LAW

[veryberry]

You are correct if the pastor is teaching one is justified by the law. I really don't think anyone here that really believes one can be justified by the law.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) We are dead to the law. God does not want us to utilize the law(including the law of Moses) for anything except to bring unbelievers to Christ. That is what the law is for in a believers life, to bring unbelievers to Christ.

If you are utilizing a law, you are in the flesh and cannot please God. You are not functioning the way God has made you to be.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sacrifices does not cause the offense to abound. The law of Moses does. The law of Moses brings condemnation and death. God has made us dead to the law.

If you and I are dead to the law--and we most certainly are--then how can it cause sin to abound in our lives?

Stick around for my discussion with Deborah about Romans 7:1-6 NASB. We'll be talking about this veryberry thing.

 

[JLB]

Deborah said -

Oh boy, no Messianic Jew would ever debate that the blood of bulls and goats has not been made obsolete. A Messianic Jew has put their faith in the sacrifice of Christ's blood or by definition they are Not a Messianic Jew.
What some of them will debate is that the whole Law of Moses has been made obsolete. Just as you are. And therefore, if it has not been made obsolete and is still in effect then those other laws should still followed, not for justification, but that it pleases God and so those things are done out of love.

Bulls-eye!

Exactly the point I have been trying to make with Jethro now for years.

There are two sides to this discussion about the law.

Legalism and lawlessness.

Jethro has focused only on the one side, lawlessness.


The Church has erred on the side of lawlessness, think that because we are not under the law but under grace, that the ten commandments no longer apply to us.

Messianic Judaism on the other hand, believes that physical circumcision, feast days, Sabbath rules, and so forth are still to be obeyed.


The balance of the these two extremes is where I try express the scriptures from.

Jethro is right in so many of his post's and sees the great need for the Church to realign herself with the truths of God's commandments and laws, found in the law of Moses.

However, the law of Moses was always temporary, as it was added until the Seed...


The laws and commandments of God, that were before the law of Moses and were expressed in the law of Moses are forever eternal.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you referring to building an altar and offering a burnt offering?

Whatever way God is telling you to do that.

The law was added UNTIL the Seed should come!

Well, Deborah will have a tiff with you about this. She's (needlessly) making a point to me that 'love your neighbor as yourself' was around before the law, and she well knows it's still around but you obviously must believe it was added with Moses and then went away with Christ. Your problem being your doctrine is afraid to call 'love your neighbor as yourself', and other eternal laws of God, the law of Moses, even though the Bible is not afraid to do that.

The law and the prophets were UNTIL John...


Not the temple and priesthood was added until the Seed, but the law was added UNTIL...

The law of Moses was the whole package of Levitical priesthood, specific sacrifices, ceremonial washings, food laws, feast days, Sabbath requirements.

....don't leave out 'do not murder', 'do not steal', 'love your neighbor as yourself'.....

All of this was the law.

All of this was added UNTIL...

All!

Everything that was added, by adding the law and that covenant became obsolete.

Um....'do not murder' did not become obsolete. And that was surely part of the law of Moses. This should be forcing you to see that the law of Moses as a covenant was made obsolete, not the righteous requirements of the law of Moses themselves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro is right in so many of his post's and sees the great need for the Church to realign herself with the truths of God's commandments and laws, found in the law of Moses.

However, the law of Moses was always temporary, as it was added until the Seed...


The laws and commandments of God, that were before the law of Moses and were expressed in the law of Moses are forever eternal.

Don't be afraid to call God's Commandments that the church should realign herself with the law of Moses. The Bible does.

 

[JLB]

J

ethro said -

Whatever way God is telling you to do that.

It seems the way that I do my altar is now called a Bar-B-Que pit.

Unfortunately for those who still believe the law is in effect today, I cook pork baby back ribs on my altar, on Saturday no less.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nope I'm not saying he was speaking to natural Jews. He was speaking to all those who were/had been in Judaism.

Please give me the scripture in Galatians you are referring to.
[...]
Please give me the Galatians scripture you mentioned.

"14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB)

I'm going to watch a little computer (got rid of cable TV, lol), then I'm going to bed. You've brought up some good stuff for discussion. We'll tackle it tomorrow.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

J



It seems the way that I do my altar is now called a Bar-B-Que pit.

Unfortunately for those who still believe the law is in effect today, I cook pork baby back ribs on my altar, on Saturday no less.

I think you're probably just eating out on the grille, not being obedient to offer animal sacrifices to God, but I just wanted to make sure you were being faithful to God's eternal laws you defend. I would have picked you to pieces if you had started on a 'I don't have to do that anymore' rant.

 

[Deborah13]

(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) We are dead to the law. God does not want us to utilize the law(including the law of Moses) for anything except to bring unbelievers to Christ. That is what the law is for in a believers life, to bring unbelievers to Christ.

If you are utilizing a law, you are in the flesh and cannot please God. You are not functioning the way God has made you to be.

I agree that we are dead to the law. That is what scripture says.
Not sure what you mean by utilizing the law....

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Um....'do not murder' did not become obsolete. And that was surely part of the law of Moses. This should be forcing you to see that the law of Moses as a covenant was made obsolete, not the righteous requirements of the law of Moses themselves.

Ive been saying that the laws of God that were seen within the law of Moses are eternal, even though the law of Moses itself, that was added until the Seed, has vanished away.

Even though you try to label me as a law hater.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB, what you need to do tonight is be ready tomorrow to explain why Paul needs to tell us that 'love your neighbor as yourself' is the fulfillment of the law of Moses if the law of Moses is now utterly obsolete as you have been defining that. What does it matter that we fulfill a law that you say is so utterly obsolete?

 

[JLB]

Don't be afraid to call God's Commandments that the church should realign herself with the law of Moses. The Bible does.

Absolutely not!

That's where you and I dis-agree.

The law of Moses was temporary.

Unless you can explain away the word UNTIL, then you are trying to push a string uphill.


JLB

 

[veryberry]

JLB, what you need to do tonight is be ready tomorrow to explain why Paul needs to tell us that 'love your neighbor as yourself' is the fulfillment of the law of Moses if the law of Moses is now utterly obsolete as you have been defining that. What does it matter that we fulfill a law that you say is so utterly obsolete?

Loving your neighbor as yourself is the fulfillment of of the law. But if you are loving your neighbor as yourself, you need no law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ive been saying that the laws of God that were seen within the law of Moses are eternal, even though the law of Moses itself, that was added until the Seed, has vanished away.

What is it about the law of Moses that makes an eternal law of God vanish away, while that exact same law remains forever outside of the law of Moses?

I really need to get to bed. Cook up an answer and we'll talk about it tomorrow.

 

[veryberry]

I agree that we are dead to the law. That is what scripture says.
Not sure what you mean by utilizing the law....

We are made dead to sin, meaning our relationship to sin is dead. But sin is not dead to us. We still have sin in our members.

Rom 7:5 - For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death

The law brings sins into motions.

Rom 7:7 -What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet
Rom 7:8 -But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead
Rom 7:9 -For I was alive without the law once:but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died

Without the law, sin in our members is dead, but the moment we try to use the law to live a pleasing life to God, sin in our members is revived and our functional christian life(the way we should live) is dead and we are allowing sin to reign in our lives. God does not want us to live our lives under a law, because we will constantly see that sin in our members and sin is not dead to us. But sin shall not have dominion over us, for we are dead to sin and alive unto God and we should reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin.

 

[JLB]

JLB, what you need to do tonight is be ready tomorrow to explain why Paul needs to tell us that 'love your neighbor as yourself' is the fulfillment of the law of Moses if the law of Moses is now utterly obsolete as you have been defining that. What does it matter that we fulfill a law that you say is so utterly obsolete?

Now I said "utterly obsolete".

Obsolete.

The reason I say obsolete is because the bible says obsolete.

Now you get to explain how the word UNTIL, means the thing that occurred, continues to occur, after the the time until indicates.


Webster says -

2until
conjunction
: up to the time or point that

Full Definition of UNTIL
: up to the time that : up to such time as <play continued until it got dark> <never able to relax until he took up fishing> <ran until she was breathless>
See until defined for English-language learners »
Examples of UNTIL

1. We played until it got dark.
2. Keep going until I tell you to stop.
3. I ran until I was breathless.
4. Stay here until the danger has passed.
5. Stir the dough until it forms a ball.

the law was added until...the Seed should come.

the law and the prophets were until John, since that time, the kingdom of God is preached.


Or you can just simply hear what Paul said -


Tell me, you who desire to be under the law...

do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- Galatians 4:21-24


For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

What is it about the law of Moses that makes an eternal law of God vanish away,

I really hope we can have a civil discussion without you twisting and changing what I have said.

So far I have let you get away with a little, like your reference to "law haters", of which I see Deb didn't appreciate.

I will not hesitate to report your post's if you try to degenerate this thread into another one that will get closed as you see your position crumbling underneath you again, and you only hope is get the thread closed.

Everyone by now knows where I stand.

The law of Moses was temporary.

The law of God is eternal.


The law of Moses was a sub-covenant [for lack of better term] that was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed should come.

Now the sames laws of God that were in force before the law was added, continue to remain in force today.

What has vanished away is the law of Moses, that was added.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

We are made dead to sin, meaning our relationship to sin is dead. But sin is not dead to us. We still have sin in our members.

Rom 7:5 - For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death

The law brings sins into motions.

Rom 7:7 -What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet
Rom 7:8 -But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead
Rom 7:9 -For I was alive without the law once:but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died

Without the law, sin in our members is dead, but the moment we try to use the law to live a pleasing life to God, sin in our members is revived and our functional christian life(the way we should live) is dead and we are allowing sin to reign in our lives. God does not want us to live our lives under a law, because we will constantly see that sin in our members and sin is not dead to us. But sin shall not have dominion over us, for we are dead to sin and alive unto God and we should reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin.

I agree.

 

[Deborah13]

I really hope we can have a civil discussion without you twisting and changing what I have said.

So far I have let you get away with a little, like your reference to "law haters", of which I see Deb didn't appreciate.

I will not hesitate to report your post's if you try to degenerate this thread into another one that will get closed as you see your position crumbling underneath you again, and you only hope is get the thread closed.

Everyone by now knows where I stand.

The law of Moses was temporary.

The law of God is eternal.


The law of Moses was a sub-covenant [for lack of better term] that was added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed should come.

Now the sames laws of God that were in force before the law was added, continue to remain in force today.

What has vanished away is the law of Moses, that was added.

JLB

Oh boy, do I ever really hate to bring this up with you but.......
YLT
2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient to be ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.
2Co 3:7 and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look stedfastly to the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face--which was being made useless,
KJV
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
>
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The only letter written and engraven in stone was the 10 Commandments.

Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deu 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I .....

 

[ezrider]

We are made dead to sin, meaning our relationship to sin is dead. But sin is not dead to us. We still have sin in our members.

Rom 7:5 - For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death

The law brings sins into motions.

Rom 7:7 -What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet
Rom 7:8 -But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead
Rom 7:9 -For I was alive without the law once:but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died

Without the law, sin in our members is dead, but the moment we try to use the law to live a pleasing life to God, sin in our members is revived and our functional christian life(the way we should live) is dead and we are allowing sin to reign in our lives. God does not want us to live our lives under a law, because we will constantly see that sin in our members and sin is not dead to us. But sin shall not have dominion over us, for we are dead to sin and alive unto God and we should reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin.

I agree.

I'll second that.