Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some.

[Dave...]

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Rom 10:9

Were are the works?

I think you are having a difficult time seeing that God and man cooperate.

They do cooperate, I never said that they didn't, but lets be more specific. You are speaking of justification. What will you offer to God to cooperate with your justification. Remember, you cannot have grace and works. One or the other..

1 Corinthians 4:7

Thus, you see righteousness as EITHER from God OR from man.

A righteousness that justifies you before God is only from God.

It doesn't occur to you that God MAKES man righteous.

By His righteousness.

IF Adam's sin wounded our inner selves - which all Protestantism agrees with, why do you stop short by denying that Christ's work CURES OUR INNER SELVES?

How do you propose that He cured it?

Why this need for "imputed righteousness"? God went all the way, brother...

But we didn't, that's why you need His righteousness. You can only receive by faith alone. The result of that will be the manifestation of His righteousness in our lives. This is an evidence, not the cause of justification.

I would still like to know how you can be obedient in love while at the same time "self-seeking". That's not love, but the same thing that the Pharisees were doing.

Your works of love to earn something are absent of love as a result of you trying to earn something by them.

 

[francisdesales]

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Rom 10:9

Were are the works?

They come later when we are in Christ.

You are speaking of justification. What will you offer to God to cooperate with your justification. Remember, you cannot have grace and works. One or the other..

As I said long before, you are forgetting that justification is a process, not a one-time event. Abraham was said to be justified during three separate occasions in his life - at least according to the New Testament (Romans, Hebrews, and James). Also, the bible uses the word justification and sanctification interchangeably. Thus, my cooperation IS important - when I define justification as synonymous with sanctification. If I use YOUR definition, then I agree, the faith infused within me by God is what initially justifies - although this faith also depends on our reception of it, so even here, man is not totally passive.

A righteousness that justifies you before God is only from God.

Of course it is only "FROM" God - but WE are MADE righteous, as well, not simply "declared" righteous. The bible is FULL of people who are righteous - and MADE SO BY GOD! Christ Himself said OUR righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees to enter the Kingdom. (Mat 5:20)

How do you propose that He cured it (original sin)?

Through His Redemptive Work, beginning with the Incarnation and continuing even to this very day through the Church.

But we didn't, that's why you need His righteousness. You can only receive by faith alone. The result of that will be the manifestation of His righteousness in our lives. This is an evidence, not the cause of justification.

Again, you are stuck in the "justification is a one-time event" error. God doesn't ONLY declare us righteous... He MAKES us righteous. What God says, He carries through. Thus, when He CALLS us righteous, He has MADE us righteous. We are justified, and we know this by our actions. This process continues throughout our lives. For example:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" Romans 1:16-18

or, a bit later:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" Romans 2:12-15

In both cases, justification is not a one-time event. Above, being justified is dependent upon our obedience to the Law, DOING the Law of Love - which naturally is an ability given us by the Spirit of God, who writes the Law upon the hearts of even the Gentiles. But merely HEARING the Law is pointless - just as James tells us.

I would still like to know how you can be obedient in love while at the same time "self-seeking".

Who says that we are to be "self-seeking"? The Bible says we are to DIE TO SELF!

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Phil 2:5-8

Regards

 

[unred typo]

Dave… We need to start somewhere. I write it like that so that even a child can understand.

A child is entertained by reiteration but I find it monotonous. I repeat myself often but I try not to do it in the same post. Quoting the same verse 7 times in one split post is getting to be vain repetition. Maybe I do need to work on my mantra skills, though.:wink:



Dave… Are not you saying the same thing? That you need to obey God's commands to earn salvation?

For the umpthteen time, I am not saying that by obeying God’s commands you will be earning salvation. By obeying Christ’s commands, you will be following Christ. If you’re not following Christ, you are not his. Do you want to be his or Satan’s? Are you a sheep or a goat?

The problem of the Pharisees’ theology wasn’t the teaching of the law for salvation. It was their emphasis on ceremony without meaning. They majored in the minors and taught that the rituals themselves were the way to be saved and neglected to teach the real spirit of the law which was love. For instance, they taught such a strict observance of the Sabbath, that instead of a day of R&R, (rest and reflection) it was a burdensome hindrance on the people.

Their biggest problem was the fact they were using their position to gain wealth and prestige, and praise and glory, pretending to be holy while they were anything but. They were a den of vicious and calculating murderers, liars, and thieves, according to Jesus who saw their secret evil deeds. They were not a bunch of do-gooders, bragging about their works. They were workers of iniquity. They killed innocent people. They robbed the poor orphans and widows of their homes. Why do you think Jesus called them vipers?


Dave… wrote: Romans 10:3-4 applies to "everyone". You said "Writing to these boards is my way of doing penance for my sin". You are doing it for yourself, then, no? But Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 13 that love is selfless, and anything that you do without love is worthless. So, in effect, this nullifies your works. Jesus is the end of the law *for righteousness* to those who believe.

I said, “Writing to these boards is my way of doing penance for my sin of thinking I could boil his message down to a few meaningless man made do-nothing doctrines,†referring to a time past when I spouted the same message you spout here. I am doing it for myself, to ease my conscience, sure, but because I also want to undo some of the grief I must have caused my Savior by perverting the gospel of Christ. I don’t want a reward nor do I consider it worthy of any. I don’t suppose it makes me righteous and I know that only the blood can take away my sin, even the sin of preaching errors. It matters little what you think of me or my motives.
If I can help one person find their way to God, it will be worth any effort.


Dave… wrote: These are manifestations of their own hearts. But it does not need to be manifested in such extremes to show the same wicked heart as the Pharisees had. Jesus also said that many will come to Him on that day and "Lord, Lord, did we not....I tell you the truth, I never knew you."

Their ‘works’ were superficial religious prophesy preaching, casting out of real or imagined demons, and many “wondrous†works that didn’t include even the smallest of kindnesses, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick or imprisoned. At least recognize this fact: God is love, and if you have no love for one another, you do not have God.



Dave… wrote: The righteousness of God is the righteousness of God. It's His righteousness, period. It's not a secret code word for anything. Anyone who tries to justify themselves before God by any other means than Jesus Christ (His imputed righteousness) are then trying to establish their own righteousness. If you do not trust completely in Jesus and His pefect righteousness and sinlessness, you are then under the law which requires perfect obedience.

