LAW

[JLB]

....AFTER husband flesh has died. It is then, and only then, that we are free to marry Christ. Read the text.

Brother, I read the text -

We are not married to the flesh, the text does not say this.

We are married to Him who was raised from the dead.


4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Israel was married to the Lord, as He was their Husband. -

“not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.Jeremiah 31:32


Once again, Paul is specifically addressing in this part of his letter, those who know the law.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? Romans 7:1

He is using the law to teach them this analogy that they are no longer bound by the law, for they are now married to the One who was raised from the dead.


For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. Romans 7:2


Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ...

dead to the law...

Redeemed from the law...

Free from the law...

No longer bound by the law...

The Lord who gave Israel the law, died [His Body] on the cross...

Israel's Covenant [ Analogy: marriage covenant] at Sinai and her obligation to the covenant died when The Lord's Body died.

Now the dividing wall of separation has be removed [ the Lord's flesh body], and Gentiles are now free to be partakers.

We are now married to the One who is raised from the dead, through the New Covenant.


We have never been "married" to the flesh.

We were born with a flesh and blood body.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law causes no sin....we do. The law has no power and requires a power source(our flesh). But in our flesh dwelleth no good thing and the law is weak through the flesh.

You are confusing me. What is it exactly about the law that you are resisting?

 

[ezrider]

You are confusing me. What is it exactly about the law that you are resisting?

Knowledge. It is your knowledge of the Law that reveals sin. Everything that has been debated here is about knowledge, and knowledge can only reveal death. You continue to pluck the fruit off of the tree of knowledge, and then debate whatever you think that piece of fruit revealed to you. But in the end, all you have is the fruit plucked from the tree of knowledge. But we are not asked to live by knowledge, we are asked to live by faith where we are made partakers with the tree of life. The depths of understanding that faith reveals through the tree of life is so much more profound then any piece of knowledge gained by eating from the tree of knowledge.

You stand at the foot of the mountain and debate the words from on high; the law that came down from the mountain that could not be touched. The knowledge of the law, the knowledge of sin, the knowledge of your own death. But Jesus told you that if you had faith the size of a mustard seed, that you could say to that mountain be thou removed, and it shall be removed. By Faith, that mountain no longer stands in my way.

 

[ezrider]

To say that we establish the righteousness of the law through faith is an incorrect statement. Through faith we establish the righteousness of God without the law, and the law and the prophet bear witness of this righteousness by faith without the law.

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:for there is no difference.

 

[JLB]

ezrider said -

Knowledge. It is your knowledge of the Law that reveals sin. Everything that has been debated here is about knowledge, and knowledge can only reveal death. You continue to pluck the fruit off of the tree of knowledge, and then debate whatever you think that piece of fruit revealed to you. But in the end, all you have is the fruit plucked from the tree of knowledge. But we are not asked to live by knowledge, we are asked to live by faith where we are made partakers with the tree of life.

Excellent!

Very well worded!

Saul of Tarsus and the Pharisee's who murdered the Son of God, revealed to us that having knowledge of the law only was indeed antichrist, that is to say a knowledge of good and evil without God Himself.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To say that we establish the righteousness of the law through faith is an incorrect statement.

Okay....

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31 NASB)

Hmmm....plainly says we establish the law through faith.

Through faith we establish the righteousness of God without the law, and the law and the prophet bear witness of this righteousness by faith without the law.

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:for there is no difference.

Here is the fuller context of what you quoted:

"20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:20-24 NASB)

It's easy to see he's saying that it is apart from the law that we are declared righteous..you know...justified. It is by faith in Christ, not by doing works of the law, that we receive a right standing with God. Nobody argues this point. We all know this.

What the church resists is that Paul then says on the heels of this that it is through this righteousness secured by faith (not by doing the law) that we then uphold this law that could not justify, not nullify it: :

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith?May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:28-31 NASB)

He demonstrates this truth later in the letter when he says this:

"...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NASB)

Through our righteousness--the righteousness secured by faith in Christ, not by doing works of the law--we fulfill the law of Moses ('do not steal', etc.).

The church has been so ingrained by an erroneous doctrine of law that they simply won't let themselves see that their faith in Christ upholds and fulfills the law of Moses, not nullifies it in favor of a different law, or no law at all (for those who argue that point).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...we are not asked to live by knowledge, we are asked to live by faith where we are made partakers with the tree of life. The depths of understanding that faith reveals through the tree of life is so much more profound then any piece of knowledge gained by eating from the tree of knowledge.

Then I ask you. Why then do the NT writers instruct via knowledge (do this, don't do that...)? And they do that in very lengthy passages of scripture. If this is wrong and futile, why do they do it and do it with God's approval? Is living by faith somehow not reading words of instruction and then seeking to fulfill them by the power of faith in Christ's forgiveness?

 

[Deborah13]

I'm not twisting anything.

You say that 'love your neighbor as yourself' is an eternal law of God that existed outside of, and before, and after the law of Moses. I agree. But you say the exact same law in the law of Moses has vanished away. How does that work?

The US Constitution to God's Eternal Law
State Constitution to Moses' Law

The State Constitution contains all the same law as the US Cont. and things that are particular to that state. If the State Constitution was be made obsolete it would not change or make the US Constitution
obsolete. Even if the exact same people wrote both constitutions.

I'm baiting. If you would just honestly answer your own argument you'd see that what passed away was the WAY of the law of Moses, not the righteousness of the law of Moses. That still gets fulfilled/ upheld/ satisfied to this very day, but in the new way of the Spirit of God and faith in Christ. This was God's promise, that the day would come when he would move us to keep his law, not discard it in favor of some other law.

Even though there was nothing unjust or unrighteous in that state constitution it can be made obsolete without making it unjust (unrighteous).
The righteousness (justness) of Moses' Law cannot be made obsolete, why would anyone even say that? That's ridiculous and bizarre, no God given law is ever unrighteous.

I agree with you that through Christ the Righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us by being in Christ.
First by us being justified and sanctified by Him. We received the Holy Spirit which enables us to live righteously. As we grow in the Lord we become more and more aware of the righteousness that He has written on our hearts, His law for all believers in Him. I believe that all the law that we need to know Jesus told us simply in two commandments, Love God and Love others as yourself. When we do the second it pleases God, fulfilling the first.
Jesus said to the disciples 'Love others as I have loved you.' That is a tall order.

Be careful. I did not call either one of you law haters. It would be very dishonest of you and Deborah to say I'm calling you law haters here: "I know this is not going to be easy for you, or a lot of other people indoctrinated by centuries of law hating babble."

I never said you were calling me personally a law hater.

You and Deborah did not invent this law hating babble. You and Deborah probably don't know the history of the church, but it is Jew/ law haters that developed the erroneous doctrines of the law of Moses that we have all innocently been indoctrinated with. Thankfully, we have the written word of God to expose that error. But the church is so saddled with this indoctrination that most firmly resist the plain words of Paul that says when we walk in our faith we are actually upholding and fulfilling the law of Moses, not getting rid of it!

To me, there is a difference between fulfilling the old covenant and the 'righteousness' of that covenant being fulfilled IN me by the Holy Spirit. The righteousness of that covenant is the righteousness of Christ.

What vanished away was the law of Moses in regard to literal first covenant worship, not the law of Moses in regard to 'love your neighbor as yourself'. More can be added to that but I think this will suffice for now.

Show me a scripture that says the ceremonial laws were made obsolete but the rest remains in effect.
I believe it is in Galatians were Paul says to them, they had been listening to false teachers, and he says, paraphrased, "If you put yourself under the law (nomos) you are obligated to DO it."
In Galatians 5, thank you for providing the scripture, Paul says, 'when we love one another we fulfill the law. Well, what is he talking about. Romans tells us what Paul meant, 'the Righteousness of the Law.' Not the old covenant but the 'righteousness' of the old covenant.
That is why I say, I, being born after the cross and not being a member of the nation of Israel during the time that old covenant was in effect I am not under the old covenant and never have been. But the righteousness of that covenant, God's righteousness could judge me to be a sinner needing a Redeemer. Before I received the Lord was I considered to be a sinner because I didn't eat kosher? No and No. The very first accusation the law could have against me is that I did not recognize the Messiah as my Lord and Redeemer, I didn't have an atonement for my sin committed against God.

I know how forums work. Even if I wanted to call you a law hater I would not knowing the mods would be all over it in a sec. So just relax and answer my question at the beginning of this post if you want to take the time to explain your doctrine. That's what this forum is for. This is a designated place for that very purpose. And everybody is here voluntarily.

