Justified by His Blood alone !

[beloved57]

Not now soon said

Those who are counted as rightous are those who believe in God.

That is not what Rom 5:19 says. According to this, many shall be counted righteous by the obedience of one. That One is Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

You must don't believe what a work is.

Rather, you don't believe your own definition of work!! Why is that?

work, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.
doing,
("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire(intension, purpose).
an act, deed, thing done
Believing is something done by the person. So by definition its a work ! You can't get around it.

I'm not even trying to get around anything. It seems you've already forgotten your own definition of "work". How about reviewing what you provided.

What you've provided here isn't anything close to what was previously provided.

From your post #34:
"Here's the original definition that was provided in post #34:
"The word work in the bible as in Eph 2:9 is the greek word ergon and means:
2.any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind"

Flip.flop.

Its the carrying out of a inner desire.

I don't accept your faulty definition.

So you promote salvation by works.

So you don't even stand by your previous definition, but have had to change it after I totally challenged and explained your own definition, which dismantled your own views.

 

[beloved57]

Free Grace says:

So, it is man's action of believing that fulfills God's requirement for whom to save.

Now action means work. Here's the definition of a work according to the greek word ergon:
an act, deed, thing done,
a good deed, noble action
SO he promotes salvation by works. by the action of man.

 

[FreeGrace]

Free Grace says:
"So, it is man's action of believing that fulfills God's requirement for whom to save."

Now action means work. Here's the definition of a work according to the greek word ergon:
an act, deed, thing done,
a good deed, noble action
SO he promotes salvation by works. by the action of man.

Once again, b57 dodges his own definition of works. The action of believing, which is thinking, is NOT a work, by his own definition in post #34, which he's now trying to walk it back.

But he's not going to get away with such tricks.

Thinking that results in a PRODUCT fits his own definition of work, because work involves a product.

But he's incapable of providing ANY kind of example of how believing the gospel results in a PRODUCT because believing the gospel doesn't produce a PRODUCT.

So his charges are empty and his opinions don't line up with any Scripture.

 

[beloved57]

Free Grace says:

The key to salvation, having eternal life, being forgiven and justified is found in believing in Jesus Christ. Not in His death.

What a statement that dishonors the death of Christ. Why by His one death alone many shall be made righteous. That's Salvation! Rom 5:19!

 

[beloved57]

Once again, b57 dodges his own definition of works. The action of believing, which is thinking, is NOT a work, by his own definition in post #34, which he's now trying to walk it back.

But he's not going to get away with such tricks.

Thinking that results in a PRODUCT fits his own definition of work, because work involves a product.

But he's incapable of providing ANY kind of example of how believing the gospel results in a PRODUCT because believing the gospel doesn't produce a PRODUCT.

So his charges are empty and his opinions don't line up with any Scripture.

You are guilty of teaching salvation by works, the action of man!

 

[Mike]

Here is a warning very much like many you've seen by us in the past. Members reading the minds of others, diagnosing the heart of another, making bold unsubstantiated claims that someone promotes a certain theology.

Very little of the posts over the past few pages were issue focused. They were aimed right at the heart of another believer.

 

[chessman]

Exodus 12:7, 13 (LEB) And they will take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel on the houses in which they eat it. ... And the blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and I will see the blood, and I will pass over you, and there will not be a destructive plague among you when I strike the land of Egypt. ​

I wonder... Was (is) it necessary for the blood to actually be placed on the doors or would (is) believing in the Lord and that the Lord would (will) passover them (you) be enough. I'm thinking you better actually have some of His blood on your door.

 

[Sinthesis]

Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.​

And if you don't open the door? Is opening the door a work?

 

[FreeGrace]

Free Grace says:
"The key to salvation, having eternal life, being forgiven and justified is found in believing in Jesus Christ. Not in His death."

What a statement that dishonors the death of Christ.

This just demonstrates the extend to which His death and the need to believe in Him isn't being understood.

Why by His one death alone many shall be made righteous. That's Salvation! Rom 5:19!

[edited]

Paul put it all in clear perspective in 1 Cor 15:3 - For I delivered (preached) to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Then he wrote this:
v.11- Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

So, once again, the issue is to BELIEVE in His death on behalf of all mankind for salvation.

And once again, if His death alone secures anyone's salvation, there is no reason to believe in Him. And since the Bible is clear about the FACT that He died for ALL, meaning everyone, His death does NOT save.

We are saved by God for believing in what His death accomplished, which is paying the penalty due us, which "puts an end to sin", per Dan 9:24 - “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

I don't know how it could be stated more clearly.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are guilty of teaching salvation by works, the action of man!

And calling the action of believing God's promise a work has NOT been shown. The Bible totally disagrees with your opinion by contrasting works and faith, as I've already shown.

So the claim is spurious.

 

[smaller]

So, the Bible has 3 verses that SAY that His death was universal, not limited to only a certain group or class.

