezekiel 20, Ezekiel 22:8, Ezekiel 22:26, Ezekiel 23:38, Nehemiah 13:17 are just some examples of God warning his people not to profane the Sabbaths.

I was raised to attend school and be diligent in my studies. As i got older into my teens, I started to skip occasionally. My parents warned me and sometimes had to take away some things away from me to teach me a lesson. The lesson was always short lived, and soon, my skipping and my general behavior was outright atrocious spiraling the family dynamics into chaos. My parents finally had enough, and kicked me out. Life was terrible, and I decided to make amends, change my attitude and return home.

So after the somber occasion of admitting my mistakes, the ground rules of the house had to be re-established so everybody knew the expectations. Imagine my surprise when my parents told me I could decide if I did or didn't want to go to school. Yippee, what was getting me into trouble is now gone! Not only that, my 10pm curfew was changed to whenever I wanted to come and go. Many other things that had kept me safe and tied to the home and family, I now had "liberty" to do as I pleased. My parents were so awesome! Because I was bad enough, my parents got rid of the rules that were causing me to rebel in the first place. What a wonderful message that is to me and to my own children now growing up. Have a loud enough tantrum, and the parents will change the rules.

Do my parents sound schizophrenic to you? That is the God being presented of how he behaves if you believe there are now different rules and expectations for different people. Which gets me back to the Covenants. If you checked with whom the New Covenants has been made with, you will see it is with Israel. God wants to return Israel back to Covenant, but most of Churchianity's doctrine is how it is described in the example I set forth. The bible says something different. Israel will return to Covenant to the SAME Torah they had broken, of which we are co-heirs. The Sabbath was the sign of being in Covenant. Of which, the Sabbath's (The Lord's moedim) will be restored back to their rightful place.

Isaiah 66:22-23
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All [a]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

 

[Ryan]

the first baptism technically, though a stretch, is recorded in the exodus account of isreal crossing the red sea. However, peter compares the act of water baptism to the flood. which a far greater anology. in that the flood came and wiped away sin and cleansed the earth of the unrighteous men.

Pretty close, and yes Noah's Ark is a good picture of baptism and the washing away of unrighteousness. But there is still an earlier baptism, and it is in Genesis 1. You being a Jew from Israel must know what a miqveh is. The first time it is used is in Genesis 1:10. Can you see it?

im not an isreali jew, but I say this"im of isreal" to mean that I am of that descent. genesis 1:10 cant be used that way since it has nothing to do with redemption nor cleansing.

As I alluded to in part one, baptism is not a New Testament doctrine. As a matter of fact, it is one of the very oldest teachings in the scriptures. The idea of immersing and or cleansing with or in water is old because ALL matter is cleansed in water in the beginning. Water is in the very, very beginning and directly associated with the Spirit of God.

B'reshiyth 1:2
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The first action of God is to move upon the face of the waters. This is because all of God's creation will be first immersed in water. Two entities are brought forth first in the Word of God. Light and water, both of which are still being researched as to their essence, purpose and possibilities. The Holy Spirit or Spirit of God and water are used consistently all through scripture as figures, one of another.

Zechariah 14:8, John 7:38, Isaiah 44:8, John 3:5, 1 John 5:8, Revelation 22:17

These are but a handful of examples. But we must take note that the pattern placed by God has the Spirit of God moving first. What God will do for man, He does for the creation first. In restoring a fallen creation, God first moves on the face of the waters (B'reshiyth 1:2). This is because the earth will be cleansed by the waters a little later. He then brings forth light (1:3). Then He cleanses the earth with water (1:6-10). After that, the earth brings forth fruit (1:11-13). Then the creation is a witness through the sun, moon, and stars (1:14-19), and the result is life (1:20-27).

In verses nine and ten of B'reshiyth we have the earth baptized first. All the material from whence life will come from, is first immersed and then brought up out of the water.