The righteousness of God is the righteousness that Jesus preached in his sermons to the people who sat around him in the hillsides of Israel. The righteousness of God, that he demands of us, is the perfect Royal Law of Love for one another kept by Christ’s followers in faith and obedience to him. When we walk in the light of his words, repenting of our sin, loving and forgiving as we have been forgiven, the blood cleanses us to perfection. Here’s a new one for you, Dave… Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.



Repeating the same list of verses doesn’t prove anything, Dave. If I give an exegesis of all those, you probably wouldn’t even read it and merely repost them in reply. I’ll just pick one you at least put your stars on. We love those, don’t we?

Dave… quoted: 1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath ***once*** suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God."

Where are you going with this? Do you think I believe Jesus has to die ***every time*** you sin after you ‘believed’? The blood is sufficient for all sins confessed and repented of. Period. Are you suggesting that you can confess a sin you’re going to commit next week? That’s rather premeditated, isn’t it? Does that go; “Lord, please forgive my lying to my wife next week about kicking her dog. Forgive me for all the times I’m going to be cheating on her in the future and the lies I will have to tell her to keep her from finding ou¢â‚¬Â¦.†Or is it: “Lord, Please put me on your auto-cleanse program where I can be forgiven without confessing, repenting or trying to live according to your will. In Jesus precious name and for his glory, Amen.†Or what??? I can’t imagine…. :-? :roll:

 

[Dave...]

For the umpthteen time, I am not saying that by obeying God’s commands you will be earning salvation. By obeying Christ’s commands, you will be following Christ. If you’re not following Christ, you are not his. Do you want to be his or Satan’s? Are you a sheep or a goat?

Then we agree. We cannot make ourselves righteous before God by any works that we do because God requires perfect righteousness.

You're basically saying the same thing that i've been saying, that works are an evidence. In other words, the [good] works are not the cause of justification, but the result of justification. So we can rightly say that a good tree (saved) produces good fruit, and a bad tree 9unsaved) produces bad fruit. In that context, if you are not obeying Christ's commands and are thereby not following Christ we can rightly say that you are not saved. Not because you didn't earn anything, but because bad fruit is from a bad tree. Their fruit, or manifestation, reveals whether or not their claims of being in Christ were true.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made *manifest*, that none of them were of us.

So how can we be made righteous before God who requires perfect righteousness? By His righteousness, the righteousness of God that is credited to us by faith. I won't post the scripture again, but I will refer you back to all the scripture that speaks of the righteousness of God

The problem of the Pharisees’ theology wasn’t the teaching of the law for salvation. It was their emphasis on ceremony without meaning. They majored in the minors and taught that the rituals themselves were the way to be saved and neglected to teach the real spirit of the law which was love. For instance, they taught such a strict observance of the Sabbath, that instead of a day of R&R, (rest and reflection) it was a burdensome hindrance on the people.

Their biggest problem was the fact they were using their position to gain wealth and prestige, and praise and glory, pretending to be holy while they were anything but. They were a den of vicious and calculating murderers, liars, and thieves, according to Jesus who saw their secret evil deeds. They were not a bunch of do-gooders, bragging about their works. They were workers of iniquity. They killed innocent people. They robbed the poor orphans and widows of their homes. Why do you think Jesus called them vipers?

But they thought that they were righteous before God and justified as a result. But we know by God's Word that nobody is every justified before God by the law, only in faith in Jesus. I think your understanding is correct, but short sighted. You are only seeing half the picture. The rebukes and teaching of Jesus towards these same Pharisees went beyond what you are recognizing.

I'm out of time.

francisdesales, I believe that my discussion with you is pointless. I gave you the truth and the scripture to back it up. Do what you like with it.

 

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote: Then we agree. We cannot make ourselves righteous before God by any works that we do because God requires perfect righteousness.

We agree on this. Except you’re still missing the forest for the trees though and a miss is as good as a mile. Against my better judgment, I’m going to try an analogy.

If you tell your 4 year old you will give her a pony for her next birthday if she saves $30 over the year. She has only saved $12 after a year of trying, so you give her $18 for sweeping out the garage and a few other chores. Did she earn the pony by her works? No. Was it necessary for her to do the chores to get the pony? Yes. Was the $30 required? Yes. Was the $18 a gift? Yes. Was the pony a gift? Yes. Can she brag that she earned the pony by her works? No.

When you understand how this can be true and how a gift given in mercy by the grace of the giver can still require works, you and I will have an agreement. When you try to fit it into your outline below, it won’t go.


Dave… wrote: You're basically saying the same thing that i've been saying, that works are an evidence. In other words, the [good] works are not the cause of justification, but the result of justification. So we can rightly say that a good tree (saved) produces good fruit, and a bad tree 9unsaved) produces bad fruit. In that context, if you are not obeying Christ's commands and are thereby not following Christ we can rightly say that you are not saved. Not because you didn't earn anything, but because bad fruit is from a bad tree. Their fruit, or manifestation, reveals whether or not their claims of being in Christ were true.

Works are an evidence of what you believe, not a result of being justified. Without them, you are not justified, and you are not producing any fruit and you are not being saved. I don’t know how to explain this to you any clearer. You are hung up on faith and works, trying to separate them so you only have one following the other, when they are two sides of the same coin. Only God himself by the Spirit can reveal this to you and only when you are willing to believe that what Jesus taught is the one and only true gospel that you are supposed to obey to be saved and it is a day by day life in Christ. The grace of God makes your works acceptable and perfect when you follow Christ and do what he commands.




Dave… wrote: So how can we be made righteous before God who requires perfect righteousness? By His righteousness, the righteousness of God that is credited to us by faith. I won't post the scripture again, but I will refer you back to all the scripture that speaks of the righteousness of God

Thank you. I think I have it memorized actually. God has a perfect righteousness that describes what he is like. Jesus preached how we could live righteously according to God, not according to the sanctimonious beliefs of the religious leaders he exposed as hypocrites. This righteousness that Jesus taught is a simple life of faith, humility, love, and mercy. Repentance of sins will make it perfectly righteous as the blood takes away the imperfections.



Dave… wrote: But they (Pharisees) thought that they were righteous before God and justified as a result. But we know by God's Word that nobody is every justified before God by the law, only in faith in Jesus. I think your understanding is correct, but short sighted. You are only seeing half the picture. The rebukes and teaching of Jesus towards these same Pharisees went beyond what you are recognizing.

Yes, I may have neglected to mention that their theology was based on believing in rituals to save them rather than living in obedience to God or Christ in love for one another. When we think of the Law, we only think of the ten commandments but for the Pharisees it was dozens, maybe even hundreds, of ordinances that had to be kept, from what animals were clean, to what grains could be planted together. Jesus said they tithed even the tiniest herbs but neglected to keep the weightier laws of love and mercy. This nit picking was of no value to prepare hearts for the kingdom of God or to save souls.

Maybe this time when you read the words, they will expand your thoughts so the meaning has more significance than what you have found in them before.



Dave... wrote: I'm out of time.

It's never too late as long as you're still breathing. Today is the first day of the rest of your life you know. :wink:

 

[Dave...]

If you tell your 4 year old you will give her a pony for her next birthday if she saves $30 over the year. She has only saved $12 after a year of trying, so you give her $18 for sweeping out the garage and a few other chores. Did she earn the pony by her works? No. Was it necessary for her to do the chores to get the pony? Yes. Was the $30 required? Yes. Was the $18 a gift? Yes. Was the pony a gift? Yes. Can she brag that she earned the pony by her works? No.

If I were to give here a pony she would not need to save the money.

Did Jesus atone for your sins or not. It's that simple. ;-)

Works are an evidence of what you believe, not a result of being justified. Without them, you are not justified, and you are not producing any fruit and you are not being saved. I don’t know how to explain this to you any clearer. You are hung up on faith and works, trying to separate them so you only have one following the other, when they are two sides of the same coin. Only God himself by the Spirit can reveal this to you and only when you are willing to believe that what Jesus taught is the one and only true gospel that you are supposed to obey to be saved and it is a day by day life in Christ. The grace of God makes your works acceptable and perfect when you follow Christ and do what he commands.

Understanding your side of the coin perfectly is notr a problem, sinse it has common ground with every false religion in the world. If you would only hear what God's Word clearly says. You, by trying to establish your own righteousness before God, have rejected Him.

Thank you. I think I have it memorized actually. God has a perfect righteousness that describes what he is like. Jesus preached how we could live righteously according to God, not according to the sanctimonious beliefs of the religious leaders he exposed as hypocrites. This righteousness that Jesus taught is a simple life of faith, humility, love, and mercy. Repentance of sins will make it perfectly righteous as the blood takes away the imperfections.

But you are not doing it in love because love is selfless. You are doing it to earn your salvation, which makes it selfish. Which is exactly what the Phisees were doing. Trying to earn salvation by the law, just as you are.

God not only has perfect righteousness, He also is perfectly just. If you have sinned one time you deserve hellfire for eternity by His perfect standard that demands perfect righteousness. If you sinned one time, you are guilty of all. How will you overcome this with your works?

The only way to be just before God is by His righteousness. This is not earned by works, but received by faith.

 

[unred typo]

Dave wrote: If I were to give here a pony she would not need to save the money.
Did Jesus atone for your sins or not. It's that simple. :wink:

Except the Lord did not give us a pony to ride, he gave us cross to bear. You missed the object of the parable, as predicted. I only wanted to show how a gift can be offered conditionally by works (by the law) and still count as a gift of mercy and not of works (by the sacrifice of Christ). But all you want to do is go back to your gimme gimme, no strings religion, and you can‘t even imagine how grace, works and faith are bonded together into the gospel that Jesus really did preach. See how the tempter has made even the amazing gift of God’s own Son to pale in comparison to his ‘no pain, all gain’ offer.
The only trouble is, there is no pony, Dave…There is free payment for your sins IF you repent and confess them day by day. The more you follow Christ, the less often you will have to do that terrible chore. If you can’t be responsible to do that, how are you going to take care of a pony?



Dave wrote: Understanding your side of the coin perfectly is notr a problem, sinse it has common ground with every false religion in the world. If you would only hear what God's Word clearly says. You, by trying to establish your own righteousness before God, have rejected Him.

It is the word of God I’m listening to, Dave… Following the only way Jesus taught to inherit eternal life. Through his way, I am perfect in his righteousness and the blood is the difference between false religions and the true gospel.



Dave wrote: But you are not doing it in love because love is selfless. You are doing it to earn your salvation, which makes it selfish. Which is exactly what the Phisees were doing. Trying to earn salvation by the law, just as you are.

The Pharisees were trying to make up their own set of rules that had nothing to do with love, mercy, humility, and forgiveness. Their lives were full of injustice, greed, pride and murderous acts of cruelty. Everything they did was for show, to be seen as righteous by men. They reduced the Law of God to a set of rituals and rules. What does that have to do with obeying Christ? Is that love one another? Is that repenting of sins and wanting to please God? If you can’t see the difference, I pity you.

I love God because he is an awesome, incredible, loving creator who has proven his love for me. I obey God because I love him but also because I believe what he said to do in order to be saved. I do not presumptuously assume that he will not punish me because he is merciful and good or because I claim to be his child. For the umphteen and one time, whatever I do for God can not earn my salvation. I have already messed up perfect righteousness, and I cannot undo my sin without the gift of the blood of Christ.



Dave wrote: God not only has perfect righteousness, He also is perfectly just. If you have sinned one time you deserve hellfire for eternity by His perfect standard that demands perfect righteousness. If you sinned one time, you are guilty of all. How will you overcome this with your works?

Not by my works, but by repenting of my sin, confessing my sin and resolving to obey him and follow him as he taught. If we walk in the light as he is in the light, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanses us of all unrighteousness. Don’t you believe that, Dave…?


Dave wrote: The only way to be just before God is by His righteousness. This is not earned by works, but received by faith.

This is where we agree, Dave… :-D For the umpteen-second time, whatever I do for God can not earn my salvation. I have already messed up perfect righteousness, and I cannot undo my sin without the gift of the blood of Christ.

 

[Dave...]

unred typo wrote:

Dave wrote: The only way to be just before God is by His righteousness. This is not earned by works, but received by faith.

This is where we agree, Dave… For the umpteen-second time, whatever I do for God can not earn my salvation. I have already messed up perfect righteousness, and I cannot undo my sin without the gift of the blood of Christ.

But you can't have it "conditionally (by the law), and also have it "still count as a gift of mercy and not of works (by the sacrifice of Christ)." as you stated here.

I only wanted to show how a gift can be offered conditionally by works (by the law) and still count as a gift of mercy and not of works (by the sacrifice of Christ).

The problem is that you are assuming that only by your works is the righteousness of God credited to you. It's a new spin on the old idea of a works based salvation and is the same thing that francisdesales believes. It is Jesus' work on the cross that is the righteousness God that saves. This is a gift received by faith alone.

I hope both of you take the time to read this because I'm spending the time to type it out for you. Getting back to basics. Tell me what you think.

------------------------

GOOD NEWS FOR LAWBREAKERS

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

There is just no way to wriggle out of it. The facts stare us in the face. None of us can look into the mirror of God's Law and feel good about ourselves. Not if we are honest. Along with everyone else, we are accountable to God. His holy standard makes us painfully aware of the fact that we are lawbreakers.

FACING OUR CONDITION

The Law of God was not given to save us. The Ten Commandments do not serve as a stepladder up which we climb to heaven. Rather, as we have discovered, God's Law was given to pinpoint sin, to define it, to bring it out of it's hiding place. We are confronted by the seriousness of sin. It is an offense against God. His Law is broken by our disobedience. By our rebellion we despise His authority. As a result, we find ourselves alienated and condemned. The wrath of God is "revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness" (Romans 1:18).

We should not think of God's wrath in terms of the volatile arbitrary outbursts of Human emotion. In The Gospel for Real Life, Jerry Bridges writes of God's wrath: "This is not the mere petulance of an offended deity because his commands are not obeyed. It is rather the necessary response of God to uphold His moral authority in the universe." This explains statements like these in the Psalms: "The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong"(Psalm 5:5). "God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day" (Psalm 7:11).

The gravity of our condition is brought home to us not simply by realizing the extent of our predicament but by pondering the length to which God went in order to rescue us. Only in the death of the Lord Jesus on behalf of sinners could God's justice be served and God's love conveyed.

God's Provision

How deep the Father's love for us

How vast beyond all measure

That He should give His only Son

To make a wretch His treasure.

How deep the pain of searing loss

The Father turns His face away

And wounds that mar the chosen one

Bring many sons to glory.

In this wonderful hymn Stuart Townsend captures the essence of God's intervention on behalf of sinners. We stand condemned before the Law, rebels running from a Holy God. What are we to do? What can we do? The apostle Paul answers these questions. Having described the bad news of our condition, he goes on to declare the good news of God's provision.

"But now a righteousness from God apart from the law has been made known" (Romans 3:21). Here is good news indeed! What we are not able to accomplish, God has accomplished for us. This refers to the perfect righteousness of the Lord Jesus. In His life Jesus obeyed perfectly all the precepts of the Law, and in His death He bore fully all the punishment our sins deserve. In the Cross, sin has been fully dealt with and God has been fully satisfied.

Does this mean that because Jesus died upon the cross men and woman are automatically forgiven? The apostle answers that crucial question in the next verse. "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe" (Romans 3:22). It is by trusting in Him as our Saviour that we become the beneficiaries of all that He has accomplished. the essence of this divine transaction is this: "God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). In this great exchange God took our sin and charged it to Christ and took all of His righteousness and credited it to us. "To put it in a very contemporary form, God treated Christ as we deserved to be treated, so that He might treat us as Christ deserved to be treated."

A PERSONAL RESPONSE

When we moved to the United States twenty years ago we did something that we had never done in the previous eight years of marriage, we bought a house. It was a new, frightening, wonderful experience involving terminology with which I was to that point unfamiliar. I remember that all the discussions and inspections led to what is refered to as THE CLOSING. On a particular day the papers were signed and the transaction completed. Becoming a Christian is not dissimilar. In fact the Puritans spoke in terms of "closing" with Christ.

The answer to our condition as lawbreakers is Jesus Christ Himself. It is to come to Him and accept the currency of blood He has offered to purchase our freedom. It means recognizing the futility of attempting to please God by our own good deeds. It involves coming to Him, saying:

Just as I am, without one plea,

But that Thy blood was shed for me,

And that Thou bidd'st me come to Thee,

O Lamb of God, I come! I come!

--Charlotte Elliott (1789-1871)

It remains for me to ask: Do you have a relationship with God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you believe in Him? Have you entrusted your life to Him? Are you trusting in Him alone to save you? Have you "closed" with Christ? Is so, you will have come to the point of praying:

Lord Jesus Christ, I stand exposed as a lawbreaker. I cannot hide form You; help me to hide in You. All of my efforts to better myself and fulfill the law have proved futile, only You can save me. You have died to bring forgiveness. Forgive me and cleanse me from the guilt and power of sin.

Have you ever prayed like that?

SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE

God accepts us for Christ's sake and now we stand in grace (Romans 5:2). This will always be the case. We do not make ourselves more acceptable to God avoiding certain sin or performing Christian duties. Every day we are dependant on the perfect righteousness of Christ. As B. B. Warfield wrote:

There is nothing in us or done by us, at any stage of our earthly development, because of which we are acceptable to God. We must always be accepted for Christ's sake, or we cannot be accepted at all. This is not true of us only when we believe. It is just as true after we have believed. It will continue to be true as long as we live. Our need of Christ does not cease with our believing; nor does the nature of our relation to Him or to God through Him ever alter, no matter what our attainments in Christian graces or our achievements in behavior may be. It is always on His "blood and righteousness" alone that we can rest

So when the devil tempts us to despair by reminding us of the evil in our hearts, we do not respond by listing our achievements but by looking away to Christ and wrapping around ourselves the undeserved robe of righteousness which is ours in Him.

In Christ alone my hope is found

He is my light, my strength, my song.

This cornerstone, this solid Ground,

Firm thru' the fiercest drought and storm.

What heights of love, what depths of peace,

When fears are stilled, when strivings cease!

My Comforter, my All in All,

Here in the love of Christ I stand.

C.H. Spurgeon encouraged his congregation along these lines when he wrote:

It is ever the Holy Spirit's work to turn our eyes away from self to Jesus; but Satan's work is just the opposite of this, for he is constantly trying to make us regard ourselves instead of Christ. He insinuates, "Your sins are too great for pardon; you have no faith; you do not repent enough; you will never be able to continue to the end; you have not the joy of his children; you have such a wavering hold of Jesus." All these are thoughts about self, and we shall never find comfort or assurance by looking within. But the Holy Spirit turns our eyes entirely away from self: he tells us we are nothing, but that "Christ is All in All." Remember, therefore, it is not your hold of christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not your joy in Christ that saves you--it is Christ; it is not even faith in Christ, thought that be the instrument--it is Christ's blood and merits; therefore, look not so much to your hand with which you art grasping Christ, as to Christ; look not to your hope, but to Jesus, the source of your hope; look not to your faith, but to Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith. We shall never find happiness by looking at our prayers, our doings, or our feelings; it is what Jesus is, not what we are, that gives rest to the soul. If we would at once overcome Satan and have peace with God, it must be by "looking unto Jesus." Keep your eye simply on him; let his death, his sufferings, his merits, his glories, his intercession, be fresh upon your mind; when you wake in the morning look to him; when you lie down at night look to him. Do not let your hopes and fears come between you and Jesus; follow hard after him, and he will never fail you.

Enough said!

---Alistair Begg

Pathway to Freedom

How God's laws guide our lives.

 

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote: But you can't have it "conditionally (by the law), and also have it "still count as a gift of mercy and not of works (by the sacrifice of Christ)." as you stated here.

I gave you a perfectly good analogy of how that would all fit together but you stole the little girl’s pony and rode off into the sunset. :wink: It’s not your fault, Dave… those never work.
It all fits together like a hand in a glove if you keep some things in mind and don’t change the meaning of the words to fit your own theology. I’ll differentiate between the gift and the reward, so you can see the difference better.

The gift is the Blood of Christ. Whereas the blood of sheep and bulls could never take away sin, the Blood of Jesus does… and nothing, repeat, ad nauseam, Nothing, can be added to the blood of Christ to make your sins erased. It works, and God proved it worked when he raised Jesus from the dead. That is what cleanses you when you repent and confess your sins. It works every time, and Jesus doesn’t have to renew it or update it, no matter how many times you use it. One death fits all. Not of works, lest any man should boast. It is given to us by the mercy and grace of God because he loves us.

This gift makes the reward of eternal life possible. (So far, you like it, right?) I say ‘possible’ because the eternal life is a conditional reward. The conditions are more intense than even the ten commandments, they are the spirit of the law, not just the checklist for getting by. The law was just a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Christ takes the law and writes it on our hearts, and interprets in our everyday situations so we know what to do that will please him. It is simply to love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself. That involves more than can be written in a million books. And it covers sins of omission as well as sins of commission, making sure that all are put under the sentence of death and all must rely on the blood to be forgiven.

After you have been forgiven, you must forgive others. There were no conditions on the blood to cover your sin other than to repent and confess but once you are forgiven, you must forgive as you were forgiven by God. See the parable of the unjust servant ( Matthew 18:21-35 ). He went from ‘forgiven of all his debt’ to ‘cast unto the tormentors’ in a heartbeat.

Obedience is a condition of the reward of eternal life and the gift of the blood makes perfect obedience a reality, as we continue to repent and confess our sin.

Faith is a condition of the reward of eternal life because if you don‘t have faith, you will see no need to follow what Jesus said to do nor believe what the blood does for you when you repent.

Dave... quoted: “So when the devil tempts us to despair by reminding us of the evil in our hearts, we do not respond by listing our achievements but by looking away to Christ and wrapping around ourselves the undeserved robe of righteousness which is ours in Him.â€Â

Translation: confess, repent and the blood of Jesus will cleanse you from all unrighteousness, which gives you hope in place of despair.

Dave... quoted: “.But the Holy Spirit turns our eyes entirely away from self: he tells us we are nothing, but that "Christ is All in All."

Correction: The Holy Spirit tells us that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

Dave… wrote: I hope both of you take the time to read this because I'm spending the time to type it out for you. Getting back to basics. Tell me what you think.

I think I like your own thoughts that you not only type but think up yourself, Dave… I feel like I’m talking to a recording when I get to the bottom of one of your retyped masterpieces. I think I like real and fresh, not canned, frozen or dried. I think you could do better explaining what you personally believe than either Alistair Begg, C.H. Spurgeon, B. B. Warfield, or Jerry Bridges. You wouldn’t share gum that you found under a bus seat, would you? :wink:

 

[John the Baptist]

Talk is cheap fruit that is usually tied on to what some call faith.

Show me a professed Christian that does not work for the one that died for them? and you will find these ones 'working' for sartan. Revelation 3:16-17

And Christ states it plainly that the person(s) make Him sick!
---John

 

[unred typo]

John the Baptist wrote: Talk is cheap fruit that is usually tied on to what some call faith.

I agree, John. That fruit is like the plastic apples my daughter tied to a tree she made of twisted glued paper tubes and silk leaves. It looked real pretty but the fruit was not even fit for worms. :

 

[Dave...]

This gift makes the reward of eternal life possible. (So far, you like it, right?) I say ‘possible’ because the eternal life is a conditional reward. The conditions are more intense than even the ten commandments, they are the spirit of the law, not just the checklist for getting by.

You are double minded. You cannot both glory in the Cross and disparage it at the same time. This makes you an enemy of the cross. Jesus did not die on the cross to make salvation possible, He died to save sinners.

You yourself believe that man is not totaly depraved, do you not? So why would Jesus need to die on the cross to make salvation a possibility in the first place? You stumble at the stumbling stone.

Where are you concerning the atonement. read here.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/SC03-1027CDNotes.htm

Head these words well, my friend, because the Pharisee in this parable is you, whether you admit to yourself or not. Jesus said...

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other menâ€â€extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.â€Â

Who *is* (not 'is going to be', but *is*) justified before God? The man who trusted in Christ, not the one who trusted in himself, as you do.

Philippians 3:9 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Romans 9:30-33 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:


“ Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.â€Â

Galatians 2:21 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.â€Â

I know you don't think that you are under the law because you claim to do what you do in love, but you do not, you do it to earn something, which makes it not of love.

=====================================================
1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

13:5 (love)does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;

Your works profit you nothing because you seek your own and that's not love. It's a chatch twenty two. The moment you apply works to earn anything for yourself, they profit you nothing.
=====================================================

The law was just a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Christ takes the law and writes it on our hearts, and interprets in our everyday situations so we know what to do that will please him.

Lets look at the context.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that **the promise by faith in Jesus Christ** might be given to those who believe. ...

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.[but under grace]

How easily you read your preconceived doctrines into the Word of God to distort it to mean the opposite of what it said.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Works are an evidence of one who is already saved/justified.

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

 

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote: You are double minded. You cannot both glory in the Cross and disparage it at the same time. This makes you an enemy of the cross. Jesus did not die on the cross to make salvation possible, He died to save sinners.
You yourself believe that man is not totaly depraved, do you not? So why would Jesus need to die on the cross to make salvation a possibility in the first place? You stumble at the stumbling stone.

Calm yourself, Dave… and think about it. What did I say? Without the blood, we can not get rid of our sin. Only the blood can wash away our sin, Dave…. Why would you say I disparage it? I’m trusting in it. I’m not perfect and I must confess my sins daily to be made perfect by the blood of Christ. How would we be saved without the cross?



Dave… wrote: Head these words well, my friend, because the Pharisee in this parable is you, whether you admit to yourself or not. Jesus said...
“9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other menâ€â€extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.â€Â
Who *is* (not 'is going to be', but *is*) justified before God? The man who trusted in Christ, not the one who trusted in himself, as you do.

I do read them and heed them, but you need to notice that it was the tax collector who confesses of his sins and repents, not the Pharisee. The tax collector doesn’t even know Christ, and Christ has not yet died for his sin. It is his humility in admitting his sin, his confession and repentance that is the basis of his justification. The Pharisee never admits he has ever sinned. Notice that he “despised othersâ€Â. Is that ‘love one anotherâ€Â? Look at how he brags. Is that humility? Jesus said the tax collector was exalted because he was humble.
The tax collector was justified as long as he was repentant and didn’t go back to his old sins or find new ones. In which case, he would need to acknowledge this sin also, and repent of it.



Dave… wrote: I know you don't think that you are under the law because you claim to do what you do in love, but you do not, you do it to earn something, which makes it not of love.

I find it hard to believe you can see my thoughts and the intents of my heart. You can’t even see what I write in plain English. You’re still confused about what I said. Let me explain it again. I’m not under the old law because I’m under the law of love, which are the commands of Christ. I’m not saved by the law of Christ but by the blood of Christ. I am commanded to obey the law of Christ and if I walk in his ways, the blood will cleanse me of all unrighteousness. Yes, I want to live, therefore, I want to follow what Jesus said to do. Why do you have a problem with that? That is simply having faith in what God said.



Dave… wrote: Lets look at the context. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that **the promise by faith in Jesus Christ** might be given to those who believe. ...
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.[but under grace]
How easily you read your preconceived doctrines into the Word of God to distort it to mean the opposite of what it said.

Actually, “but under grace†was your addition. The tutor brings us to Christ and we are no longer under the tutor, but instead we are under Christ. We are to have faith in Christ, believe what he said and do it. If we walk in the light, (i.e. love one another, confess, repent, forgive), we are living by faith that the blood will take away our imperfections and make our ways perfect before God, and he will give us eternal life as he promised.



Dave… wrote: Works are an evidence of one who is already saved/justified.

Sure they are. And sin is an evidence of one who needs to repent and get right with God, even if they have already been justified of the sins that are past:
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

[Dave...]

Calm yourself, Dave… and think about it. What did I say? Without the blood, we can not get rid of our sin. Only the blood can wash away our sin, Dave…. Why would you say I disparage it? I’m trusting in it. I’m not perfect and I must confess my sins daily to be made perfect by the blood of Christ. How would we be saved without the cross?

Is it that bad that I cannot even reply to you without you forgetting what I was replying to? Reminder...you said

"This gift makes the reward of eternal life possible. (So far, you like it, right?) I say ‘possible’ because the eternal life is a conditional reward. The conditions are more intense than even the ten commandments, they are the spirit of the law, not just the checklist for getting by."

I do read them and heed them, but you need to notice that it was the tax collector who confesses of his sins and repents, not the Pharisee. The tax collector doesn’t even know Christ, and Christ has not yet died for his sin. It is his humility in admitting his sin, his confession and repentance that is the basis of his justification. The Pharisee never admits he has ever sinned. Notice that he “despised othersâ€Â. Is that ‘love one anotherâ€Â? Look at how he brags. Is that humility? Jesus said the tax collector was exalted because he was humble.
The tax collector was justified as long as he was repentant and didn’t go back to his old sins or find new ones. In which case, he would need to acknowledge this sin also, and repent of it.

Who trusted in their works? Who came in faith?

Unread wrote:
"This gift makes the reward of eternal life possible. (So far, you like it, right?) I say ‘possible’ because the eternal life is a conditional reward. The conditions are more intense than even the ten commandments, they are the spirit of the law, not just the checklist for getting by."

I’m not under the old law because I’m under the law of love, which are the commands of Christ.

Have you done it perfectly? You believe that your salvation depends on it.

I am commanded to obey the law of Christ and if I walk in his ways, the blood will cleanse me of all unrighteousness. Yes, I want to live, therefore, I want to follow what Jesus said to do. Why do you have a problem with that? That is simply having faith in what God said.

It's going on nine pages now and you still avoid it like the plague. "if I walk in His ways" Do you not see what you are saying? If you do not walk in His ways perfectly then you are condemned.

People who are saved walk in His ways because it is their new nature, it's what they want to do. That's the evidence of a new heart, one who is already justified.

Why do you try to earn something that is a gift? Do you know that by doing that you become the Pharisee in the parable.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

This is not rocket science, is it?

You have cancelled out grace by trusting in your works.

You may ask, "how do you know i'm trusting in my works?"

I'll tell you, because if you trusted in Christ and what He has done you would know that you are already justified before God on His merit and sinlessness, by His blood.

But you try to make justification a process because you want to trust works as part of the equation to earn the gift.

Tell me "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "

Yes, this would be the same Holy Spirit that "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

The Trinity works in Harmony Ephesians 1:3-14

Ephesians 1:3-6 The Fathers election.

Ephesians 1:7-12 The Son's redemption.

Ephesians 1:13-14 The Spirit as the seal.

Again, I ask, "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "

When you answer this question, we will carry on.

 

[unred typo]

Dave… wrote: “Is it that bad that I cannot even reply to you without you forgetting what I was replying to? Reminder...you said
"This gift makes the reward of eternal life possible. (So far, you like it, right?) I say ‘possible’ because the eternal life is a conditional reward. The conditions are more intense than even the ten commandments, they are the spirit of the law, not just the checklist for getting by."

You called me a “double minded“ “enemy of the cross“ who tried to “both glory in the Cross and disparage it at the same time,“ making me stumble at the stumbling stone.†Do you think I would let that slide by? Believe me, I answered that and in more than just what you quoted back but obviously the words are getting in the way. You need to reread the entire exchange again. If you can’t see what one thing has to do with the other, we have different definitions of the words themselves. You repeated what I said twice but I see you have not repeated what you felt I didn’t answer. Why don’t you start there.



Dave… wrote about the tax collector and the Pharisee “Who trusted in their works? Who came in faith?â€Â

Obviously, the Pharisee was trusting in the works of the law, in his own perfection in keeping them, and believed that he didn’t have any sin or any need to repent.
The tax collector is repentant and confesses his sins. Jesus does not say if he had faith or not. He says specifically that he came in humility and described how sorry he was for his sins. He doesn’t “ask Jesus into his heart†nor does he nonchalantly declare himself “born again†for believing in the Messiah’s future sacrifice. He comes begging for forgiveness and is justified.
In fact, Jesus doesn’t even say the tax collector has faith that God has indeed forgiven him. Does your Bible say that he went away rejoicing because the Lord forgave him? Mine doesn’t.

Dave… wrote: Have you done it perfectly? You believe that your salvation depends on it.

Have I ever said anyone could keep the perfect law of Christ perfectly, Dave…? No, I have said that if we sin, when we are walking in the light as he is in the light, the blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness. These would be sins that we commit unintentionally and unknowingly. What if we sin when we are not in the light of God’s love for one another, and not walking according to the way of Christ? Then we must repent of our sin and forsake it and get right with God again, and then we will be forgiven. I hope that’s clear now.


Dave… wrote: It's going on nine pages now and you still avoid it like the plague. "if I walk in His ways" Do you not see what you are saying? If you do not walk in His ways perfectly then you are condemned.
People who are saved walk in His ways because it is their new nature, it's what they want to do. That's the evidence of a new heart, one who is already justified.

Oh I see we’re doing the chicken/egg debate now. Maybe we could ask the real question here: If people who are saved, are not saved, how can they be saved?
No, not going there, Dave… it’s really simpler than that. People who have repented of their sin, don’t want to sin. We can call them ‘saved’ as long as they continue in this repentance. What if they say, “let us sin that grace may aboundâ€Â, stop walking in his ways and party like there‘s no tomorrow? Paul said, their end is death, not eternal life:

Romans 6:20-23 “For when ye were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness.
What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.â€Â
Are you saying that they shall surely not die? Where have I heard that line before?

Dave… asks and repeats: Again, I ask, "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
When you answer this question, we will carry on.

My original post was, “I am commanded to obey the law of Christ and if I walk in his ways, the blood will cleanse me of all unrighteousness. Yes, I want to live, therefore, I want to follow what Jesus said to do. Why do you have a problem with that? That is simply having faith in what God said.†and your answer was that I “have cancelled out grace by trusting in (my) works†and “try to make justification a process because (I) want to trust works as part of the equation to earn the gift.†You say that you can tell that I'm “trusting in my works" because if I “trusted in Christ and what He has done,†I would know that I am “already justified before God on His merit and sinlessness, by His blood.†Then you encapsulate this by Paul’s question to the Galatians who were teaching that circumcision was necessary for salvation. Strange.
Ok. I don’t want you to miss this because you say we can’t go on unless I answer.
We do not receive the Spirit by keeping the rites of the OT law. We receive the Spirit when we repent of our sins and choose to walk in love for one another and for God. I hope you’re getting as tired of hearing this as I am of saying it. If we repent of our sins, (i.e. like the humble, repentant tax collector) we are justified (i.e. like the humble, repentant tax collector). Unlike the humble, repentant tax collector though, we can have faith and trust and believe that we are forgiven. We can lift our eyes to heaven and thank God for his mercy and love which we did not deserve.

Now, to go on… is this a permanent justification? Yes, as long as you continue in this attitude toward sin and continue to walk in love. If you break the seal that the Holy Spirit put on you by turning from Christ and following Satan, you will need to repent and go back to where you left Christ or you had better take these verses very seriously:

Romans 2:6-11 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

To the weary reader: Sorry for the length of this. Dave...'s fault. :wink:

 

[JM]

The heart of the matter is the atonement.

Dr. James White asked the following questions during a written debate with Dave Hunt:

Is the atonement substitutionary?

Did Jesus take the penalty of sin for every person who has ever lived, is living, and ever will live?

If so, what was God's intention in laying the sin of every person on Christ?

Was it His purpose to make men savable, or to actually atone for their sins?

And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him?

Did Jesus, as the faithful High Priest, intercede for those who will never be saved?

And if so, what is the nature of this failed intercession?

And is it not true that Mr. Hunt and those who follow his views limit the atonement's effect and power, while Reformed theologians limit its scoope and intention?

 

[unred typo]

JM wrote: “And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him?â€Â

I think we could look at the parable of the unjust servant. The servant begged for mercy. The king forgives him all his debt, unconditionally just out of mercy because he felt sorry for him. But then, because the servant refuses to do as the king has done and be merciful to the one who owes him even a small amount, the king revokes his gift of grace and requires payment in full. Jesus plainly says that this is how God will treat us if we don’t forgive others. His forgiveness is unconditionally granted without payment if we will just admit our debt, and ask for forgiveness. But we are required to show the same love and mercy to others that was shown to us.

 

[Dave...]

Believe me, I answered that and in more than just what you quoted back but obviously the words are getting in the way. You need to reread the entire exchange again. If you can’t see what one thing has to do with the other, we have different definitions of the words themselves. You repeated what I said twice but I see you have not repeated what you felt I didn’t answer. Why don’t you start there.

I know exactly what you have been saying. It's not confusing to me, really. Would you consider the possibility that it is you who are not hearing what I'm telling you?

Obviously, the Pharisee was trusting in the works of the law, in his own perfection in keeping them, and believed that he didn’t have any sin or any need to repent.
The tax collector is repentant and confesses his sins. Jesus does not say if he had faith or not. He says specifically that he came in humility and described how sorry he was for his sins. He doesn’t “ask Jesus into his heart†nor does he nonchalantly declare himself “born again†for believing in the Messiah’s future sacrifice. He comes begging for forgiveness and is justified. In fact, Jesus doesn’t even say the tax collector has faith that God has indeed forgiven him. Does your Bible say that he went away rejoicing because the Lord forgave him? Mine doesn’t.

It doesn't say that the Pharisee was claiming to be sinless. The implication was that he felt he was made righteous before God by his lack of sin and his good works as compared to the other man. Instead of understanding that God requires perfect righteousness, and perfect obedience, in his heart he lowered God by lowering His standards, and thinking that he could be made righteous before God, he glorified himself in his heart. He failed because the only comparison that should have been made is to God and His perfect standard for justification. We look to the only One who was found just before God, and in knowing that we are not, we know that we need Him, and we are not to trust in ourselves for justification. The tax collector understood this (From an OT perspective, see link below), only bringing his asking for forgiveness, in faith, and this is the true faith that saves. "...standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’"

The Lord forgave him because He was justified "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other;"

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, *through faith* in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, (OT SAINTS BEFORE PENTECOST) 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

(OT SAINTS BEFORE PENTECOST) Added by Dave.

Read more here. http://www.hannity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64386

Have I ever said anyone could keep the perfect law of Christ perfectly, Dave…? No, I have said that if we sin, when we are walking in the light as he is in the light, the blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness. These would be sins that we commit unintentionally and unknowingly. What if we sin when we are not in the light of God’s love for one another, and not walking according to the way of Christ? Then we must repent of our sin and forsake it and get right with God again, and then we will be forgiven. I hope that’s clear now.

But what you don't understand is that by just saying that you don't want to be under the law, doesn't guarantee that you are not under the law.


Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.â€Â

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

When works are not looked at as an evidence, but as a way or means to justification, even a way or a means to that which justifies, then you are no longer under grace, but law.

No, not going there, Dave… it’s really simpler than that. People who have repented of their sin, don’t want to sin. We can call them ‘saved’ as long as they continue in this repentance. What if they say, “let us sin that grace may aboundâ€Â, stop walking in his ways and party like there‘s no tomorrow? Paul said, their end is death, not eternal life:

Because they manifest that they never were saved. "You can tell a tree by it's fruit." Perseverance is the mark of a person in Christ. If they don't persevere, they were not in Christ. How do we know this? Because perseverance is of God, and Saved people don't fall.

1 Peter 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

We do not receive the Spirit by keeping the rites of the OT law. We receive the Spirit when we repent of our sins and choose to walk in love for one another and for God.

Let's keep trying, one more time...

"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "

The options are...

1) "by the works of the law"

2) "or by the hearing of faith"

 

[Dave...]

JM

The heart of the matter is the atonement.

Dr. James White asked the following questions during a written debate with Dave Hunt:

Is the atonement substitutionary?

Did Jesus take the penalty of sin for every person who has ever lived, is living, and ever will live?

If so, what was God's intention in laying the sin of every person on Christ?

Was it His purpose to make men savable, or to actually atone for their sins?

And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him?

Did Jesus, as the faithful High Priest, intercede for those who will never be saved?

And if so, what is the nature of this failed intercession?

And is it not true that Mr. Hunt and those who follow his views limit the atonement's effect and power, while Reformed theologians limit its scoope and intention?

The implications of one's understanding of this are huge. Some of your questions make a few of them known.

Unread

His forgiveness is unconditionally granted without payment if we will just admit our debt, and ask for forgiveness. But we are required to show the same love and mercy to others that was shown to us.

Unread, this statement contradicts itself.

"granted without payment if we will just admit our debt, and ask for forgiveness."

OR

"But we are required to show the same love and mercy to others that was shown to us."

How do we reconsile the two?

It's not a requirement, but an evidence, as scripture tells us it is.

Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

It's not a requirement, but part of our new nature. An evidence of who we are.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.

what does it mean to be under grace, and not under the law...

Romans 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

Ephesians 5:9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),

Only a saved person has this.

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

2 Tim. 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Works are an evidence.

 

[unred typo]

Dave… said: I know exactly what you have been saying. It's not confusing to me, really. Would you consider the possibility that it is you who are not hearing what I'm telling you?

It’s possible you don‘t hear yourself either, Dave… since I asked you in my last two posts to explain what it was you felt I didn’t answer and you still side stepped it. I guess it wasn’t important after all. That suits me. I’m tired of repeating myself.



Dave… said: Instead of understanding that God requires perfect righteousness, and perfect obedience, he lowered God by lowering His standards, and thinking that he could be made righteous before God, he glorified himself in his heart.
…The tax collector understood this, bringing only his asking for forgiveness, in faith, and this is the true faith that saves.

You may be right that the Pharisee didn’t think that God required perfection. I think it was Christ who brought up that requirement. When Jesus said, “be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect,†he was actually raising the bar so that all would be bound under sin, and God could have mercy upon all. The Pharisee did think he was good enough in his own eyes and judged others harshly. You’re wrong about the tax collector though. There is no justification to add that he “came in faith.†Jesus said he came in humility and was sorrowful about his sin. You’re adding your own twist by saying he had faith. Whether he had faith or not is immaterial anyways.


Dave… wrote: The Lord forgave him because He was justified "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other;"

I know he forgave him. I said that. What I meant was there is no reason to believe that the man knew he was justified. It doesn’t say the man went away rejoicing and it doesn‘t say the man‘s faith made him whole and it doesn‘t imply that he trusted that God would forgive him. You have colored this parable to match your ‘no works’ gospel, as you do with all the scriptures. The point Jesus made and you refuse to accept is that the humble, repentant man was justified while the unrepentant, proud man who despised others, was not. Humility and repentance was the object of this lesson, not faith versus works.


Dave… wrote: because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, (OT SAINTS BEFORE PENTECOST) Added by Dave.

Right. Added by Dave…



Dave… wrote: But what you don't understand is that by just saying that you don't want to be under the law, doesn't guarantee that you are not under the law.

You don’t think you would notice if you got circumcised or couldn’t eat bacon or pork or shell fish or had to take a bull to the priest or could only wear pure linen or cotton clothes or hundreds of other things too numerous to mention? The law of Christ is not the Jewish rites and ordinances that were added to the ten commandments. I am under the law of Christ, therefore I am not under the law of Moses. I am free to love and forgive others and not worry about all the ‘thou shalt nots’. Love fulfills the law of Moses, but the OT ordinances are done away in Christ.



Dave… wrote: Let's keep trying, one more time...
"This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
The options are...
1) "by the works of the law"

2) "or by the hearing of faith"

We do not receive the Spirit by keeping the rites and rituals and the letter of the OT law. We receive the Spirit when we hear the gospel to repent of our sins and have faith in what Jesus said we must do to be saved and thereby choose to walk humbly in love for one another and for God, confessing our sins daily. Now is that plain enough for you or would you like to hear it again rephrased and tied in a bow? What number would you gie it? Sounds like 2) the hearing of faith.



I told you that you might as well say, “If people who are saved, are not saved, how can they be saved?†and you did just that without batting an eye. S’mazing.
:roll: