Mary was born with a sinful nature.

[jasonc]

Hey

Something to consider...

Adam and Eve were ignorant of good and evil, that's what made them sinless. It's the state of innocence we should be considering here. It's not that they couldn't sin. They showed us that they were very capable of sinning. But with that one sin, (eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil), they also lost there innocent state. Maybe that's what we inherit.

Babies are born in this same state of innocence. God calls them innocent, not knowing their left from their right. Jewish tradition teaches that a child loses this state of innocence at age thirteen. 'Bar mitzvah' means son of the Law. "Bat mitzva" for woman. At that point, without the proper faith, they are considered lost. I believe that the correct biblical understanding is a state of innocence is that it depends on ones condition, not ones age.

Macarthur did a few good sermons on this topic called "the salvation of babies who die" Parts 1 and 2.

Just for the record, and for what it's worth, I believe that Jewish tradition teaches this sinful nature is passed down through man's seed. I could be wrong on the source though. I believe that idea may be more like a teaching tool. While technically true, it points to spiritual truth. I don't know.

I'm sure the death blow is being born with what will eventually be the knowledge of good and evil.

When? Kids grow up fast these days, so, I suppose it's different for everybody. Some mentally handicapped people may never reach that condition.

Out of time.

Dave

Mitzvah I will ask family .it implies a coming of age you know the Torah and can be held to it.

 

[tdidymas]

Hey

Something to consider...

Adam and Eve were ignorant of good and evil, that's what made them sinless. It's the state of innocence we should be considering here. It's not that they couldn't sin. They showed us that they were very capable of sinning. But with that one sin, (eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil), they also lost there innocent state. Maybe that's what we inherit.

Babies are born in this same state of innocence. God calls them innocent, not knowing their left from their right. Jewish tradition teaches that a child loses this state of innocence at age thirteen. 'Bar mitzvah' means son of the Law. "Bat mitzva" for woman. At that point, without the proper faith, they are considered lost. I believe that the correct biblical understanding is a state of innocence is that it depends on ones condition, not ones age.

Macarthur did a few good sermons on this topic called "the salvation of babies who die" Parts 1 and 2.

Just for the record, and for what it's worth, I believe that Jewish tradition teaches this sinful nature is passed down through man's seed. I could be wrong on the source though. I believe that idea may be more like a teaching tool. While technically true, it points to spiritual truth. I don't know.

I'm sure the death blow is being born with what will eventually be the knowledge of good and evil.

When? Kids grow up fast these days, so, I suppose it's different for everybody. Some mentally handicapped people may never reach that condition.

Out of time.

Dave

No, innocence didn't make them sinless. Children can commit sins in their ignorance and innocence, anyone can see that just by observing children over time. Children have to be taught righteousness; but they don't have to be taught to sin, since it is in their nature. Therefore, the nature of man changed after the fall. Before the fall, Adam and Eve were able to sin, but they were able also to refrain from it. But no one after the fall has been able to refrain from sinning, so says Paul in Romans and elsewhere. In 2 Tim, he says that Eve was deceived (and is the reason why she sinned), but Adam was not deceived (in which his reason is not known). Therefore, Adam is the only man who existed who sinned from a sinless state. Note also that only after Adam ate the forbidden fruit that "they knew they were naked." So the implication is that spiritual responsibility was on Adam's shoulders.

 

[Dave...]

No, innocence didn't make them sinless. Children can commit sins in their ignorance and innocence, anyone can see that just by observing children over time. Children have to be taught righteousness; but they don't have to be taught to sin, since it is in their nature. Therefore, the nature of man changed after the fall. Before the fall, Adam and Eve were able to sin, but they were able also to refrain from it. But no one after the fall has been able to refrain from sinning, so says Paul in Romans and elsewhere. In 2 Tim, he says that Eve was deceived (and is the reason why she sinned), but Adam was not deceived (in which his reason is not known). Therefore, Adam is the only man who existed who sinned from a sinless state. Note also that only after Adam ate the forbidden fruit that "they knew they were naked." So the implication is that spiritual responsibility was on Adam's shoulders.

Hey T

I like to think of it as more of the motive, not the act that makes it sin. They knew it was wrong because God told them not to do it. They were capable of sinning all the time. The fall definitely had an effect. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is significant.

I think that I derailed my own thread. I was just kind of thinking out loud, I guess.

Like...

Jesus, being God, always knew good from evil. I believe that His being born of a virgin did not just need to happen because of OT prophecy, but also the effects of the fall also. It would have corrupted Him somehow.

There is a physical element to this sinful nature. We see the effects right away. If Adam had not sinned, He would have lived forever physically. Jesus, in His incarnation, the same. If He wasn't murdered, He would have physically never died. He had no corruption, thus none of the effects, namely, death. After Adam sinned, the effects on mankind were minimal. They lived to be nine hundred years old back then. By the time Moses comes on the scene, the Law was being applied to curb the effects of sin. As someone stated earlier, DNA, when similar, produces more birth defects. We see this with the Amish where they have small communities. They actively adopt outsiders to curb the effects of the fall on their small communities by introducing new DNA. So the effects of the fall are getting worse. We are dying as a race. But the world is telling us we are getting better all time by way of evolution.

So anyway, Mary, receiving the news that she had found favor with God and would carry and raise the Messiah, Knew she was a sinner and thanked God for her Savior.

out of time again

 

[hawkman]

It's part of the curse of the fall, in addition to thorns and thistles in the land.

Let me see , ok I found the verse in Genesis for " thorns and thistles " .

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Therefore, God put sin in the body as an obstacle to righteousness, so that man would discover his need to trust God.

Now here is where I need your help tdidymas , I found a verse with the curse of death in Genesis 3:19 but no mention of God putting sin in the body . Where is that verse in Genesis ?

 

[hawkman]

Means favored one. All Christians are favroed.

Yes , favored one . When did Mary become a Christian ? She was favored before she became a Christian .

 

[tdidymas]

Hey T

I like to think of it as more of the motive, not the act that makes it sin. They knew it was wrong because God told them not to do it. They were capable of sinning all the time. The fall definitely had an effect. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is significant.

I think that I derailed my own thread. I was just kind of thinking out loud, I guess.

Like...

Jesus, being God, always knew good from evil. I believe that His being born of a virgin did not just need to happen because of OT prophecy, but also the effects of the fall also. It would have corrupted Him somehow.

There is a physical element to this sinful nature. We see the effects right away. If Adam had not sinned, He would have lived forever physically. Jesus, in His incarnation, the same. If He wasn't murdered, He would have physically never died. He had no corruption, thus none of the effects, namely, death. After Adam sinned, the effects on mankind were minimal. They lived to be nine hundred years old back then. By the time Moses comes on the scene, the Law was being applied to curb the effects of sin. As someone stated earlier, DNA, when similar, produces more birth defects. We see this with the Amish where they have small communities. They actively adopt outsiders to curb the effects of the fall on their small communities by introducing new DNA. So the effects of the fall are getting worse. We are dying as a race. But the world is telling us we are getting better all time by way of evolution.

So anyway, Mary, receiving the news that she had found favor with God and would carry and raise the Messiah, Knew she was a sinner and thanked God for her Savior.

out of time again

One more thing, the "knowledge of good and evil" has more to do with determining it, than mere cognitive knowing. When God said "they have become like Us," he was talking about independent autonomy. Since people are born independent from God (that's what "free will" means), they determine for themselves what is good and evil, and so it conflicts with God's will, and that's the essence of sin. What Jesus accomplished is our reconciliation with God (on the spiritual level), which motivates us to please God by faith.

 

[tdidymas]

Let me see , ok I found the verse in Genesis for " thorns and thistles " .

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;


Now here is where I need your help tdidymas , I found a verse with the curse of death in Genesis 3:19 but no mention of God putting sin in the body . Where is that verse in Genesis ?

Gen. 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." This proves that sin, resulting in death, is in the body, and concurs with Paul saying "the body is dead because of sin" in Rom. 8:10.

 

[hawkman]

Gen. 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." This proves that sin, resulting in death, is in the body, and concurs with Paul saying "the body is dead because of sin" in Rom. 8:10.

And we see the curse of death placed upon Adam and the humans to follow in Genesis 3:19 . Proves sin is in the body ? Nah . In fact I don't see the word sin in Genesis 3:19

If sin was not embedded in the body (DNA),

Who's body was first embedded with sin and when did that happen ?

Human nature .

 

[electedbyHim]

Yes , favored one . When did Mary become a Christian ? She was favored before she became a Christian .

But was she sinless?

 

[hawkman]

But was she sinless?

Sounds like a topic for a new thread .

 

[electedbyHim]

Sounds like a topic for a new thread .

Its part of the topic and sin nature.

Let me rephrase.

Was Mary born sinless?

 

[hawkman]

Was Mary born sinless?

I don't believe you can commit sins before you are born , do you ?

 

[electedbyHim]

I don't believe you can commit sins before you are born , do you ?

Dodged the question with a question.

 

[hawkman]

Dodged the question with a question.

Mary committed no sins before she was born !

 

[electedbyHim]

Mary committed no sins before she was born !

She was born into sin.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

Was mary sinless after birth?

 

[hawkman]

She was born into sin.

Mary was born into a sinful world as we all are and Jesus was too .

Was mary sinless after birth?

She was sinless before birth and remained sinless unless she sinned after her birth .

You can list Mary's sins from the KJV if you would like .

 

[electedbyHim]

Mary was born into a sinful world as we all are and Jesus was too .

She was sinless before birth and remained sinless unless she sinned after her birth .

You can list Mary's sins from the KJV if you would like .

Any Scriptures to prove she was sinless before birth?

So she was sinless in your opinion, that would make her equal with Christ.

Just because her sins are not in the Bible does not prove she was sinless.

I am not a KJV only as the version is not that reliable from my researches, although I love the language of it.

 

[Dave...]

One more thing, the "knowledge of good and evil" has more to do with determining it, than mere cognitive knowing. When God said "they have become like Us," he was talking about independent autonomy. Since people are born independent from God (that's what "free will" means), they determine for themselves what is good and evil, and so it conflicts with God's will, and that's the essence of sin. What Jesus accomplished is our reconciliation with God (on the spiritual level), which motivates us to please God by faith.

Hey T

This idea, of innocence from ignorance is taught at different levels all through scripture. I believe that aside from what they were told not to do, Adam and Eve were in this state of innocence. When they sinned, they were made aware "Who told you that you were naked?". Aware of good and evil. This made them more accountable.

This idea, in a smaller context, can be seen when Paul tells us...I'll use his words...

Romans 7:7-11 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

Also, in judging others in something, we are giving evidence that we know it's sin, and "knowing" this makes us accountable to God if we are also guilty of doing that same sin...

Matthew 7:1-2 "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

The Salvation of Babies Who Die, Part 1

Some of you who tuned in to The Larry King Show a week ago Saturday will remember that Larry fired a question to me on the air that came out of nowhere, a question that reveals a nagging,

www.gty.org

The Salvation of Babies Who Die, Part 2

This is Part Two of a subject that I began last Sunday night, “The Salvation of Babies Who Die.” I’m very thankful and gratified for the response that I have received to Part One. Last Sund

www.gty.org

Dave

 

[hawkman]

Any Scriptures to prove she was sinless before birth?

Her sins in the womb , you are kidding me .

So she was sinless in your opinion, that would make her equal with Christ.

You are the one who if finding Mary guilty of sinning , from the moment of conception no less , without a shred of proof to offer .

When we become a Christian are we not suppose to become Christ like , but of course we are not equal with Christ .

 

[hawkman]

When they sinned, they were made aware "Who told you that you were naked?". Aware of good and evil.

Now you certainly have busted open a can of worms .

Was it evil for Adam and Eve to be naked before God ?