Uh, no. That is patently untrue. God in Christ did not die for devils for example. And there is little reason for "atonement" to apply to inanimate objects either. So in this way, at a minimum, atonement is limited to "mankind" as a general purpose.

In this way atonement is both universal to a class and limited/non-existing to other classes.

Jesus was not sacrificed for devils.

Ultimately, the "effect" of atonement can only be perceived by faith. And that also "limits" it's perceptions to the "faithful."

We can witness to it to all people. But it can only be accepted by faith in the faithful.

Romans 6:
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So, the Bible has 3 verses that SAY that His death was universal, not limited to only a certain group or class."

Uh, no. That is patently untrue. God in Christ did not die for devils for example.

And I never said that He died for any creature other than humans. I'm sorry you've misunderstood.

But there are 3 verses that says that Christ died for all. That means all people. Not all creatures.

And there is little reason for "atonement" to apply to inanimate objects either. So in this way, at a minimum, atonement is limited to "mankind" as a general purpose.

Yes, what was my point, which refutes the OP, because if the OP claim was correct, then universalism would be true, which is clear from Scripture isn't true at all.

 

[smaller]

Yes, what was my point, which refutes the OP, because if the OP claim was correct, then universalism would be true, which is clear from Scripture isn't true at all.

The converse view is that the atonement is completely ineffective for those without faith, even in the "for all of mankind camps" of understandings, making atonement essentially ineffective for that class. It's problematic to claim universal effect, yet deny the effect simultaneously don't you think?

In other words, yeah, atonement is sufficient for all mankind, but totally worthless, bottom line, to unbelievers.

This is part of the basis of most forms of determinism, to avoid that problem.

 

[chessman]

..., atonement is sufficient for all mankind, but totally worthless, bottom line, to unbelievers.

It serves as a stumbling stone and further basis for offensive charges for ALL unbelievers.

1 Peter 2:6-8 (LEB) For it stands in scripture, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.” Therefore the honor is for you who believe, but for those who refuse to believe, “The stone that the builders rejected, this one has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,” who stumble because they disobey the word to which also they were consigned. ​

 

[Jim Parker]

All for whom Christ died have been Justified by that fact alone, because it is by Grace through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus , that is in His Blood Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Redemption and Justification come through His Blood and not by Faith in His Blood.
And we know all men without exception are not Justified, so Christ death wasn't for all without exception!

You have confused

Christ's death and resurrection destroyed the power of death. (1 Cor 15:52-57)

Justification (a totally different topic) is by faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Rom 5:1.... we are justified by faith,
Gal 2:16 ... a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ

 

[smaller]

I might submit that the blood atonement is both completely effective and completely ineffective, simultaneously, IF viewed properly:

Here is a look at Paul. Well, not just Paul:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

For Paul the blood atonement was entirely sufficient for the purposes intended. But that does not extend to the 'other party' in the equations.

Look at yourself prior to belief and you may get the same picture:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Look at a believers sins after salvation. The identical picture will appear. 1 John 3:8.

The same picture will appear for unbelieving Israel in Romans 11:8 and Romans 11:25-32.

Consistency. The finery of scriptural harmony.

 

[FreeGrace]

The converse view is that the atonement is completely ineffective for those without faith, even in the "for all of mankind camps" of understandings, making atonement essentially ineffective for that class. It's problematic to claim universal effect, yet deny the effect simultaneously don't you think?

In other words, yeah, atonement is sufficient for all mankind, but totally worthless, bottom line, to unbelievers.

This is part of the basis of most forms of determinism, to avoid that problem.

I'm aware of the various explanations of the atonement. I am not one of the determinists. My understanding is that by dying for the sins of mankind, He purchased the free gift of eternal life for everyone. So, the gift is available for everyone, but is given only to those who believe.

 

[smaller]

I'm aware of the various explanations of the atonement. I am not one of the determinists. My understanding is that by dying for the sins of mankind, He purchased the free gift of eternal life for everyone. So, the gift is available for everyone, but is given only to those who believe.

Exactly the point I observed. The gift is for all intents and purposes available to ALL mankind, but essentially worthless and ineffective without faith, in such views. I have a theological problem trying to remedy that claim to Romans 11:25-32 for example, previously given in prior post. In that I might say it's effective for whoever God says it's effective for.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is a lot of misconceptions about "holding onto your faith, or you go to hell if you dont".

You are certainly right about the misconceptions. Few know that the Bible plainly says you have to continue to believe to continue to be saved:

"9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." (2 John 1:9-11 NIV)

24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25 NIV)

"1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV)

Some, if not many, are taking false comfort in a false gospel that says they can stop believing the word of the gospel and they still have the Father and the Son and eternal life. As we can see, that's not what the Bible says. That's a man-made, ear tickling teaching that causes believers to stumble and be destroyed. And many it seems are choosing to follow that road to destruction.