I’m saved – I can do anything I want

[AVBunyan]

AV,

1.I hope that your surgery turns out to be a success.

2. 've been going back over some of my posts here in this thread, and your responses to them. You made the comment...

3. It is my view that here Paul is taking to/about OBEDIENT Christians. Looking at the beginning of this passage...

Hi farley - real quick (left-handed typing - slowwwwwww!!!)
1. It went fine - thanks
2. Good
3. The word obedient is not in the context or even the issue. Look at the context of Ephesians 1 - it is dealing with posional truths - truths that have already taken place -

Here is a post that I posted somewhere a while back - I want to give your present post some more thought but in the meantime allow me to re-post this until I can type again:

The Absurdity of Losing Salvation
If You Believe You Can Lose Your Salvation…
It Is Possible You May Have Missed What Calvary Is About

There is much talk today about losing salvation. The issue is not that can one lose his salvation but the truth of the matter is the real issue is they don't know what really happened at Calvary . These people don't understand at all the doctrine of salvation.

The heart of the matter is how is the sinner brought back into the proper standing so that he can have fellowship with God. To put it more simply, how is a man saved today. Man's dilemma is how can he become righteous before God. In order for the sinner to spend eternity with God he must be holy before God (Heb. 12:14; Hab. 1:13). The sinner has to be reconciled and justified before God in order to spend eternity with God.

Part I. Let's first look at the condition of the unsaved man. He is lost (II Cor. 4:3), having no hope (Eph. 2:12), separated (Isa. 59:2), unregenerate (Titus 3:5), darkened Eph. 4:18, unprofitable (Rom. 3:12), and under the wrath of God (John 3:36), and in the flesh Rom. 8:8. He is stuck in the mud big time. A dead man cannot pull himself up out of the miry muck for he is dead!

Part II. Without going into all the doctrine of salvation let's just look at what God did to the sinner. There were several things that God did to bring the sinner into the family of God. By a supernatural work of God the sinner was reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10), made righteous (Rom. 3:22), justified (Rom. 3:24), and redeemed (Gal. 3:13). Then as a result some more things happened: the saint was sealed (Eph. 2:6), seated (Eph. 2:6), saved Eph. 2:8, adopted (Eph. 1:5), quickened (Eph. 2:5), circumcised (Col. 2: 11), raised up (Eph. 2:6), forgiven (Col. 1:14), blessed (Eph. 1:3), accepted (Eph. 1:6), sanctified (Col. 1:30), put into the body of Christ and made to be bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (Eph. 5:30) and glorified (Rom. 8:30). This is quite a work, I might say.

Now the above fourteen things (and probably more) happened instantaneously when God saved the sinner. So, the people who say they can lose their salvation are saying that they or God can or will undo all of Part II and go back to Part I. Now let's see how one can lose their salvation. When we talk of one losing their salvation we are talking about the person in Part II. We are talking about the one who lived after Calvary and before the Tribulation period who had at least 14 different miraculous things done to him regarding his salvation. Instead of listing all the verses you have used in the past I will just list where they are found. When we talk about one losing his salvation we are not directing it to:

1. Jews or Gentiles under the Old Testament Law before Calvary (Gen. - Mal.).

2. Jews and Gentile during the gospels, which basically fall into the first category of being before Calvary (Gospels).

3. Unbelieving Jews Paul was directing Hebrews 3 and 5 to (Hebrews).

4. The 12 tribes scattered abroad in James, which doctrinally deals with the tribulation period (Hebrews thru Revelation).

5. Unbelieving Jew or Gentile during the Tribulation period – primarily the book of Revelation.

Most of the verses you use to try and prove a saint can lose his salvation in this age of grace are found in the above books to in Paul's epistles (except Hebrews of Paul wrote Hebrews).

The person we want you to show to us that can lose their salvation is that blood-bought redeemed sinner after Calvary where Christ died for their sins.

Let's look at this – we have a sinner saved by grace today and falls into the Part II category (redeemed, saved, regenerated, sealed, etc.). At some point in his life he loses his salvation based upon some mysterious way that you have conjured up (whatever that may be). I am assuming at that point he becomes unreconciled, made unrighteous, unjustified, unredeemed. Then as a result of his “unpardonable sin†or whatever criteria you have dreamed up for one to lose his salvation he becomes unsealed, unseated, unsaved, unadopted, unquickened, uncircumcised, unraised, unforgiven, unblessed, unaccepted, unsanctified, unglorified again, and finally, kicked out of Christ's physical body! In other words this saint loses his salvation by doing something or a bunch of things??? And then all that God did for him (Part II) gets undone! The poor ex-saint is back to Part I again!

