Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some.

[francisdesales]

Your lack of giving the teaching of salvation by being born again speaks loudly. Your stand is evident that your position is false, for the teaching of salvation is the crux of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for confirming my discernment of your position.

It speaks loudly that I tire speaking to you and being told I am wrong BECAUSE I am Catholic, rather than the teachings that I put forward.

And since when is "the teaching of salvation the crux of the Gospel"?

The Kerygma is "Jesus, the Nazorean, whom you have crucified, God has raised from the dead" Acts 2:23-24.


Regards

 

[Solo]

It speaks loudly that I tire speaking to you and being told I am wrong BECAUSE I am Catholic, rather than the teachings that I put forward.

And since when is "the teaching of salvation the crux of the Gospel"?

The Kerygma is "Jesus, the Nazorean, whom you have crucified, God has raised from the dead" Acts 2:23-24.


Regards

You do not know that gospel of Jesus Christ? That is not surprising either.

 

[francisdesales]

And since when is "the teaching of salvation the crux of the Gospel"?

The Kerygma is "Jesus, the Nazorean, whom you have crucified, God has raised from the dead" Acts 2:23-24.

Regards

You do not know that gospel of Jesus Christ? That is not surprising either.

Sorry, but the Bible disagrees with you. My quote from Acts is the Christian proclamation, not "I am saved by faith alone"! Where exactly do the Christians make your supposed proclamation again in Sacred Scriptures?

Ironically, your focus on legalism through such artificially contrived doctrines such as "imputed righteousness" shows your lack of understanding that the Gospel revolves around Jesus Christ's teaching of Love, culminating on the Cross. The Resurrection makes clear the success of Christ's power of Love for the Father and for mankind.

The Gospel is not about you. It is about God's Love for mankind.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

francisdesales, why do you not address any the scripture that I post concerning this matter, then deny it exists? Are you pretending that it's not there?

Have you ever read the Bible?

I don't interpret the Sacred Scriptures with your particular lenses. Again, I totally disagree with Mr. Macarthur's contention that the New Testament's main teaching was justification by faith. That is an absurd statement when one reads the Church Fathers and finds that it is a secondary concern. Divinization and theosis is much more discussed as the key part of the New Testament teaching - becoming God-like through a transformation by the Spirit.

Yes, I have read the Bible... :roll:

francisdesales, do you not understand? You are the legalist. You, who seek to justify yourself before God by your own works, are strongly implying that Christ's blood is insufficient. You are the *self*-righteous that Jesus rebuked and warned against in scripture.

I see you turned that "conveyor belt" on - you know, the one where you push the button of "faith", and the "works" just pop on out of your mouth automatically? :roll:

What basis do you use to make such accusations? I said nothing about my beliefs at this point in the conversation.

The doctrine of our justification before God is separate from the results of being justified.

Dave, I have AMPLY shown from Scripture that the term "justification" is interchangeable with "salvation" and "sanctification" in various places. Justification/sanctification are synonymous and both refer to a journey, not to ONLY a one-time process. But you got "busy", you said, so I guess you couldn't respond to those many Scripture verses that you have no answer for... I notice you even started a new thread the next day so no one else would see me refuting your idea. Hmm, perhaps a coincidence... If you'd like, I can repost that so you can again contemplate how your above idea is incorrect.

If you have something to say to Luther, then say it to Luther. I don't recall swearing my loyalties to Luther or even quoting him one time in this thread. I never said that man is a pile of manure, he is unclean because of sin, and I will state very plainly that as far as our justification before God goes, our works are a pile of manure. Actually, Paul call any attempt at self righteousness "rubbish", a more proper translation is "dung".

Really... You swear no allegiance to Luther, then go ahead and "plainly state" his exact same incorrect and unholy ideas. OF COURSE SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS is as dung, as Paul states! But Luther doesn't say that. He says that we "are beasts ridden by either God or the Devil..." Thus, his analogy of man as a pile of manure means that EVEN WHEN TRANSFORMED BY GOD HIMSELF, we still remain as nothing, STILL a pile of manure. Thus, we are NEVER transformed INTERNALLY - and the invention of the legal imputation is brought out to twist the Scriptures to say what it doesn't say...

Of course, this came from a man who was obsessively scrupulous and was ever-fearful of God, rather than coming to God out of love. Naturally, such a charecter couldn't image man could do anything WITH God...

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

ONE'S OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS - WITHOUT GOD INVOLVED!

We don't have any righteousness of our own. But Scripture says over and over that people are righteous. Thus, rather that the usual false dichotomy of "either/or", the Scripture clearly tells us that OUR (me transformed by God) righteousness is necessary to enter the Kingdom.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20

OF COURSE we don't have righteousness without God. But it is still ours, because by faith we continue to live IN CHRIST! It is OUR (Christ and mine) righteousness when I turn to the Spirit and by grace, my faith works through love. Thus, when I do something good, it is Christ AND I doing it, since He is moving my will and I desire to follow it, as was earlier related in Phil 2:12-13. We BOTH are involved, unlike Luther and your misunderstanding of anthropology.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Sorry, but the Bible disagrees with you. My quote from Acts is the Christian proclamation, not "I am saved by faith alone"! Where exactly do the Christians make your supposed proclamation again in Sacred Scriptures?

Ironically, your focus on legalism through such artificially contrived doctrines such as "imputed righteousness" shows your lack of understanding that the Gospel revolves around Jesus Christ's teaching of Love, culminating on the Cross. The Resurrection makes clear the success of Christ's power of Love for the Father and for mankind.

The Gospel is not about you. It is about God's Love for mankind.

Regards

The Good News is about God's Love for the World that by the blood of Jesus Christ the world can be saved by repenting and believing upon Jesus Christ. At that moment of belief after hearing the Word of God, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within the believer and seals that believer until the day of redemption. That my friend is the gospel, and the gospel of the Roman Catholic church is the gospel of the father of lies, satan himself. Satan has blinded you from the truth. Very sad, but I will continue to pray for you.

 

[francisdesales]

The Good News is about God's Love for the World that by the blood of Jesus Christ the world can be saved by repenting and believing upon Jesus Christ. At that moment of belief after hearing the Word of God, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within the believer and seals that believer until the day of redemption. That my friend is the gospel, and the gospel of the Roman Catholic church is the gospel of the father of lies, satan himself. Satan has blinded you from the truth. Very sad, but I will continue to pray for you.

What exactly does "believing UPON Jesus Christ mean"? How does that differ then believing IN Jesus Christ?

Is this a one-time moment, that once you believe, you are eternally saved, no matter if your belief subsequently fails?

Where does love fit into that formula above? Without love, faith is nothing.

---

As to your libel, your fruits continue to express which "spirit" leads you... How exactly is your reply conducive to civil discussion? Are you even ABLE to hold an adult discussion with someone who holds a different opinion than you? I have had similar experiences before with other people via internet, and I am beginning to wonder if you are even an adult but rather an adolescent upset about his parents grounding him or something... I find it difficult to believe that an adult Christian would continue to act in such a fashion.

From the several weeks we have been in discussion, I see your attitude is not an aberration, but a consistently nasty, un-Christian attitude that you have towards someone who also believes in Jesus Christ as his savior.

Sad to see a person who supposedly reads the Scriptures to act in this manner so consistently...

 

[Solo]

What exactly does "believing UPON Jesus Christ mean"? How does that differ then believing IN Jesus Christ?

Is this a one-time moment, that once you believe, you are eternally saved, no matter if your belief subsequently fails?

Where does love fit into that formula above? Without love, faith is nothing.

---

As to your libel, your fruits continue to express which "spirit" leads you... How exactly is your reply conducive to civil discussion? Are you even ABLE to hold an adult discussion with someone who holds a different opinion than you? I have had similar experiences before with other people via internet, and I am beginning to wonder if you are even an adult but rather an adolescent upset about his parents grounding him or something... I find it difficult to believe that an adult Christian would continue to act in such a fashion.

From the several weeks we have been in discussion, I see your attitude is not an aberration, but a consistently nasty, un-Christian attitude that you have towards someone who also believes in Jesus Christ as his savior.

Sad to see a person who supposedly reads the Scriptures to act in this manner so consistently...

My love for you is warning you from the deception that you have bought into from the father of lies. The Roman Catholic Church is teaching false doctrines of devils, denying the justification which is in Christ Jesus' work on the cross apart from man's lies and deception cast upon the laity of the Roman Catholic hierchy. You, my friend, are unable to speak to the truth of what being born again is, and in return reply in ad hominem attacks to sway the direction of the conversation.

Justification comes by believing in Jesus Christ as the word of God is revealed to an unbeliever by the Holy Spirit, after which the Holy Spirit indwells the believer to lead him into the spiritual life of sanctification following the word of God unto glorification. Praise be to God that He justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies those who are stained with sin unto everlasting glory with Him forever and ever.

 

[Dave...]

francisdesales wrote:

Doesn't the Scripture verses that unred typo has given to you show that salvation is a journey, not a one-time declaration?

Why do I have to respond to your scripture, yet you ignore mine? Doesn't this raise a big red flag for you, francisdesales? Remember, this discussion is a two way street.

B. The Passage on Christian Living

Philippians 2:12 is a verse that has confused many people. It says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. " Some have said that means we are partly responsible for saving ourselves. The phrase "work out your own salvation" seems inconsistent with Ephesians 2:9, which says that salvation is "not of works . . . . " Is that a contradiction? Is Paul saying in one place that salvation is not a result of your own effort but in another that we must work it out ourselves? To answer that, let's look at previous verses in Philippians to set the context for verse 12:

1. THE EXHORTATION

Philippians 1:27 says, "Only let your conduct be as it becometh the gospel of Christ, that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs [life-style], that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel. " In other words, "If you're truly saved, let your conduct show it, whether I'm there or not. Let it be so genuine that it doesn't need to be monitored by my presence. "

2. THE EXAMPLE

In Philippians 2:5, Paul says, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. " He goes on to describe in verses 6- 11 how Christ demonstrated the attitude of humility: "[Christ], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal [necessary to retain equality] with God, but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; and, being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore, God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God, the Father. " So, Paul says, "Have the same attitude of submission that Christ had.

3. THE EXPLANATION

Now in that context, I think it's clear that "work out your own salvation" means that since you belong to Christ, having observed His example of humble obedience to God (2:6-8), and having noted the reward of that obedience (vv. 9-11), you should keep on obeying Him (v. 12).

Although the Philippians had demonstrated obedience, it heavily depended on Paul's presence. When he was present, he taught, exhorted, helped, confronted, answered their questions, and unscrambled their dilemmas. But now that he was gone, he wrote them, saying, "Now that I'm not there, don't be less obedient. You've always obeyed in my presence; now keep on obeying in my absence. Let your desire to obey come from within. " The "fear and trembling" that Paul referred to means that it is a serious thing to obey. One should reverently fear God and humbly obey Him.

4. THE EXPRESSION

When you "work out your own salvation," you are living out what has already been worked with in you. Your desire to be pleasing to God, your submission to the Spirit of God, and your obedience to the Word of God, produces an outward manifestation of an internal salvation. This is the Christian life: living on the outside what is already true on the inside. And it is a word of great encouragement when Paul says in verse 13, "For it is God who worketh in you both to will and do of His good pleasure. " We should reflect on the outside what God is doing on the inside.

You say, "I am willing to live the way I ought to. I want to display the salvation that's on the inside. What do I need to do?" The answer to that takes us to Romans 12, where we find the practical duties that make up Christian living. Paul had given his readers a doctrinal base in the first 11 chapters, called them to a total commitment in verses 12:1-2, and encouraged them to use their spiritual gifts in verses 3-8. He describes the practical Christian life that follows those prerequisites from 12:9 to 15:3. In the last chapter we began with . . . "

http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/sg45-94.htm

You yourself have said this with your own "check yourself daily to see whether you are in the faith".

Exactly. Not check yourself to see if you have earned salvation, "check yourself daily to see if you are in the faith", which is exactly what James was warning about. A true initial faith will result in the imputed righteousness of God, which justifies us before God. The result of that will be evidences, such as good works/fruit, perseverance (continue in faith) etc. "You can tell a tree by it's fruit" not 'the fruit makes the tree'

If the evidences are bad, or absent [of good] then your faith was probably never a saving faith to begin with. Therefore you were not imputed with Christ's righteousness, and you were not justified. You didn't lose anything but the illusion that you had a true saving faith. You didn't gain anything but the understanding that somewhere you got it wrong, however you deceived yourself (Faith in Idols etc.).

When if you aren't??? When if you are not checking yourself? Can such a person eventually become lost? While one is not saved by works, one is not saved by faith without these works of love. Works are MORE than just a mere evidence of our faith - it IS our faith in action. Paul told us that nothing else matters but "faith working in love" (Gal 5:6) Because faith is a continuous, ongoing decision towards God, it is not something we do once and never worry about again. This totally destroys the whole concept of perseverance and the Christian moral ethic that Paul and the rest continuously promote.

This is not that complicated.

Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = evidences/good works, obedience, perseverance.

If the good works (evidence) is not there, what does that say about the faith? Is it a saving faith, one by which we received the righteousness of God resulting in our justification before Him? Or a faith that was not a saving faith, that did not impute us with the righteousness of Christ, resulting in us not being justified before God?

Take perseverance (continue in faith-evidence/good work) as an example. If you don't persevere (continue in faith), what happened?

1 John 2:19 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

The evidence shows that the faith was not a saving faith, which would have resulted in the imputed righteousness of God, resulting in our justification before God resulting in our persevering.

Evidence, evidence, evidence of what you already are, in Christ, or not.

 

[Dave...]

Sure. That’s as obvious as saying if you didn’t speak, we couldn’t hear your voice. Works are evidence of our faith. So what? We don’t think works cause our faith, do we? Faith is believing God and because you believe, doing what he says. You can dissect and analyze and dismember the gospel truths until you have mutilated them beyond recognition if you want. Why not simply accept God’s word and follow what he says to do?

Do you mean like this...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

...and the many others just like it that have been ignored by everyone who stands against these simple truths from God's Word posted by me and others on this thread?

You cannot hide the fact that while you complain about my explanation of your few verses you have provided, even though your explanation of the same contradicts not only the direct context, but all the rest of the Bible, you, at the same time will not even attempt to answer any of the scripture that I provided. I know why, do you?

Aha. Now we see why you can’t get your brain into my tiny thoughts. You think God knows specifically who is saved from the foundations of the world. Can you find that quoted anywhere? In plain English, Greek or Hebrew, without merging two separate ideas into one delightful doctrine?

Read the post before this one that I wrote to answer your questions. The people that were being spoken to were already saved.

Here's the scripture that you asked for.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

2 Thess. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Why should we check ourselves daily to see whether we are in the faith if we can never do anything about it? If I ‘examine my fruit’ and find none, am I just supposed to be depressed and distraught and contemplate suicide? Or worse? What? Do you have a bit of good news for those of us who find they are not elect and chosen, then? It appears you have some bad news and some bad news. Your gospel to the non elect must go; “You are not elect and there isn’t a darn thing you can do about it. Sucks to be you.â€Â

How about repenting from putting you faith in your idols and apostate church and try putting your faith in Jesus and trusting in Him? You could do that.

Unread, read your Bible, trust it, it's God's Word. Remember, the truth of His Word is spiritually decerned. Don't assume the worst of God, even when you have questions. Seek and yee shall find...

 

[unred typo]

Dave…. Wrote: Do you mean like this...
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
...and the many others just like it that have been ignored by everyone who stands against these simple truths from God's Word posted by me and others on this thread?

I don’t stand against these simple truths, Dave…. I stand on them. They are foundational to my understanding of the salvation plan of God. If you would look at my previous posts in this forum, you will see that. It is only the grace of God that allows us the privilege to confess, repent, and be forgiven instead of taking his finger and flipping this speck of dust into outer space. How can God justify the guilty? Not by works of righteousness that we have done, because all have sinned and fallen short. We were all condemned so no one can boast that they can demand eternal life because they kept the law. By the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ, he takes our place so that God can be just and still justify us. How does his death count for us? When we confess and forsake our sin, it is removed from our account. When we live according to Jesus’ teaching, we are doing so because of our faith in him. It is by faith that we trust Jesus will forgive us and by confession, repentance and obedience, we can be alive in Christ and he in us. This salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift from God that he was not obligated to offer us at all. Did I miss anything? Open your eyes. It is your interpretation that doesn’t fit with Jesus’ very own words.



Dave…. Wrote: You cannot hide the fact that while you complain about my explanation of your few verses you have provided, even though your explanation of the same contradicts not only the direct context, but all the rest of the Bible, you, at the same time will not even attempt to answer any of the scripture that I provided. I know why, do you?

If you are referring to the 15+ page cut and paste from MacArthur, you’ve got to be kidding. Half of what you posted doesn’t even concern this thread and you didn’t even take the time to put it into your own words and eliminate the off topic portions. If you have specific verses that you can explain how they are pertinent to the topic of works being a stumbling block, I would be happy to review them and give you my comments as well. Otherwise, read the entire Bible in context and you will plainly see how it supports my view. I won’t post it here since you surely must have your own copy and there are rules on the length of posts. This one is too long but I see you have a reading capacity for more than 3 pages.



Dave…. Wrote: Read the post before this one that I wrote to answer your questions. The people that were being spoken to were already saved.
Here's the scripture that you asked for. (a verse that says God knows specifically who is saved from the foundations of the world. )
Dave…. then quoted: Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us predestined us to adoption as sons .
2 Thess. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Eph. 1:4 does NOT say God knows *specifically* who is saved from the foundations of the world. It says he chose that those whosoever are IN HIM, specifically, these will be saved because they live holy lives characterized by love. And he made this determination that whosoever was obedient to Christ would be placed IN HIM and those IN HIM would be saved, and he decided to do it this way from the foundations of the world. Not only will the followers of Christ be placed IN HIM, but they will be predestined to adoption as sons. These unnamed body of believers are whosoever believe and show their faith by their works of obeying the gospel. They are without blame because they confess and forsake their sin, washing their garments in the blood of the lamb.
The NIV makes 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearer: But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. Bible Gateway has this footnote: “Some manuscripts, because God chose you as his first fruits. â€Â
We are saved by the sanctifying work of the Spirit who takes our sins away when we, believing what Jesus taught, confess and forsake them, love one another and forgive as we have been forgiven. IF we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Dave…. wrote: How about repenting from putting you faith in your idols and apostate church and try putting your faith in Jesus and trusting in Him? You could do that.
Unread, read your Bible, trust it, it's God's Word. Remember, the truth of His Word is spiritually decerned. Don't assume the worst of God, even when you have questions. Seek and yee shall find…

Be careful Dave… you don’t own the ‘God dispenser.’ You think you can make all that Jesus said obsolete by waving your free-gospel tract in my face? I passed those out for over twenty years, with as much arrogant zeal as you display here. Writing to these boards is my way of doing penance for my sin of thinking I could boil his message down to a few meaningless man made do-nothing doctrines, God have mercy on me. I did it in willful ignorance and unbelief. I say ‘willful’ because I didn’t want his words to be true, and followed what I wanted to believe instead.

While I do appreciate your concern for my soul, what you preach could never save me. I need to be admonished to do what he commands, not to be lulled into a false sense of security and artificial humility.

Dave, I have earnestly sought the truth and read God’s Word. That’s exactly why I stopped putting my faith in the idols of men and the apostate church who has never had her first love, let alone lost it. The church I belong to now is the body of Christ who is spiritually connected to Jesus as the head who gives orders to every cell and they obey.

Do you think you can call him ‘Lord’ and not do what he says? When he said, “take up your cross daily and follow meâ€Â, do you think he was joking? Do you think it was a temporary gospel to be replaced by the new one that no one even preached in the Bible? Paul said, “Do we then make the law void through faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law.†( Romans 3:31 ) The law of Christ is love for fellowman and obedience to the message of godliness and sacrifice and putting to death our fleshly lusts. This is what he preached for three years and gave to his disciples including Paul, to teach to all the world. There is no other true gospel but there is “another gospel†that has been made up of cunningly devised fables that denies the very Lord who bought them that they claim to believe in.

:o

 

[francisdesales]

My love for you is warning you from the deception that you have bought into from the father of lies. The Roman Catholic Church is teaching false doctrines of devils, denying the justification which is in Christ Jesus' work on the cross apart from man's lies and deception cast upon the laity of the Roman Catholic hierchy. You, my friend, are unable to speak to the truth of what being born again is, and in return reply in ad hominem attacks to sway the direction of the conversation.

You have a strange way of showing your "love" for me by constantly talking about the lies and deception that I am spreading here. As for "ad hominem" attacks, can you point to one? When did I call you a name? That seems to be your mode of operation, if you consider our past discussions. It seems that no one is saved unless they intepret the Bible YOUR way. Even when I tell you that I, too, believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior and have faith in Him, that doesn't appear to be enough. Apparently, there is an additional verse in the "Solo bible" that says that the above is all void IF a person is Catholic. Merely being Catholic apparently is enough to override all the lovely words you claim to believe in regarding justification. Based on YOUR definitions, how can you say I am not saved? Apparently, there is more to salvation then you lead on!

At WORSE, you should be saying Catholics who believe in Christ are saved, and all the other rituals and so forth is a waste of time. You, on the other hand, claim that these beliefs are enough to void and null Christ's Work on the Cross and promise to those who belief in Him...

Praise be to God that He justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies those who are stained with sin unto everlasting glory with Him forever and ever.

Well, you said something I agree with. That's good to know.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The evidence shows that the faith was not a saving faith, which would have resulted in the imputed righteousness of God, resulting in our justification before God resulting in our persevering.

Evidence, evidence, evidence of what you already are, in Christ, or not.

Dave earlier wrote to me...

"You are the legalist. You, who seek to justify yourself before God by your own works, are strongly implying that Christ's blood is insufficient. You are the *self*-righteous that Jesus rebuked and warned against in scripture."

Is this the "evidence" that you are in Christ? Does this mean, thus, that you do not have saving faith?

This is where your theology leads. Unless one is perfect, one can accuse you of not having proper fruit, thus, not having faith. Thus, your "conveyor belt" theology is incorrect - unless you want to make the claim that your continued sins identify you with the unsaved group...

Our disagreement appears to center upon whether justification is a one-time work or whether God continues to justify us after we sin or not. Further discussion should go in that direction. This will better identify the big picture, rather than arguing in the weeds.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Eph. 1:4 does NOT say God knows *specifically* who is saved from the foundations of the world. It says he chose that those whosoever are IN HIM, specifically, these will be saved because they live holy lives characterized by love. And he made this determination that whosoever was obedient to Christ would be placed IN HIM and those IN HIM would be saved, and he decided to do it this way from the foundations of the world. Not only will the followers of Christ be placed IN HIM, but they will be predestined to adoption as sons. These unnamed body of believers are whosoever believe and show their faith by their works of obeying the gospel. They are without blame because they confess and forsake their sin, washing their garments in the blood of the lamb.
The NIV makes 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearer: But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. Bible Gateway has this footnote: “Some manuscripts, because God chose you as his first fruits. â€Â
We are saved by the sanctifying work of the Spirit who takes our sins away when we, believing what Jesus taught, confess and forsake them, love one another and forgive as we have been forgiven. IF we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Unred typo,

I thoroughly enjoyed your post, but especially the above. Your understanding of Eph 1:4 was very instructive - a point I knew in my mind, but didn't make the connection with that particular Scripture. Thanks.

Regards

 

[Dave...]

I don’t stand against these simple truths, Dave…. I stand on them. They are foundational to my understanding of the salvation plan of God. If you would look at my previous posts in this forum, you will see that. It is only the grace of God that allows us the privilege to confess, repent, and be forgiven instead of taking his finger and flipping this speck of dust into outer space. How can God justify the guilty? Not by works of righteousness that we have done, because all have sinned and fallen short. We were all condemned so no one can boast that they can demand eternal life because they kept the law. By the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ, he takes our place so that God can be just and still justify us. How does his death count for us? When we confess and forsake our sin, it is removed from our account. When we live according to Jesus’ teaching, we are doing so because of our faith in him. It is by faith that we trust Jesus will forgive us and by confession, repentance and obedience, we can be alive in Christ and he in us. This salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift from God that he was not obligated to offer us at all. Did I miss anything? Open your eyes. It is your interpretation that doesn’t fit with Jesus’ very own words.

My eyes are wide open and taking into account all of God's Word. Will you do the same?

I actually agree with everything that you wrote in the above quote, but i'm wondering about your thoughts on our justification happens. Because if you make it dependant on your works, then we are not speaking of the same Gospel.

Justification is not a process, but a one time act.

If you are referring to the 15+ page cut and paste from MacArthur, you’ve got to be kidding. Half of what you posted doesn’t even concern this thread and you didn’t even take the time to put it into your own words and eliminate the off topic portions. If you have specific verses that you can explain how they are pertinent to the topic of works being a stumbling block, I would be happy to review them and give you my comments as well. Otherwise, read the entire Bible in context and you will plainly see how it supports my view. I won’t post it here since you surely must have your own copy and there are rules on the length of posts. This one is too long but I see you have a reading capacity for more than 3 pages.

Start with the first post of this thread. Please, lets not write ten pages about how long it would take to respond. Use that time to respond to the scripture.

Eph. 1:4 does NOT say God knows *specifically* who is saved from the foundations of the world. It says he chose that those whosoever are IN HIM,

Talk about reading into a verse. Remember, just read as it is written was your advice. Can you show me where "that whosover" comes from, because you would have to admit that adding that changes the meaning alot.

specifically, these will be saved because they live holy lives characterized by love. And he made this determination that whosoever was obedient to Christ would be placed IN HIM and those IN HIM would be saved, and he decided to do it this way from the foundations of the world.

You just cannot get around inserting your works in there, can you? But there is a major problem with your reasoning in a few places, first there is nothing about works in those passages. "He chose" according to what?

I'm out of time

 

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote: “My eyes are wide open and taking into account all of God's Word. Will you do the same?
I actually agree with everything that you wrote in the above quote, but i'm wondering about your thoughts on our justification happens. Because if you make it dependant on your works, then we are not speaking of the same Gospel. Justification is not a process, but a one time act. â€Â

If I didn’t take into account all of God’s word, I would be preaching another gospel, a false gospel that sounds too good to be true because it isn’t true. You confuse the one time act of Christ’s death on the cross as our sacrifice with the daily walk in his way of salvation. The one way to be saved is by following Christ. The way to follow Christ is by obeying what he taught us to do in our lives in order to be saved. Do your eyes see what the gospels have recorded of his message? Do your ears hear?



Dave… wrote: “Start with the first post of this thread. Please, lets not write ten pages about how long it would take to respond. Use that time to respond to the scripture.â€Â

I have written a ten page rebuttal to MacArthur’s errors in the past but I wouldn’t be so rude as to post it here and expect any reply. This is a discussion board and even a 3 page hand typed response is pushing it. If people want to read MacArthur, they can go read it all at his site.



Dave… wrote: “Talk about reading into a verse. Remember, just read as it is written was your advice. Can you show me where "that whosover" comes from, because you would have to admit that adding that changes the meaning alot. â€Â

I’m glad you realize the effects of changing such a small detail can have serious results. This is where you have to read the entire book in context, Dave… Ephesians begins by addressing those same ‘whosoevers’. Paul writes to them as the “Saints,†specifically those at Ephesus, not by individual name but by the qualifying mark of faithfulness to Christ. He writes to ‘the faithful IN Christ Jesus.’

Example: If you address an OP to ‘Trinitarians Only’, do you have to know who they are in order to direct your post to them and no one else? Your OP would be to ‘whosoever is a Trinitarian’ for as long as this forum exists to people in the future who may not be Trinitarians now or even born yet.

With that thought in mind, read Ephesians 1 again. Paul is talking to whosoever fits his description of the “faithful in Christ Jesusâ€Â. This unnamed group are the “us†and “we†in verses 4 and 5 and throughout the entire letter. They are anonymous people characterized by works of faith in the message of our Lord Jesus Christ. Do you know what that message is? His sermons are written in red. Can’t miss em. Unless you try.



Dave… wrote: “You just cannot get around inserting your works in there, can you? But there is a major problem with your reasoning in a few places, first there is nothing about works in those passages. "He chose" according to what?
I'm out of timeâ€Â


According to whether we are “in him†or not. To you this means saying the ‘sinner’s prayer’ and ‘personally accepting what Christ did for you on the cross.’ To me it means “being rooted and grounded in loveâ€Â, (verse 17 of chapter 3.) which involve acts of love and obedience to the gospel Jesus taught. It is spelled out in Ephesians 4:20 through 6:18. Obedience to Christ as Lord (because you believe in his future kingdom) and confession of sin, (while expecting God will mercifully forgive as you have forgiven others) are works of faith, not works of the law. Jesus said if your works aren’t in him, neither are you.

Putting your works into this equation is just putting your money where your mouth is, Dave... Jesus tells us to lay up treasure in heaven where mold, rust and moth can’t corrupt it and trust in him to keep it for you until you finish the work he gives us to do. How many are willing to give up their comfortable lives in service and sacrifice for others, believing what Jesus said about rewards in heaven and loving your neighbor? That’s really laying it on the line, isn’t it. It’s more convenient to trust in preachers who tell you that you can have your cake and eat it to.

Forgive all the quaint old expressions but truth is timeless. I see you ran out of it. ;-)

 

[Dave...]

If I didn’t take into account all of God’s word, I would be preaching another gospel, a false gospel that sounds too good to be true because it isn’t true. You confuse the one time act of Christ’s death on the cross as our sacrifice with the daily walk in his way of salvation. The one way to be saved is by following Christ. The way to follow Christ is by obeying what he taught us to do in our lives in order to be saved. Do your eyes see what the gospels have recorded of his message? Do your ears hear?

Then take this into account, oh one who can hear.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

You cannot be justified before God through both grace and the law. Once you apply one towards your justification, you nullify the other. In other words, you cannot trust in both...

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

To trust in your works as a whole or in part for salvation is to reject Jesus Christ in faith. Trust in your works and...

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.â€Â

Jesus explained in simpler terms...

Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.(good luck, but wait, you have already failed this test.)

How do you stack up so far? Oh, by the way, not only do you need to be perfectly righteous, but you must also be sinless. How are you doing with that? Keep in mind that if you, at this present time are not perfect in both establishing your perfect righteousness and also living in perfect sinlessness, you have already failed....if there were only a way to overcome this.....

I have written a ten page rebuttal to MacArthur’s errors in the past but I wouldn’t be so rude as to post it here and expect any reply. This is a discussion board and even a 3 page hand typed response is pushing it. If people want to read MacArthur, they can go read it all at his site.

I wrote the first post, not Macarthur.

I’m glad you realize the effects of changing such a small detail can have serious results. This is where you have to read the entire book in context, Dave...With that thought in mind, read Ephesians 1 again.

I'm not playing this game with you. You added "who soever" which directly contradicts "He Chose us" "according to His will", and if you remember, your question was not even 'who caused salvation', it was 'did God know from the foundations of the world'. "Eph. 1:4 does NOT say God knows *specifically* who is saved from the foundations of the world." Please stop playing these games. If you cannot be honest with yourself, then i'm waisting my time.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us predestined us to adoption as sons .

2 Thess. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

According to whether we are “in him†or not.

In Him means in Christ, i.e. saved. He chose us, elected us unto salvation.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

But even still, your question was whether or not God knew we would be saved from the foundations of the world. If you want to discuss election or who caused our belief, start another thread.

You think you can make all that Jesus said obsolete by waving your free-gospel tract in my face? I passed those out for over twenty years, with as much arrogant zeal as you display here. Writing to these boards is my way of doing penance for my sin of thinking I could boil his message down to a few meaningless man made do-nothing doctrines, God have mercy on me. I did it in willful ignorance and unbelief. I say ‘willful’ because I didn’t want his words to be true, and followed what I wanted to believe instead.

Bingo......You are now under the law....rejecting the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:3-4) Why is it so hard for you to see that you are double minded. You glory in the blood of Christ and disparage it at the same time. This is now your requirement for justification before God...

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

You cannot justify yourself before God by the works of the Law.

Galatians 4:21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The problem is not what you do, it's the 'why you do it'. We are in agreement with the "what we should do", just not the "why we should do it".

Is not of works.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Is not of faith and works united.

Acts 15:1-29 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. ...

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 2:14-21 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. ...

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Dave, I have earnestly sought the truth and read God’s Word.

Keep seeking, because you are stopping short in your understanding to allow Catholic doctrines to be inserted thereby making what you believe another Gospel.

Do you think you can call him ‘Lord’ and not do what he says? When he said, “take up your cross daily and follow meâ€Â, do you think he was joking? Do you think it was a temporary gospel to be replaced by the new one that no one even preached in the Bible?

I agree with everything that Jesus taught. The problem is you stopped short in your understanding to protect man made doctrines. Think about it, how can I agree with even the scripture that I just quoted from you, and still believe what I believe. It all fits, perfectly.

I'll tell you what, try, "honestly", just to understand what i'm saying. Try to understand what God's Word is saying with the scripture that I posted. Try to understand how it all fits together.

“Do we then make the law void through faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law.†( Romans 3:31 )

Not because of your work, because of Jesus' work/perfect righteousness. If there was no law, Jesus never would have needed to die on the cross in our place. The fact that He did, establishes the law.

The law sends us to Jesus Christ for justification because we cannot justify ourselves, being justified in christ by His imputed righteousness, we are pointed back to the law to know our duty as Christians. This is not earning salvation, it is post justification.

But you are speaking of us establishing our own righteousness before God to be justified before Him. Read the emphesized part of this next passage carefully.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law **for righteousness** to everyone who believes.

 

[Dave...]

URTO, if my posts have an edge to them, it's because i'm trying to drive a point home. I hope you don't take it personally.

God's Righteousness, which is what saves us, is imputed the moment we believe. We know this happened if the righteousness of God begins to manifest itself in our lives in good works/fruit. This leaves the works/fruit as an evidence of a true faith that has already resulted in the imputed righteousness of God, not the cause of it.

You have replaced God's righteousness, that which does save, with your works. Your works are a manifestation of God's righteousness working in you. an evidence.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

We are saved by the "righteousness of God", nothing else. If you have sinned one time while being under the law, you are destined for hell unless you have the imputed "righteousness of God".

The only way to have the "righteousness of God' imputed is by faith Alone. The works are a result of being in Christ, not the cause of it. Once one makes works the cause he has "not submitted to the righteousness of God" and has given evidence that he is under the law.

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Philippians 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vainâ€â€if indeed it was in vain?5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.†9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 10:9 If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

If we sin once, we are guilty of all. We cannot be made righteous before God by our own merits because we have already failed and all the good deads in the world will not remove the penalty of death that results from being found guilty from that one sin. If we sin once, we are found guilty of all and are hell bound, unless, we, through faith, are imputed with the righteousness of God. If we have sinned once, then by God's law, we are guilty and no good works can overcome this.

Our works are an evidence, always. It is only faith that can save us, because it is only by faith that we can receive the imputed righteousness of God. If we have sinned once we are guilty of all.

James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

God, by His mercy, He provided a way, an Advocate.

1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath ***once*** suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God."

1 Peter 2:24 "Who [Jesus] his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness."

Jesus suffered God's wrath that was due to us. He went to the cross sinless, the only substitute that was acceptable to God, the perfect Lamb of God.

Paul tells us...

Romans 3:28,31 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law...Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

What Paul is saying is that God's justice, His law, required payment for our sin, and the law is not made void, but established because Jesus died for us. If their was no law, Jesus would not have needed to die for us.

Faith results in us receiving the righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is Jesus' imputed righteousness.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

But the law does not go away for those NOT in Christ, they will be judged by the Law. We are "in Christ", so we are not under the Law, but grace.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Those who think that they can overcome God's wrath by any means other than the righteousness of God alone, which is through faith alone, are giving evidence that they are still under the law.

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us."

Galatians 2:16 "By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Only the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD can save you.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just[ified] shall live by faith." See Hebrews 11

Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Again, if you trust in your works you will hear "Depart from Me, I never knew you", because...

Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

This is our righteousness absent of the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

From the same book, speaking of the righteousness of God which justifies.

Isaiah 54:17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me,†Says the LORD.

Isaiah 61:10 10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 5:1 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

You have left out the most important thing, the reason why Jesus died on the cross. If they did these things to earn salvation, then they have rejected the righteousness of God. If they did these things as a result of faith, then they are under Grace and have given evidence that their faith is not dead and they are saved. Faith comes first, and it is of faith that we receive the righteousness of God.

Righteousness Imputed
http://www.bible-topics.com/Righteousness-Imputed.html

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

When you put it all together...

Grace = Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = good works/fruit.

That's the only way it all fit's together. It fits together perfectly, as the truth should.

Peace.

 

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote: When you put it all together...
Grace = Faith = imputed righteousness = justification = good works/fruit.
That's the only way it all fit's together. It fits together perfectly, as the truth should.

That’s very well devised and you have honed down the gospel to fit into your equation like a pro. I even mistook your writing for MacArthur’s. You could hone it down more if you didn’t quote Romans 10:3 seven times (actual count, no exaggeration) and Romans 11:6 three times in your 2 post 13 page déjà vu wonder. Since 10:3 seems to be your favorite, let’s deal with it first. I like the one with the stars in it:

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law **for righteousness** to everyone who believes.

This verse is about the nation of Israel. They stumbled at the law. Jesus said the law could be honed down to 2 commands, love the Lord your God and love one another. What were the Pharisees saying would make you righteous before God? 'Following strict laws about diet, holy days, ceremonial rites, sacrificial offerings and rituals.' They outwardly followed the letter of the law but not the spirit of it. Jesus often called them on it. Luke 18:9 : And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others… They despised others. Is that love for one another? No, it’s hypocrisy. Jesus pointed that out many times, calling them vipers, murderers, blind, fools, children of hell/Satan/the devil and wicked like their father.

Luke 20:47 describes them as those “which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a show make long prayers.

Matthew 23:28
Even so you also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

They tried to establish their own righteousness, (strict ordinances about diet and ceremony,) but had not submitted to the righteousness of God, which waslove for one another and faith and obedience to God. Jesus explained to us in his sermons how love was the end of the law for righteousness, because love is the fulfilling of the law. If you love one another, you will not be stealing, coveting, murdering, cheating, lying to (or about) or harming your neighbor in any way. What if we neglect to love one another and commit some sin against our neighbor? We admit it (confess), repent (stop doing it/resolve to not do it again and do what we can to repay/right it), and the blood of Jesus will cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
There’s actually nothing wrong with your formula for salvation if you understand what the words mean:
Grace= God making a way for us to follow in order to be saved when he didn’t have to do anything for us at all but punish us for our sin.

Faith = Believing what God told us to do in order to be saved.

imputed righteousness = the righteousness of Christ given to us when we forsake and confess our sin.

justification = what we receive because we obey, confess and repent of our sins

good works= what we do in obedience to Christ

fruit= what we produce naturally by our union with the Spirit and the Word

Dave wrote: This is not earning salvation, it is post justification.

When we obey, it is not earning salvation, it is just doing what is our duty to do. We could never ‘undo’ our sin or the punishment required by it except for the gift of the redeeming blood of Christ.

Here’s a couple new verses you could replace those overused, redundant, repetitious ones with: :wink:

Malachi 3:18
Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serves God and him that serves him not.

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.

Matthew 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

 

[Dave...]

That’s very well devised and you have honed down the gospel to fit into your equation like a pro. I even mistook your writing for MacArthur’s. You could hone it down more if you didn’t quote Romans 10:3 seven times (actual count, no exaggeration) and Romans 11:6 three times in your 2 post 13 page déjà vu wonder. Since 10:3 seems to be your favorite, let’s deal with it first. I like the one with the stars in it:

We need to start somewhere. I write it like that so that even a child can understand.

This verse is about the nation of Israel. They stumbled at the law. Jesus said the law could be honed down to 2 commands, love the Lord your God and love one another. What were the Pharisees saying would make you righteous before God? 'Following strict laws about diet, holy days, ceremonial rites, sacrificial offerings and rituals.' They outwardly followed the letter of the law but not the spirit of it. Jesus often called them on it. Luke 18:9 : And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others… They despised others. Is that love for one another? No, it’s hypocrisy. Jesus pointed that out many times, calling them vipers, murderers, blind, fools, children of hell/Satan/the devil and wicked like their father.

Are not you saying the same thing? That you need to obey God's commands to earn salvation?

Romans 10:3-4 applies to "everyone". You said "Writing to these boards is my way of doing penance for my sin". You are doing it for yourself, then, no? But Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 13 that love is selfless, and anything that you do without love is worthless. So, in effect, this nullifies your works. Jesus is the end of the law *for righteousness* to those who believe.

Luke 20:47 describes them as those “which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts; Which devour widows' houses, and for a show make long prayers.

These are manifestations of their own hearts. But it does not need to be manifested in such extremes to show the same wicked heart as the Pharisees had. Jesus also said that many will come to Him on that day and "Lord, Lord, did we not....I tell you the truth, I never knew you."

They tried to establish their own righteousness, (strict ordinances about diet and ceremony,) but had not submitted to the righteousness of God, which waslove for one another and faith and obedience to God.

The righteousness of God is the righteousness of God. It's His righteousness, period. It's not a secret code word for anything. Anyone who tries to justify themselves before God by any other means than Jesus Christ (His imputed righteousness) are then trying to establish their own righteousness. If you do not trust completely in Jesus and His pefect righteousness and sinlessness, you are then under the law which requires perfect obedience.

Jesus explained to us in his sermons how love was the end of the law for righteousness,

Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness.

because love is the fulfilling of the law.

What is our duty after we are justified in Christ? Keep in mind that Jesus summed up the law in those two commands. The law was not deleted, it only summed it up.

Faith = Believing what God told us to do in order to be saved.

Romans 10:9 If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED.

imputed righteousness = the righteousness of Christ given to us when we forsake and confess our sin.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

justification = what we receive because we obey, confess and repent of our sins

Galatians 2:16 "By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Philippians 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath ***once*** suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God."

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[francisdesales]

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Rom 10:9

Dave,

Note that this verse says thou SHALL BE SAVED, not THOU ARE SAVED! BIG BIG difference. Paul is PRESUMING that the Christian who professes one's faith in Christ will not be so foolish as to return to one's past life - although there are a number of verses that note that some Christians do EXACTLY that...

I think you are having a difficult time seeing that God and man cooperate. Thus, you see righteousness as EITHER from God OR from man. It doesn't occur to you that God MAKES man righteous. IF Adam's sin wounded our inner selves - which all Protestantism agrees with, why do you stop short by denying that Christ's work CURES OUR INNER SELVES? Why this need for "imputed righteousness"? God went all the way, brother...

Regards