I thank God for this forum where we are allowed to share what we see in the scriptures and to learn from others.
Oh and by the way, please give me some guidance in what you are talking about when you say 'the history of the Jew/haters in the church. If your going to bring it up please give supporting evidence. A website link or book or something.
I was not raised in any church. Before I received the gospel I attended the RCC for a time. Then after I heard it for about three months, I attended a Baptist church. Since then I have always attended either AoG or Pentecostal Holiness churches and as you know they love to preach the law. I can assure you that I have never been indoctrinate by any law haters or Jew haters.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Saul of Tarsus and the Pharisee's who murdered the Son of God, revealed to us that having knowledge of the law only was indeed antichrist, that is to say a knowledge of good and evil without God Himself.

Hmm....'having knowledge of the law ONLY'.

You do know that's what I've been saying the old WAY of the law is, right? You do know this, right?

And it is through this new way that we then uphold the righteous requirements of the law of Moses. But to so many, they can only hear that as 'works gospel', and they reject it out of hand. I wish more people in the church would have the courage to challenge this indoctrination in the church and eat of this so-called forbidden fruit of knowledge and wise up a bit.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The US Constitution to God's Eternal Law
State Constitution to Moses' Law

The State Constitution contains all the same law as the US Cont. and things that are particular to that state. If the State Constitution was be made obsolete it would not change or make the US Constitution
obsolete. Even if the exact same people wrote both constitutions.

So, does this mean if I 'do not steal' according to the jurisdiction of the eternal law of God I have not satisfied the 'do not steal' in the law of Moses? I can in no way say I have satisfied the law of Moses?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother, I read the text -

We are not married to the flesh, the text does not say this.

We are married to Him who was raised from the dead.


4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound..." (Romans 7:5-6 NASB)

That which we were bound to that bore the fruit of death in us were our sinful passions. The law acted like a marriage license that held us fast in that relationship with sinful flesh because it aroused and enforced our love affair with sin.

But by dying to what once held us (sinful passions of the flesh) we get released from the power and authority of the law to hold us fast in that relationship with sin. Why? Because a marriage can only be enforced by law as long as both parties are alive. "I am speaking to those who know the law..." (vs. 1).

The law can only arouse and enforce an existing relationship between sin and a person as long as they both--sin and the person--are alive. In Christ the body of sin is put to death, therefore, the law can no longer legislate and enforce a marriage with sinful flesh that does not exist anymore.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The US Constitution to God's Eternal Law
State Constitution to Moses' Law

The State Constitution contains all the same law as the US Cont. and things that are particular to that state. If the State Constitution was be made obsolete it would not change or make the US Constitution
obsolete. Even if the exact same people wrote both constitutions.



Even though there was nothing unjust or unrighteous in that state constitution it can be made obsolete without making it unjust (unrighteous).
The righteousness (justness) of Moses' Law cannot be made obsolete, why would anyone even say that? That's ridiculous and bizarre, no God given law is ever unrighteous.

I agree with you that through Christ the Righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us by being in Christ.
First by us being justified and sanctified by Him. We received the Holy Spirit which enables us to live righteously. As we grow in the Lord we become more and more aware of the righteousness that He has written on our hearts, His law for all believers in Him. I believe that all the law that we need to know Jesus told us simply in two commandments, Love God and Love others as yourself. When we do the second it pleases God, fulfilling the first.
Jesus said to the disciples 'Love others as I have loved you.' That is a tall order.


I never said you were calling me personally a law hater.


To me, there is a difference between fulfilling the old covenant and the 'righteousness' of that covenant being fulfilled IN me by the Holy Spirit. The righteousness of that covenant is the righteousness of Christ.

Show me a scripture that says the ceremonial laws were made obsolete but the rest remains in effect.
I believe it is in Galatians were Paul says to them, they had been listening to false teachers, and he says, paraphrased, "If you put yourself under the law (nomos) you are obligated to DO it."
In Galatians 5, thank you for providing the scripture, Paul says, 'when we love one another we fulfill the law. Well, what is he talking about. Romans tells us what Paul meant, 'the Righteousness of the Law.' Not the old covenant but the 'righteousness' of the old covenant.
That is why I say, I, being born after the cross and not being a member of the nation of Israel during the time that old covenant was in effect I am not under the old covenant and never have been. But the righteousness of that covenant, God's righteousness could judge me to be a sinner needing a Redeemer. Before I received the Lord was I considered to be a sinner because I didn't eat kosher? No and No. The very first accusation the law could have against me is that I did not recognize the Messiah as my Lord and Redeemer, I didn't have an atonement for my sin committed against God.

I thank God for this forum where we are allowed to share what we see in the scriptures and to learn from others.
Oh and by the way, please give me some guidance in what you are talking about when you say 'the history of the Jew/haters in the church. If your going to bring it up please give supporting evidence. A website link or book or something.
I was not raised in any church. Before I received the gospel I attended the RCC for a time. Then after I heard it for about three months, I attended a Baptist church. Since then I have always attended either AoG or Pentecostal Holiness churches and as you know they love to preach the law. I can assure you that I have never been indoctrinate by any law haters or Jew haters.

Deborah, I've only read the very thing in your post.

I don't have time to finish it now, but I will.

 

[ezrider]

Then I ask you. Why then do the NT writers instruct via knowledge (do this, don't do that...)? And they do that in very lengthy passages of scripture. If this is wrong and futile, why do they do it and do it with God's approval? Is living by faith somehow not reading words of instruction and then seeking to fulfill them by the power of faith in Christ's forgiveness?

Why did Jesus speak in parables and not speak plainly?

Mathew 13:10-15 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance:but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables:because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

2 Cor 3:14-16 But their minds were blinded:for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

I would say it was done with God's approval.

 

[reba]

Which side of this long long on going battle breaks any of the TEN with intent?
Which side sets out to dishonor God, Mom and Dad, murder someone etc?
Which side does not believe we are saved by Grace.
Which side thinks we can never break one+ of those Laws
Which side believes keeping them in the natural man will save them.
neither right so what is the battle?

Not a snarky question guys a real one...

 

[JLB]

Hmm....'having knowledge of the law ONLY'.

You do know that's what I've been saying the old WAY of the law is, right? You do know this, right?

And it is through this new way that we then uphold the righteous requirements of the law of Moses. But to so many, they can only hear that as 'works gospel', and they reject it out of hand. I wish more people in the church would have the courage to challenge this indoctrination in the church and eat of this so-called forbidden fruit of knowledge and wise up a bit.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10 NASB)

Jethro said -

You do know that's what I've been saying the old WAY of the law is, right? You do know this, right?

Because you still cling to the law of Moses which was never for the nations, and was temporary.

So what you say and what you mean become convoluted, and rejected by the very people you are trying to reach.

And it is through this new way that we then uphold the righteous requirements of the law of Moses.

The righteous requirements such as the ten commandments, that were God's eternal commandments before the law was added, then yes!

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10 NASB)

Knowledge of the Holy One, which means knowing God.


Saul of Tarsus had [head] knowledge of the scriptures, the Apostle Paul knew Jesus Christ and had the Spirit of Knowledge within him.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Which side of this long long on going battle breaks any of the TEN with intent?
Which side sets out to dishonor God, Mom and Dad, murder someone etc?
Which side does not believe we are saved by Grace.
Which side thinks we can never break one+ of those Laws
Which side believes keeping them in the natural man will save them.
neither right so what is the battle?

Not a snarky question guys a real one...

The side that teaches us that the WAY we keep God's Commandments NOW, is faith in Jesus Christ, rather than the old way which is to literally obey them.


JLB

 

[reba]

Both sides teach that JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The righteousness (justness) of Moses' Law cannot be made obsolete, why would anyone even say that? That's ridiculous and bizarre, no God given law is ever unrighteous.

And so it's easy to see that when righteous people act righteously they don't nullify the righteousness of God's laws in the law of Moses, they uphold them. The very thing Paul said.

I agree with you that through Christ the Righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us by being in Christ.

Maybe you can help JLB see that.

I believe that all the law that we need to know Jesus told us simply in two commandments, Love God and Love others as yourself.

Then why do the NT writers teach us so many others? I submit to you that it isn't that these are the only two commandments we need to know about, but the only two commandments that summarize all the others.

When we do the second it pleases God, fulfilling the first.

I never said you were calling me personally a law hater.

Now that you mention it, you're right. You did not like me calling our church fathers law haters. JLB is the one who took it personally. Thank you for pointing that out.

To me, there is a difference between fulfilling the old covenant and the 'righteousness' of that covenant being fulfilled IN me by the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps it's the difference between fulfilling the letter of the law of Moses, and fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law of Moses which may, or may not be fulfilled according to the letter of the law of Moses, but a fulfillment, nonetheless.

Show me a scripture that says the ceremonial laws were made obsolete but the rest remains in effect.

Read Hebrews 4 for the part about a rest remaining. But don't misunderstand. The author is not talking about a literal Mosaic Sabbath still in effect.

And I'm guessing the ceremonial laws being made obsolete is not the part you contend with, right? But anyway, that is explained in Hebrews 8, 9, and 10.

I believe it is in Galatians were Paul says to them, they had been listening to false teachers, and he says, paraphrased, "If you put yourself under the law (nomos) you are obligated to DO it."

It's important to read carefully. You are obligated to do all of it if you keep the law for the purpose of trying to be justified by the law of Moses, not if you simply feel compelled by conscience that various first covenant ceremonial laws must be kept as the expected outcome of having faith in God. If that's hard to understand, just consider how we think it necessary to 'not murder', but hardly mean that to say we have to keep that command in order to be justified, but only in regard to that being the expected outcome of having faith in Christ. That's a very important point that gets missed in Paul's law/grace teaching. The prohibition is against trying to be justified by the law of Moses, not against keeping it for any and all reasons.

In Galatians 5, thank you for providing the scripture, Paul says, 'when we love one another we fulfill the law. Well, what is he talking about. Romans tells us what Paul meant, 'the Righteousness of the Law.' Not the old covenant but the 'righteousness' of the old covenant.

Basically what I've been saying all along.

That is why I say, I, being born after the cross and not being a member of the nation of Israel during the time that old covenant was in effect I am not under the old covenant and never have been.

I agree. When we talk about the before and after of the old covenant it is in regard to the people of God as a whole in all of history, not as you say in regard to individual circumstances.

I thank God for this forum where we are allowed to share what we see in the scriptures and to learn from others.

I have learn tons in forums. When we discuss the scriptures it inspires us to greater insights about the word. I have learned much from my Messianic brethren that way. They are the ones who made me see the plain words of scripture right under my nose that I couldn't see that it is not the law that was the bad guy, but we sinners.

Oh and by the way, please give me some guidance in what you are talking about when you say 'the history of the Jew/haters in the church. If your going to bring it up please give supporting evidence. A website link or book or something.

That'll take a little work. I have not visited that topic in several years. If I remember correctly, it all started with the church separating itself from Jewish believers to avoid being persecuted with them (about 135 AD?). They used their freedom from the method and time table of first covenant worship to worship in a way that spared them the persecution the Jewish believers were enduring. By the third and fourth centuries Mosaic law keeping for any and all reasons was officially outlawed by the church.

I was not raised in any church. Before I received the gospel I attended the RCC for a time. Then after I heard it for about three months, I attended a Baptist church. Since then I have always attended either AoG or Pentecostal Holiness churches and as you know they love to preach the law. I can assure you that I have never been indoctrinate by any law haters or Jew haters.

I honestly think you will be surprised at how even they have been indoctrinated by the official stance on the law the church established long ago. Church forefathers introduced a fundamental error of understanding of Paul's law/grace teaching that affects us all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which side of this long long on going battle breaks any of the TEN with intent?
Which side sets out to dishonor God, Mom and Dad, murder someone etc?
Which side does not believe we are saved by Grace.
Which side thinks we can never break one+ of those Laws
Which side believes keeping them in the natural man will save them.
neither right so what is the battle?

Not a snarky question guys a real one...

This fundamental error about Paul's teaching about grace/works is the basis for other erroneous doctrines in the church. Doctrines concerning serious life and death matters, not just matters of curiosity. It's interesting that when those doctrines get addressed defenders of those doctrines sooner or later run back to the safety of the erroneous beliefs about Paul's grace/works teaching.

I actually believe God has allowed the church to get so confabulated about the law, just as he allowed the split in the kingdom after Solomon (the split off part of Israel then ruining Mosaic worship of God). Perhaps God has allowed this to provoke the Jews to righteous indignation and envy for the God they have become separated from(?) Look what damage we have done to their law. What Jew would not burn with anger at what we have done?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Both sides teach that JLB

So true. I don't know how anyone could misunderstand that.