B'reshiyth 1:9-10
"And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the GATHERING TOGETHER of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Apparently, the land was still underneath the waters a result of the fall of hasatan in the beginning. (A detail I cover in much detail in our B'reshiyth series. This writer holds to a source of the fall of hasatan in the beginning and NOT a doctrine involving pre-adamic beings, mortal sin before death or any such teaching.) AFTER the Spirit of God moves on the face of the waters, we have the earth coming up out of the waters. The phrase 'gathering together' in verse ten is the word ulemiqeveh. This Hebrew word is the word miqeveh. This is the Hebrew word for baptismal, or the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek baptizo. It means a place of gathering. The Creator begins by immersing and cleansing the earth within which all plants, animals and people come from. The cleansing power of water still fascinates man to this day. Science, as we speak, still does not fully comprehend it's abilities. The following is a quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Although it's formula (H2O) seems simple, water exhibits very complex chemical physical properties that are incompletely understood."

The full lesson is here https://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson138.html as I am much to dull and uneducated to interpret scripture in this manner.

This is the foundational idea of baptism that all subsequent scripture must rest upon. I think the idea of the rule of First Mentioning or some other hermeneutical term I can't remember that is so important to interpreting scripture.

 

[George Muller]

find out who the New Covenant is made with.

Romans:
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You do understand that almost all the New Testament epistles was written to churches that where made up mostly of gentile believers?

 

[jasoncran]

the first baptism technically, though a stretch, is recorded in the exodus account of isreal crossing the red sea. However, peter compares the act of water baptism to the flood. which a far greater anology. in that the flood came and wiped away sin and cleansed the earth of the unrighteous men.

Pretty close, and yes Noah's Ark is a good picture of baptism and the washing away of unrighteousness. But there is still an earlier baptism, and it is in Genesis 1. You being a Jew from Israel must know what a miqveh is. The first time it is used is in Genesis 1:10. Can you see it?

im not an isreali jew, but I say this"im of isreal" to mean that I am of that descent. genesis 1:10 cant be used that way since it has nothing to do with redemption nor cleansing.

As I alluded to in part one, baptism is not a New Testament doctrine. As a matter of fact, it is one of the very oldest teachings in the scriptures. The idea of immersing and or cleansing with or in water is old because ALL matter is cleansed in water in the beginning. Water is in the very, very beginning and directly associated with the Spirit of God.

B'reshiyth 1:2
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The first action of God is to move upon the face of the waters. This is because all of God's creation will be first immersed in water. Two entities are brought forth first in the Word of God. Light and water, both of which are still being researched as to their essence, purpose and possibilities. The Holy Spirit or Spirit of God and water are used consistently all through scripture as figures, one of another.

Zechariah 14:8, John 7:38, Isaiah 44:8, John 3:5, 1 John 5:8, Revelation 22:17

These are but a handful of examples. But we must take note that the pattern placed by God has the Spirit of God moving first. What God will do for man, He does for the creation first. In restoring a fallen creation, God first moves on the face of the waters (B'reshiyth 1:2). This is because the earth will be cleansed by the waters a little later. He then brings forth light (1:3). Then He cleanses the earth with water (1:6-10). After that, the earth brings forth fruit (1:11-13). Then the creation is a witness through the sun, moon, and stars (1:14-19), and the result is life (1:20-27).

In verses nine and ten of B'reshiyth we have the earth baptized first. All the material from whence life will come from, is first immersed and then brought up out of the water.

B'reshiyth 1:9-10
"And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the GATHERING TOGETHER of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Apparently, the land was still underneath the waters a result of the fall of hasatan in the beginning. (A detail I cover in much detail in our B'reshiyth series. This writer holds to a source of the fall of hasatan in the beginning and NOT a doctrine involving pre-adamic beings, mortal sin before death or any such teaching.) AFTER the Spirit of God moves on the face of the waters, we have the earth coming up out of the waters. The phrase 'gathering together' in verse ten is the word ulemiqeveh. This Hebrew word is the word miqeveh. This is the Hebrew word for baptismal, or the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek baptizo. It means a place of gathering. The Creator begins by immersing and cleansing the earth within which all plants, animals and people come from. The cleansing power of water still fascinates man to this day. Science, as we speak, still does not fully comprehend it's abilities. The following is a quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Although it's formula (H2O) seems simple, water exhibits very complex chemical physical properties that are incompletely understood."

The full lesson is here https://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson138.html as I am much to dull and uneducated to interpret scripture in this manner.

This is the foundational idea of baptism that all subsequent scripture must rest upon. I think the idea of the rule of First Mentioning or some other hermeneutical term I can't remember that is so important to interpreting scripture.

you lost me as I don't buy into the earth being corrupted from satan prior to creation.that would imply that there was death. if you really want to go there. ramban actually says the firmaments were actually water. upper and lower water. he doesn't believe in the idea of Lilith. or a fall of satan and a pre adamic race that was corrupted by satan.i agree, since that would mean God rather then save his creation merely destroyed it and yet allowed satan once again to corrupt it.

 

[JLB]

This is the foundational idea of baptism that all subsequent scripture must rest upon.

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1 Corinthians 10:2

These were shadows that pointed to a reality.

Because these examples were written for us to partake of the very substance.

Just as the Passover Lamp to the the reality of Christ, however if a person does not partake of the reality of the shadow that it pointed to, it does a person no good.

That person will be ever learning, yet never come to the knowledge of the truth.

So it is with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism in water.




JLB

 

[Ryan]

find out who the New Covenant is made with.

Romans:
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You do understand that almost all the New Testament epistles was written to churches that where made up mostly of gentile believers?

You are working to far ahead here George. You are trying to have later scripture written, interpret earlier scripture. That is backwards. Who is the New Covenant made with?

 

[Ryan]

im not an isreali jew, but I say this"im of isreal" to mean that I am of that descent. genesis 1:10 cant be used that way since it has nothing to do with redemption nor cleansing.

As I alluded to in part one, baptism is not a New Testament doctrine. As a matter of fact, it is one of the very oldest teachings in the scriptures. The idea of immersing and or cleansing with or in water is old because ALL matter is cleansed in water in the beginning. Water is in the very, very beginning and directly associated with the Spirit of God.

B'reshiyth 1:2
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The first action of God is to move upon the face of the waters. This is because all of God's creation will be first immersed in water. Two entities are brought forth first in the Word of God. Light and water, both of which are still being researched as to their essence, purpose and possibilities. The Holy Spirit or Spirit of God and water are used consistently all through scripture as figures, one of another.

Zechariah 14:8, John 7:38, Isaiah 44:8, John 3:5, 1 John 5:8, Revelation 22:17

These are but a handful of examples. But we must take note that the pattern placed by God has the Spirit of God moving first. What God will do for man, He does for the creation first. In restoring a fallen creation, God first moves on the face of the waters (B'reshiyth 1:2). This is because the earth will be cleansed by the waters a little later. He then brings forth light (1:3). Then He cleanses the earth with water (1:6-10). After that, the earth brings forth fruit (1:11-13). Then the creation is a witness through the sun, moon, and stars (1:14-19), and the result is life (1:20-27).

In verses nine and ten of B'reshiyth we have the earth baptized first. All the material from whence life will come from, is first immersed and then brought up out of the water.

B'reshiyth 1:9-10
"And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the GATHERING TOGETHER of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Apparently, the land was still underneath the waters a result of the fall of hasatan in the beginning. (A detail I cover in much detail in our B'reshiyth series. This writer holds to a source of the fall of hasatan in the beginning and NOT a doctrine involving pre-adamic beings, mortal sin before death or any such teaching.) AFTER the Spirit of God moves on the face of the waters, we have the earth coming up out of the waters. The phrase 'gathering together' in verse ten is the word ulemiqeveh. This Hebrew word is the word miqeveh. This is the Hebrew word for baptismal, or the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek baptizo. It means a place of gathering. The Creator begins by immersing and cleansing the earth within which all plants, animals and people come from. The cleansing power of water still fascinates man to this day. Science, as we speak, still does not fully comprehend it's abilities. The following is a quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Although it's formula (H2O) seems simple, water exhibits very complex chemical physical properties that are incompletely understood."

The full lesson is here https://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson138.html as I am much to dull and uneducated to interpret scripture in this manner.

This is the foundational idea of baptism that all subsequent scripture must rest upon. I think the idea of the rule of First Mentioning or some other hermeneutical term I can't remember that is so important to interpreting scripture.

you lost me as I don't buy into the earth being corrupted from satan prior to creation.that would imply that there was death. if you really want to go there. ramban actually says the firmaments were actually water. upper and lower water. he doesn't believe in the idea of Lilith. or a fall of satan and a pre adamic race that was corrupted by satan.i agree, since that would mean God rather then save his creation merely destroyed it and yet allowed satan once again to corrupt it.

The sages wondered why Beresheit started with the Beit (backwards looking C) instead of the beginning of the alphabet, he Aleph. The Beit is closed on the top, closed on the bottom, and closed on the backside with the opening pointing towards the Word of God. They said don't look to what was behind us, don't speculate with such matters the scriptures are not clear about. Only focus on what The Lord provided in his Word, and don't go beyond that. Whatever state the earth was in at the time, it still got a pretty good cleansing of water. It may have been uncorrupted as was the Lamb of God who was immersed as well.

 

[jasoncran]

im not an isreali jew, but I say this"im of isreal" to mean that I am of that descent. genesis 1:10 cant be used that way since it has nothing to do with redemption nor cleansing.

As I alluded to in part one, baptism is not a New Testament doctrine. As a matter of fact, it is one of the very oldest teachings in the scriptures. The idea of immersing and or cleansing with or in water is old because ALL matter is cleansed in water in the beginning. Water is in the very, very beginning and directly associated with the Spirit of God.

B'reshiyth 1:2
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

The first action of God is to move upon the face of the waters. This is because all of God's creation will be first immersed in water. Two entities are brought forth first in the Word of God. Light and water, both of which are still being researched as to their essence, purpose and possibilities. The Holy Spirit or Spirit of God and water are used consistently all through scripture as figures, one of another.

Zechariah 14:8, John 7:38, Isaiah 44:8, John 3:5, 1 John 5:8, Revelation 22:17

These are but a handful of examples. But we must take note that the pattern placed by God has the Spirit of God moving first. What God will do for man, He does for the creation first. In restoring a fallen creation, God first moves on the face of the waters (B'reshiyth 1:2). This is because the earth will be cleansed by the waters a little later. He then brings forth light (1:3). Then He cleanses the earth with water (1:6-10). After that, the earth brings forth fruit (1:11-13). Then the creation is a witness through the sun, moon, and stars (1:14-19), and the result is life (1:20-27).

In verses nine and ten of B'reshiyth we have the earth baptized first. All the material from whence life will come from, is first immersed and then brought up out of the water.

B'reshiyth 1:9-10
"And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the GATHERING TOGETHER of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Apparently, the land was still underneath the waters a result of the fall of hasatan in the beginning. (A detail I cover in much detail in our B'reshiyth series. This writer holds to a source of the fall of hasatan in the beginning and NOT a doctrine involving pre-adamic beings, mortal sin before death or any such teaching.) AFTER the Spirit of God moves on the face of the waters, we have the earth coming up out of the waters. The phrase 'gathering together' in verse ten is the word ulemiqeveh. This Hebrew word is the word miqeveh. This is the Hebrew word for baptismal, or the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek baptizo. It means a place of gathering. The Creator begins by immersing and cleansing the earth within which all plants, animals and people come from. The cleansing power of water still fascinates man to this day. Science, as we speak, still does not fully comprehend it's abilities. The following is a quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Although it's formula (H2O) seems simple, water exhibits very complex chemical physical properties that are incompletely understood."

The full lesson is here https://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson138.html as I am much to dull and uneducated to interpret scripture in this manner.

This is the foundational idea of baptism that all subsequent scripture must rest upon. I think the idea of the rule of First Mentioning or some other hermeneutical term I can't remember that is so important to interpreting scripture.

you lost me as I don't buy into the earth being corrupted from satan prior to creation.that would imply that there was death. if you really want to go there. ramban actually says the firmaments were actually water. upper and lower water. he doesn't believe in the idea of Lilith. or a fall of satan and a pre adamic race that was corrupted by satan.i agree, since that would mean God rather then save his creation merely destroyed it and yet allowed satan once again to corrupt it.

The sages wondered why Beresheit started with the Beit (backwards looking C) instead of the beginning of the alphabet, he Aleph. The Beit is closed on the top, closed on the bottom, and closed on the backside with the opening pointing towards the Word of God. They said don't look to what was behind us, don't speculate with such matters the scriptures are not clear about. Only focus on what The Lord provided in his Word, and don't go beyond that. Whatever state the earth was in at the time, it still got a pretty good cleansing of water. It may have been uncorrupted as was the Lamb of God who was immersed as well.

uhm, I know what they say. I know that not all sages agree. the reason why disagree is that even those sages don't say that the creation event timeline from present to the day of adam's creation is older then what is always given. next the sun being formed from what? remember you said clearly that satan was ere the creation of the earth,. you then assumed where it said the angels were before day one. when the sages taught that the angels were on day 2.

if day 2 was correct and satan is one of them that fell, then how could it be?
I prefer ramban's idea as well then cometh Lilith. also before the woman eve.ramban also deals with what lights and darkness means and none of it really has a connonation of satan to it but God moving upon his creation. and things that are dark not moving. the letter uses is the vav.

 

[farouk]

Re. baptism, whatever allusions may be seen generally to washing, etc. in the Old Testament, it's the doctrinal signifiance that the New Testament gives to it that really counts, for the New Testament believer.

 

[jasoncran]

why is it that I now cringe when any Christian says old testament rather then tanach?

 

[JLB]

find out who the New Covenant is made with.

Romans:
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You do understand that almost all the New Testament epistles was written to churches that where made up mostly of gentile believers?

You are working to far ahead here George. You are trying to have later scripture written, interpret earlier scripture. That is backwards. Who is the New Covenant made with?

1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand;I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles, Isaiah 42:1-6

The New Covenant was always intended for the children of Abraham!

as it is written -

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- Jeremiah 31:31

Both of which are the line of Abraham.

as Paul teaches -

17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. Galatians 3:17

The New Covenant was made with the children of Abraham, who was a Gentile!


JLB

 

[Ryan]

you lost me as I don't buy into the earth being corrupted from satan prior to creation.that would imply that there was death. if you really want to go there. ramban actually says the firmaments were actually water. upper and lower water. he doesn't believe in the idea of Lilith. or a fall of satan and a pre adamic race that was corrupted by satan.i agree, since that would mean God rather then save his creation merely destroyed it and yet allowed satan once again to corrupt it.

The sages wondered why Beresheit started with the Beit (backwards looking C) instead of the beginning of the alphabet, he Aleph. The Beit is closed on the top, closed on the bottom, and closed on the backside with the opening pointing towards the Word of God. They said don't look to what was behind us, don't speculate with such matters the scriptures are not clear about. Only focus on what The Lord provided in his Word, and don't go beyond that. Whatever state the earth was in at the time, it still got a pretty good cleansing of water. It may have been uncorrupted as was the Lamb of God who was immersed as well.

uhm, I know what they say. I know that not all sages agree. the reason why disagree is that even those sages don't say that the creation event timeline from present to the day of adam's creation is older then what is always given. next the sun being formed from what? remember you said clearly that satan was ere the creation of the earth,. you then assumed where it said the angels were before day one. when the sages taught that the angels were on day 2.

if day 2 was correct and satan is one of them that fell, then how could it be?
I prefer ramban's idea as well then cometh Lilith. also before the woman eve.ramban also deals with what lights and darkness means and none of it really has a connonation of satan to it but God moving upon his creation. and things that are dark not moving. the letter uses is the vav.

The above was not my thoughts about the fall of satan, it was merely a teaching I found on the web. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with him when satan fell, for now it's just on the bookshelve waiting for a later date to get back to it.

why is it that I now cringe when any Christian says old testament rather then tanach?

Because you know New Testament and Old Testament is very leading and is the most damaging 4 words that are uninspired that has cast division within the scriptures, denominations, interpretations and people for far to long. The best thing one could do with their bible is rip those entire pages out. IMO.

Torah
Nevi'im
Ketuvim
Gospels
Acts
Epistles
Revelation is the way I learned to separate the books.

 

[Ryan]

find out who the New Covenant is made with.

Romans:
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You do understand that almost all the New Testament epistles was written to churches that where made up mostly of gentile believers?

You are working to far ahead here George. You are trying to have later scripture written, interpret earlier scripture. That is backwards. Who is the New Covenant made with?

1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand;I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles, Isaiah 42:1-6

[/B]

Chuckling really hard right now. His law." is none other then the Torah.
4 He will not H3543 fail nor be H7533 discouraged, till he have H7760 set H4941 justice in the H776 earth; and the H339 isles shall H3176 wait for his H8451 law.

Interestingly enough it goes onto say:

Isaiah 42:9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<SUP class=versenum>9 </SUP>“Behold, the <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>former things have come to pass,
Now I declare <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>new things;
Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.”

And what does Amos say about what the Lord does and who he consults with before he acts?

Amos 3:7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<SUP class=versenum>7 </SUP>Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

So the Lord will proclaim new things before they spring forth and he will reveal his will to the his prophets before he acts. Hmmm...

Now lets take another trip down logical lane. Or illogical lane whichever side of the fence you are on. To prove the 2 scriptures above, and for God to be honest, truthful and faithful God, please tell me or show me in what is called the OT, scriptures that point to the dissolution of the Sinai Covenant? You know you can't, and something as profound as the absolute annuling of the Sinai Covenant, there would have been scripture, upon scripture, upon scripture testifying and prophecying to the fact. But there is nary a word about it. At all. Go to any Orthodox Jew and tell him the verse that you point to as "his law" will be a different "Torah" then the one he has, well...use your imagination. They get a little protective if you try to destroy the Torah in that way.

I made a thread called "Dear US and Canada" and wondered how many people would have wanted to have done away with their own constitutions. Whether it was the constitutions that were at fault, or the people administering the constitution that was at fault. Safe to say, I believe people want to keep their constitutions and fix the administrators of such. But when it comes to God's constitution, people gladly and happily say it is no longer for them. The Law is God's constitution, but it can be easily changed and ignored because we are now in an era of greasy grace, and we have liberty to do what we want. God kept his constitution, and sent the Spirit to help us follow it. But we want to discard it like it was yesterdays news. That's sad. Really, really sad.

 

[JLB]

You are working to far ahead here George. You are trying to have later scripture written, interpret earlier scripture. That is backwards. Who is the New Covenant made with?

1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand;I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles, Isaiah 42:1-6

[/B]

Chuckling really hard right now. His law." is none other then the Torah.
4 He will not H3543 fail nor be H7533 discouraged, till he have H7760 set H4941 justice in the H776 earth; and the H339 isles shall H3176 wait for his H8451 law.

Interestingly enough it goes onto say:

Isaiah 42:9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“Behold, the <sup class="crossreference" value="(A)"></sup>former things have come to pass,
Now I declare <sup class="crossreference" value="(B)"></sup>new things;
Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.â€

And what does Amos say about what the Lord does and who he consults with before he acts?

Amos 3:7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He <sup class="crossreference" value="(A)"></sup>reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

Now lets take another trip down logical lane. Or illogical lane whichever side of the fence you are on. To disprove the 2 scriptures above, and for God to be an honest, truthful and faithful God, please tell me or show me in what is called the OT, scriptures that point to the dissolution of the Sinai Covenant? You know you can't, and something as profound as the absolute annuling of the Sinai Covenant, there would have been scripture, upon scripture, upon scripture testifying and prophecying to the fact. But there is nary a word about it. At all. Go to any Orthodox Jew and tell him the verse that you point to as "his law" will be a different "Torah" then the one he has, well...use your imagination. They get a little protective if you try to destroy the Torah in that way.

You can logic all you want around the scriptures.

The New Covenant is for Abraham's children which are both Jew and Gentile.

How else could he be a father of many nations.

His law is what He taught in Matthew 5:19-48.

Unless you can show from Moses Law where it says -

• But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

• But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

• But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

• But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.

• But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

• But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Please show from Moses law where these commandments are written, without adding even a jot or a tittle.


Jesus was teaching His Law, which is Kingdom Law, that is for Jew and Gentile alike.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

You are working to far ahead here George. You are trying to have later scripture written, interpret earlier scripture. That is backwards. Who is the New Covenant made with?

1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand;I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles, Isaiah 42:1-6

[/B]

Chuckling really hard right now. His law." is none other then the Torah.
4 He will not H3543 fail nor be H7533 discouraged, till he have H7760 set H4941 justice in the H776 earth; and the H339 isles shall H3176 wait for his H8451 law.

Interestingly enough it goes onto say:

Isaiah 42:9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“Behold, the <sup class="crossreference" value="(A)"></sup>former things have come to pass,
Now I declare <sup class="crossreference" value="(B)"></sup>new things;
Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.”

And what does Amos say about what the Lord does and who he consults with before he acts?

Amos 3:7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He <sup class="crossreference" value="(A)"></sup>reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

Now lets take another trip down logical lane. Or illogical lane whichever side of the fence you are on. To disprove the 2 scriptures above, and for God to be an honest, truthful and faithful God, please tell me or show me in what is called the OT, scriptures that point to the dissolution of the Sinai Covenant? You know you can't, and something as profound as the absolute annuling of the Sinai Covenant, there would have been scripture, upon scripture, upon scripture testifying and prophecying to the fact. But there is nary a word about it. At all. Go to any Orthodox Jew and tell him the verse that you point to as "his law" will be a different "Torah" then the one he has, well...use your imagination. They get a little protective if you try to destroy the Torah in that way.

You can logic all you want around the scriptures.

The New Covenant is for Abraham's children which are both Jew and Gentile.

How else could he be a father of many nations.

His law is what He taught in Matthew 5:19-48.

Unless you can show from Moses Law where it says -

• But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

• But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

• But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

• But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.

• But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

• But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Please show from Moses law where these commandments are written, without adding even a jot or a tittle.


Jesus was teaching His Law, which is Kingdom Law, that is for Jew and Gentile alike.


JLB

You're joking right? In your attempts to prove me wrong, you will argue any point, I mean any point to prove me wrong, of which that is your sole purpose is to stick it to the man, that man being me, to prove Jesus taught against his own Torah? Take the scales off, go pray and come back refreshed. What you are alluding to is a place I don't want to go. Everything he said and did had to agree with the Law of Moses. Had to. He could not be at enmity with himself

John 1

1 <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>In the beginning was <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>the Word, and the Word was <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>with God, and <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>the Word was God. <SUP class=versenum>2 </SUP>He was in the beginning with God. <SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. <SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(F)'></SUP>In Him was life, and the life was <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>the Light of men. <SUP class=versenum>5 </SUP><SUP class=crossreference value='(H)'></SUP>The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Word Made Flesh

<SUP class=versenum>14 </SUP>And <SUP class=crossreference value='(R)'></SUP>the Word <SUP class=crossreference value='(S)'></SUP>became flesh, and dwelt among us, and <SUP class=crossreference value='(U)'></SUP>we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of <SUP class=crossreference value='(V)'></SUP>grace and <SUP class=crossreference value='(W)'></SUP>truth.

 

[Sparkey]

In our rest we are to put on the garments of PRAISE for the spirit of heaviness.

"Your Joy is my strength, O Lord."

"... my strength, O Lord."

Let the Oil of Gladness flow down, from Your Throne!

Make these broken weary bones
rise to dance again,
Wet this dry and thirsty land
with a RIVER!

Be ye a God Pleaser! Yes, a happy Shabbat (cessation) to all who Rest in Him who is our Father.

Lord? Psalm 133 us.

 

[Ryan]

In our rest we are to put on the garments of PRAISE for the spirit of heaviness.

"Your Joy is my strength, O Lord."

"... my strength, O Lord."

Let the Oil of Gladness flow down, from Your Throne!

Make these broken weary bones
rise to dance again,
Wet this dry and thirsty land
with a RIVER!

Be ye a God Pleaser!

[video=youtube;3oG2q6bGoGk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oG2q6bGoGk[/video]


Love that song and Robin Mark. Easily my favoritist Shabbat song

 

[JLB]

Chuckling really hard right now. His law." is none other then the Torah.
4 He will not H3543 fail nor be H7533 discouraged, till he have H7760 set H4941 justice in the H776 earth; and the H339 isles shall H3176 wait for his H8451 law.

Interestingly enough it goes onto say:

Isaiah 42:9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“Behold, the <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-18490a&quot;"="" target="_blank">A)"></sup>former things have come to pass,
Now I declare <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-18490b&quot;"="" target="_blank">B)"></sup>new things;
Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.â€

And what does Amos say about what the Lord does and who he consults with before he acts?

Amos 3:7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-22403a&quot;"="" target="_blank">A)"></sup>reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

Now lets take another trip down logical lane. Or illogical lane whichever side of the fence you are on. To disprove the 2 scriptures above, and for God to be an honest, truthful and faithful God, please tell me or show me in what is called the OT, scriptures that point to the dissolution of the Sinai Covenant? You know you can't, and something as profound as the absolute annuling of the Sinai Covenant, there would have been scripture, upon scripture, upon scripture testifying and prophecying to the fact. But there is nary a word about it. At all. Go to any Orthodox Jew and tell him the verse that you point to as "his law" will be a different "Torah" then the one he has, well...use your imagination. They get a little protective if you try to destroy the Torah in that way.

You can logic all you want around the scriptures.

The New Covenant is for Abraham's children which are both Jew and Gentile.

How else could he be a father of many nations.

His law is what He taught in Matthew 5:19-48.

Unless you can show from Moses Law where it says -

• But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

• But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

• But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

• But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.

• But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

• But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


Please show from Moses law where these commandments are written, without adding even a jot or a tittle.


Jesus was teaching His Law, which is Kingdom Law, that is for Jew and Gentile alike.


JLB

You're joking right? In your attempts to prove me wrong, you will argue any point, I mean any point to prove me wrong, of which that is your sole purpose is to stick it to the man, that man being me, to prove Jesus taught against his own Torah? Take the scales off, go pray and come back refreshed. What you are alluding to is a place I don't want to go. Everything he said and did had to agree with the Law of Moses. Had to. He could not be at enmity with himself

John 1

1 <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26046a&quot;"="" target="_blank">A)"></sup>In the beginning was <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26046b&quot;"="" target="_blank">B)"></sup>the Word, and the Word was <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26046c&quot;"="" target="_blank">C)"></sup>with God, and <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26046d&quot;"="" target="_blank">D)"></sup>the Word was God. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>He was in the beginning with God. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup><sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26048e&quot;"="" target="_blank">E)"></sup>All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. <sup class="versenum">4 </sup><sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26049f&quot;"="" target="_blank">F)"></sup>In Him was life, and the life was <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26049g&quot;"="" target="_blank">G)"></sup>the Light of men. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup><sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26050h&quot;"="" target="_blank">H)"></sup>The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Word Made Flesh

<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>And <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26059r&quot;"="" target="_blank">R)"></sup>the Word <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26059s&quot;"="" target="_blank">S)"></sup>became flesh, and dwelt among us, and <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26059u&quot;"="" target="_blank">U)"></sup>we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26059v&quot;"="" target="_blank">V)"></sup>grace and <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=" http:="" www.christianforums.net="" &quot;http:="" #cen-nasb-26059w&quot;"="" target="_blank">W)"></sup>truth.

Ryan,

Please show from Moses Law, the verses from Matthew 5 that I listed.

From Moses Law.

If you can not, then Jesus was not teaching Moses Law.

God's Law on the other hand, is what Abraham walked in -

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

These are God's Eternal Law. No special feast days. No special food laws. No special clothing requirements.

Just Gods kingdom Law which has at it's foundation, obeying His voice.

Now show me from Moses Law where the commandments that I listed, are written.

Remember you said to George -

You are trying to have later scripture written, interpret earlier scripture. That is backwards.

When I asked you to show from the Law of Moses, you quoted New Testament scripture.

That is backwards.


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

Ryan,

Please show from Moses Law, the verses from Matthew 5 that I listed.

From Moses Law.

If you can not, then Jesus...

Guys? I will ask that this debate stop as we are in General Talk and the Subject is "Happy Sabbath". This is not the right venue for debate.

Moderator

 

[JLB]

Ryan,

Please show from Moses Law, the verses from Matthew 5 that I listed.

From Moses Law.

If you can not, then Jesus...

Guys? I will ask that this debate stop as we are in General Talk and the Subject is "Happy Sabbath". This is not the right venue for debate.

Moderator

OK