Let's carry this further – now the poor, lost, ex-saint gets saved again!!! Now God reapplies all of Part II and all is ok – but then he blows it again and all is undone again and he is back to Part I!!! And then he repents and he's back to Part II! Does anyone see how ridiculous this is getting? If you can give me one example of this happening in the scriptures I might listen. I know you will say that once he loses it he can never get it back again – yes, real neat system you have there.

The problem (or blessing) is this – the sinner was reconciled by the DEATH OF CHRIST. The sinner was JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST and made RIGHTEOUS and SEALED UNTILL the DAY OF REDEMPTION – DONE FOREVER and nothing you can do can undo that!

Now, you can show me where a man before Calvary does not have this blessing and that a man in the tribulation does not have this blessing but you can't show me in Paul's epistles during this age of grace after Calvary that a man can fall out of what God put him into today!

If you still think you can lose your salvation then you are doing something to lose your salvation and you are not trusting Christ to keep you. You say, “I believed on Christ and he will do his part but I have to do my part or keep from doing something that will cause me to fall away.†Then if that is the case then you are still trusting yourself to endure to the end so in reality you are not trusting Christ at all you are counting on you to hold out till the end, which is, works salvation, which is a sure ticket to hell.

Instead of trying to prove you can lose it why not spend some time seeing what really took place at Calvary and then you would not be spending time trying to show people you can lose it.

May God bless

 

[Heidi]

Good post, as usual. Av. I'm glad all went well.

I just find it so hard to believe that so many don't know what calvary is all about when that is the good news! the knowledge of our salvation is the first elementary principle of Christianty which is what brings us joy! Ephesians tells us that we have been marked with a seal which is a deposit guaranteeing our redemption!

The hope the bible is talking about is not the hope the world is talking about. When the world talks about hope, it is almost doubt! They are hoping and hoping that something will happen. But spiritual hope is looking forward to the fulfillment in the new Jerusalem of what God has planned for those he has chosen. This hope means confidence and knowledge. It is not doubt.

Thanks again, Av.

 

[farley]

AV,

That was some reply with only one hand!!!

You reference a lot of good points. But, these good points do not make all of the other Scripture, which conflicts with your message, go away.

Such as, for starters...

1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

...and...

John 15:1-10 KJV
(1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
(2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
(3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
(4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
(5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
(6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
(7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
(8) Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
(9) As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
(10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

...and, probably my favorite...

James 5:19-20 KJV
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I wish that I could be smarter than I am. But, since I'm not, I have got to work with just what I've got. Until you or someone can figure out a way to reconcile your references with those above, plus many more like those above, in harmony; I am going to have to continue to see your references as directed to FAITHFUL Christians, and my references as directed to UNFAITHFUL Christians.

Obviously, if OSAS were an easy subject to resolve, all of the other many threads on it would not exist. This is really sad!!!

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

AV,

1. That was some reply with only one hand!!!

2. 1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

3. John 15:1-10 KJV

4. James 5:19-20 KJV

Hi farley -
1. Most of the above post was a cut-and paste.
2. Where do you get the idea that departing from the faith is loosing salvation? Who taught you that?
3. You are dealing with a great passage but this was before anybody was in the body of Christ - Ephesians
4. Who was James written to? see James 1:1 What period of time does this sound like?

Question Farley - Hypethetically speaking here - If you were to die right now and stand before God and God were to ask you, "Mr. Farley, why should I let you in to heaven?" What would your answer be?

Are you going to tell him it was because you were an obedient believer?
How impressed do you think he be?

God bless

 

[Solo]

farley,
What is the eternal state of the individual that Paul is speaking of turning him over to satan that his flesh be destroyed?

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5


Salvation is not a conditional act of God, it is a free gift whereby all believers are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit regardless of the flesh. The born again portion of the believer is the NEW creature that will be in the Kingdom of God for eternity. The individuals who Jesus NEVER knew will not be in the Kingdom of God.

 

[farley]

AV,

You asked…

<<<<2. Where do you get the idea that departing from the faith is loosing salvation? Who taught you that?>>>>

Rather than offer a barrage of verses, which yield the same ultimate message, let’s just look at one passage.

Luke 8:11-15 KJV
(11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
(12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
(13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
(14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
(15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Looking at the above parable, I notice that the seeds can fall into four different situations. 1) To the wayside, 2) On to a rock, 3) Among the thorns, and finally, 4) On to good ground. In the real life of this world, seeds as those above will experience different outcomes.

So, I think, will the faithful and unfaithful people of this world.

Now, as to your points 3 and 4, I’m just going to have to trust in my understanding that the whole purpose of Christ being sent to live and die in this world was to bring the good news of a new covenant between God and mankind. All of mankind, Jew and Gentile alike, while keeping the following passage in mind…

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You can focus on pre-body this and post-Calvary that if you like, and that Hebrews and James doesn’t apply to Gentiles if you desire, but if it is in the NT, all I’m seeing is one great big message, as per the same passage above!

And, when I stand before God, I plan to immediately drop to the ground, groveling and begging for mercy.

Solo – Then how do you explain the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6?

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

Jusitifcation

1. Luke 8:11-15 KJV & 2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
2. And, when I stand before God, I plan to immediately drop to the ground, groveling and begging for mercy.

1. Where did you get the idea these verses have anything at all to do with how a man is justified before God?
2. It will be to late to beg for mercy.

At this very moment I am:
Forgiven, redeemed, glorified, sanctified, seated in heavenly places in Christ, righteous in Christ, a son of God, sealed, a part of Christ's body, blessed, justified, delievered, regenerated, quickened, accepted in the beloved, saved, and abot 20 more different things.

Now, Farley - how is the sinner going to undo those mighty works of God done by God? By being disobedient, you say? How disobedient? How much does it take? Where is he line drawn? How is the sinner going to jump out of Christ (who is in heaven) and undo all what God did?

So, if I were to stand before God and he would ask me (and He won't for it is settled) then I would say:

"Because, Lord the Lord Jesus Christ became sin for me who knew no sin that I might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Lord, I'm here because of what Christ did in my sted at Calvary. Christ died for my snsand his sacrifice was sufficient!"

Question farley - Are you perfect and righteous in Jesus Christ right this minute?

I am....
1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Do you have the righteousness of God? you better because that is what God requires.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Or...are you hoping you will get it by bein faithful and obedient unto the end?

Would you mind showing me where your faithfulness and obedinece will justify you and make you righteous?

You haven't yet farley - all you've done is taken every verse that deals with faith and obedience and applied it to justification.

Your focus on salvation is you - very dangerous farley - all your begging at God's feet will get you nowhere.

Hey farley - how are you going to transform yourself from a pile of dung (sinner's standing) into a perfect, righteous, and sinless son of God? By your faith and obedience? My that is some power you have! :o

 

[Solo]

Solo – Then how do you explain the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6?

In Christ,

farley

Farley,

I will answer your question by posting Hebrews 6. The book of Hebrews was written by a Christian Hebrew to other Christian Hebrews encouraging them to live in the grace provided by Jesus, not the rituals and rites of Judaism.

In verses 1 -3 the writer of Hebrews is teaching the Hebrew Christians that the foundation of Jesus has been laid, so in leaving that foundation of faith in Jesus Christ, there is no need to lay the old ritualistic rites of the old way of repentance from dead works, faith towards God, baptism doctrines, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment, since all has changed due to the foundation of faith that Jesus laid. It was once possible with the old sacrifice routine whereby if the Jew missed a sacrifice for sin, he would make it up another day, but now since Jesus' sacrifice once for all, it is impossible for those to crucify Jesus Christ again for their new sin. The new sin has been paid for by Jesus first and only crucifixion. Those that were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers to come, if they fall away, there is no other sacrifice that can be made that can beat the one that Jesus made. Jesus' sacrifice paid the price one time for all sins to those who are born again. If a believer is to fall, there is not a repentance sacrifice that can be made other than the one that has already been paid by the Lord Jesus Christ.

If a believer is to fall, can he now repent and be redeemed from his sin? Yes. If that is the case then the verses in Hebrews must mean that as I explained otherwise there is no repentance for any sin that one commits. The scripture verses in Revelation to the seven churches tell six of the seven to repent otherwise their candlestick will be removed. That means that repentance is possible for believers otherwise their witness, their light, will not shine to an unbelieving world; the salt will lose its savor and what good is that?

We are exhorted in Hebrews 6 to abide in Christ so that we are fruitful in our Christian walk. We are exhorted to be diligent and not slothful, patient and not anxious so that we can continue to follow those of faith into our promises. We are promised rewards, tree of life, heirs with Jesus, etc.

Beginning in verse 17 we are told that God willingly and more abundantly shows the heirs of his promise the immutability of his counsel (counsel incapable of change) confirming it (his promise) by an oath. His oath is that those that are born again by believing in Jesus Christ will be saved and are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit, God himself.
Two immutable things guarantee this; 1) It is impossible for God to lie, and 2)that we have a strong consolation by laying a hold upon the hope of Jesus Christ who is the anchor of our soul, sure and stedfast, through the veil of the Holy of Holies he entered as a forerunner for us as the high priest forever.

We have been signed, sealed, and delivered into eternity for all time by the signature of blood from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen.

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. 17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 6:1-20

I hope this helps your understanding. I too used to believe that you could lose your salvation, but it did not set right with me thinking that something that God does could fail. When I came to understand that it is not me saving myself, but God saving me, then I knew that I just could not mess it up. God continues to pick me up when I fall away, and after 22 years of salvation I must admit, I am not as spiritually mature as I would have been had I not fallen numerous times.

God's oath and His immutable counsel are immense confirmations to the health and welfare of the souls of his children, whom the devil will never break away from him.

Solo

 

[SpiritualSon]

Re: I’m saved – I can do anything I want

I was once lost as a goose in a snow storm – God, out of love, drew me with his Spirit, regenerated me, opened my eyes and I gloriously saved. God forgave me, redeemed me, sealed me with his holy Spirit of promise, put me into he body of Christ and raised me up and seated me in heavenly places in Christ.

And now…I can do what ever I want! I can smoke, get drunk, steal, and run around on my wife, cheat, lie, chase filthy women, and any other thing my mind can imagine.

Now that your gaskets are blown let me explain.

Yes, I can do the above and am quite capable of doing the above due to my old nature but…but…but guess what? Because of the work God did in me at salvation in making me a new creature I don’t want to the do the above.

Here is where some of get confused.

1. Because I’ve been regenerated doesn’t mean the old nature went away. The old nature (flesh) would love to do the above if it could. You folks have got to realize just how depraved your old nature really is. The old nature never got eradicated at salvation. You are still just as capable of committing the worse of sins. But what keeps me in check?

2. What keeps me in check is the Holy Spirit that indwells in me. God made me a new creature – old things passed away – all things have become new. The battle rages but now I have the Spirit in me that checks that desire and has given me new desires.

But I didn’t get saved by quitting doing the above and I won’t lose my salvation by committing the above. My salvation is not dependent upon what I do or don’t do.

I’m safe in the body of Christ sealed until the day of redemption.

The true grace believer seeks to please God out of a debt of love.
The true grace believer seeks to walk after the Spirit knowing that his old nature is still there seeking to rear its ugly head at any moment.

You folks assume that because we believe we are safe that that gives us a license to sin. We never believed that and don’t know of a grace believer that believes that.

The greatest Christian writers ever were the Puritans of the 1600’s and the 1700’s and guess what? They lived holy and guess what – they believed they were secure in Christ.

In order to be saved, one must look to the Lord and shun evil because they are sins. Do good,because good is from God. You believe God pays no attention to man's behavior, and that he is saved no matter how he lives, as long as he believes. Your church's doctrine is base on faith alone. Paul preached repentance and faith towords Jesus Christ. The Lord also repentance. Repentance is the first thing of the church in man. Faith is not the tree that bears good fruit, man is the tree. Jesus said, "He that is in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing.

He also said," If any man hears My words and does them not, is like a man who builts his house on sand, and when the rains and floods came the house would not stand."

Harry :fadein:

 

[AVBunyan]

I too used to believe that you could lose your salvation, but it did not set right with me thinking that something that God does could fail. When I came to understand that it is not me saving myself, but God saving me, then I knew that I just could not mess it up. God continues to pick me up when I fall away, and after 22 years of salvation I must admit, I am not as spiritually mature as I would have been had I not fallen numerous times.

God's oath and His immutable counsel are immense confirmations to the health and welfare of the souls of his children, whom the devil will never break away from him.

Solo

Nicely put Solo - I was blessed by your post

God bless

 

[farley]

AV,

You asked…

<<<<1. Where did you get the idea these verses have anything at all to do with how a man is justified before God?>>>>

I don’t, that was my response to your question about why I think departing from faith is losing salvation.

The emphasis on justification in this discussion is all coming from you. I see justification as an automatic by-product of salvation via properly observing the five-step process found in the NT.

<<<<Now, Farley - how is the sinner going to undo those mighty works of God done by God? By being disobedient, you say? How disobedient? How much does it take? Where is he line drawn? How is the sinner going to jump out of Christ (who is in heaven) and undo all what God did?>>>>

Hmmm…this is confusing to me! I don’t see salvation, or justification, as something a sinner obtains by undoing a work of God’s. Rather, it is the sinner repenting of his sins, the undoing, or atoning, of his transgressions, as per God’s desire, as a necessary step for salvation.

I think that you have terribly misunderstood me. I don’t see disobedience as earning anyone anything but condemnation. A disobedient Christian must repent and become an obedient Christian, again, to restore his salvation.

<<<<Question farley - Are you perfect and righteous in Jesus Christ right this minute?>>>>

Not unless OSAS turns out to be true!!!

BTW – If you’ll notice in verse 20 below “…observe all things that I have commanded you…†is in the past tense. I take this to mean that the Gospels alone contain the total message of salvation, wouldn’t you agree?

Matthew 28:19-20 ESV
(19) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(20) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Solo,

I intend to give you an in depth reply when time permits. Thanks very much for your comments.

In Christ,

farley

 

[Solo]

I too used to believe that you could lose your salvation, but it did not set right with me thinking that something that God does could fail. When I came to understand that it is not me saving myself, but God saving me, then I knew that I just could not mess it up. God continues to pick me up when I fall away, and after 22 years of salvation I must admit, I am not as spiritually mature as I would have been had I not fallen numerous times.

God's oath and His immutable counsel are immense confirmations to the health and welfare of the souls of his children, whom the devil will never break away from him.

Solo

Nicely put Solo - I was blessed by your post

God bless

Thanks, AV.
There is unity of the Spirit when the Spirit is given the reign of our understanding. I used to be very legalistic in my early Christian walk, as I have the spiritual gift of prophesy, but my mercy gift was one of the lower scores. Thankfully my wife's gift of giving and mercy have tempered my condition. I still come across pretty black and white on all issues, but that is my make up. I am glad that God being an absolute black and white righteous God has a merciful side full of grace. I am also glad that salvation is dependent upon him and not me, for if it was up to me to keep it, I would be lost at the most inconvenient time! :o
Michael

 

[AVBunyan]

AV,

1. The emphasis on justification in this discussion is all coming from you. I see justification as an automatic by-product of salvation via properly observing the five-step process found in the NT.

2. Now, Farley - how is the sinner going to undo those mighty works of God done by God? By being disobedient, you say? How disobedient? How much does it take? Where is he line drawn? How is the sinner going to jump out of Christ (who is in heaven) and undo all what God did?>>>>

Rather, it is the sinner repenting of his sins, the undoing, or atoning, of his transgressions, as per God’s desire, as a necessary step for salvation.

3. I think that you have terribly misunderstood me.

1. Would you mind putting out this "5 Step Salvation Process" again for review.

2. You never answered how the "saint" by disobedeince will undo all that God did in Ephesians 1.

3. Oh I do understand you perfectly - It is you who does not understand the doctrine of salvation from God's viewpoint.

God bless

 

[farley]

AV,

Let me post this thought before it slips my mind (I’ll respond to your questions later).

Regarding “faithâ€Â, its definition and its application. I have already expressed my concern over your interpretation of the archaic English (my words) used in the KJV. You referenced several verses which used “…faith of Christ…â€Âin the KJV, where these same verses were rendered “…faith in Christ…†in most other English translations of the Bible.

The whole chapter of Hebrews 11 is devoted to “faithâ€Â. In each of the many examples of faith found in this chapter, all are of mans faith in God! Not one depicts God faith in man!! If we look at the first verse of Hebrews 11, it is easy to see why!!!

Hebrews 11:1 KJV
(1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Here, above, we see Paul’s inspired definition of FAITH. Nothing here applies to the Father or the Son. Our Lord knows everyman’s heart. FAITH can only apply to something which is NOT known. God has foreknowledge (this is different from predestination) of everyone of us, FAITH has no application here.

Christ sees us as a known quantity. Some what like us looking out a window at a building next door. We don’t need to have FAITH that there’s a building next door (unless we’re psychotic). We can see that there’s a building next door. Christ doesn’t need FAITH in US, He knows us.

BTW…your own comfort with Predestination most assuredly would rule out Christ’s FAITH in us as a factor. One personally may have faith IN Predestination, but Predestination, by its very definition eliminates the need for faith.

The following verse sums this comment up nicely, in my view…

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

AV,
Let me post this thought before it slips my mind (I’ll respond to your questions later). Regarding “faithâ€Â, its definition and its application.

I think what you are referring to is a practical faith - I'm referring to the faith that justifies which is Christ's.

One's faith in God does not justify.

God bless

 

[farley]

AV,

I think what you are referring to is a practical faith - I'm referring to the faith that justifies which is Christ's.

Hmmm...I'm referring to the faith that Paul is talking about. The one defined in the NT. I remember you praising Paul's messages in another thread. The faith Paul is talking about!!!

If Christ had had to rely only on faith when dealing with the lawyers who repeatedly were trying to get Him to condemn Himself with their trick questions, He would have been disappointed, but He knew their hearts, just as He knows ours, and avoided their treachery until He was ready to endure their evil.

The examples above, are proof to me, that Christ did not, and is not, relying on His faith to save man.

I think, due to the archaic English, where you see "...faith of Christ...", you should truly be seeing "...faith in Christ...".


In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

I think, due to the archaic English, where you see "...faith of Christ...", you should truly be seeing "...faith in Christ...".

Farley - you go ahead and stick with your faith and the new bibles.

I'll stick with Christ's faith and the Bible that has been doing the work for almost 400 years.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

AV,

I think what you are referring to is a practical faith - I'm referring to the faith that justifies which is Christ's.

Hmmm...I'm referring to the faith that Paul is talking about. The one defined in the NT. I remember you praising Paul's messages in another thread. The faith Paul is talking about!!!

If Christ had had to rely only on faith when dealing with the lawyers who repeatedly were trying to get Him to condemn Himself with their trick questions, He would have been disappointed, but He knew their hearts, just as He knows ours, and avoided their treachery until He was ready to endure their evil.

The examples above, are proof to me, that Christ did not, and is not, relying on His faith to save man.

I think, due to the archaic English, where you see "...faith of Christ...", you should truly be seeing "...faith in Christ...".


In Christ,

farley

No. It is not 'archaic English.' "Faith in Christ," so to speak, is an exercise of His faith, given. It is the faith of Christ that saved us. "If it be permissible, let this Cup pass from Me- but nevertheless, not My will, but Yours."
I did not drink that Cup, nor have you- He did, once for all.

His faith. That's grace, sir.

 

[Solo]

AV,

I think what you are referring to is a practical faith - I'm referring to the faith that justifies which is Christ's.

Hmmm...I'm referring to the faith that Paul is talking about. The one defined in the NT. I remember you praising Paul's messages in another thread. The faith Paul is talking about!!!

If Christ had had to rely only on faith when dealing with the lawyers who repeatedly were trying to get Him to condemn Himself with their trick questions, He would have been disappointed, but He knew their hearts, just as He knows ours, and avoided their treachery until He was ready to endure their evil.

The examples above, are proof to me, that Christ did not, and is not, relying on His faith to save man.

I think, due to the archaic English, where you see "...faith of Christ...", you should truly be seeing "...faith in Christ...".


In Christ,

farley

No. It is not 'archaic English.' "Faith in Christ," so to speak, is an exercise of His faith, given. It is the faith of Christ that saved us. "If it be permissible, let this Cup pass from Me- but nevertheless, not My will, but Yours."
I did not drink that Cup, nor have you- He did, once for all.

His faith. That's grace, sir.

I like the phrase that you used........."I did not drink that Cup, nor have you- He did, once for all."

I do believe that that our faith is in the work of Jesus Christ and by believing that he died for our sins, and that he rose from the dead that we are saved. We are saved by grace through faith not of ourselves, but by the gift given from God.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[Solo]

I'm still waiting farley. Please respond. ing: