Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Endtime_Survivors]

Hi Reba. The thread has moved rather quickly so perhaps this question is no longer relevant, but I'm still curious as to why you felt adding "the" to "great tribulation" is an issue. Is it just the idea of "adding to the word" that bothered you, or did it have something to do with your stance on the pre-trib rapture theory?

 

[Sinthesis]

Rev 18:20 - Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

 

[jasonc]

I don't see the apostles that are to come, it doesn't say that, with my understanding of it.
Rejoice thou heaven....
New Jerusalem, comes down..Rev.21:10-14
12 gates, names of the 12 tribes, patriarchs
12 foundations, names of the 12 Apostles
Rev.4:4-
And round about the throne were 24 seats, upon the seats I saw 24 elders sitting clothed in white raiment had on their heads crowns of gold.
This is in heaven.
I believe this to be the 12 Patriarchs and 12 Apostles

Good nite

Revelation 18 verse 20.is the whore of Babylon in the time of John or now?

 

[Cygnus]

Hi Cygnus
I see that scripture differently, as probably others see it different as you and I, lol
2Thess.2:1-9
We beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.
That day, shall not come, just one day here, first
falling away and the Son of perdition.
9, Even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan.
As in Matt.24:29-31
After the tribulation.....see the Son of man coming in the clouds, gather His Elect.
Back to 2Thess.2:6-8
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in His time, So called Anti Christ.
Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
It is a transit verb, back to the subject of the Son of perdition.
I believe this is referring to Michael, Rev.12:7-10
Michael boots Satan and his angels out.
2Thess.2:8
Then the Lord shall consume him with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.
Taken out of the way....

Yes, some do see Michael as the restrainer.

 

[Cygnus]

The restrainer is the son of perdition who is the false prophet, 2Thess 2:3-11. There is not just one antichrist as scripture says there are many and we know this will be the last one, 1John 2:18.

That doesn't seem right...he's restraining himself???

 

[Cygnus]

Jesus comes down once no further then the air which is the first heaven (atmosphere) where we meet Him in the air and then continues with us being that army from heaven (first heaven) and will fight the final battle with a sharp sword meaning His spoken words that smite the nations, Rev 19.

Problem is....the bible says Jesus will return in the same fashion as He left. In the clouds. When Jesus ascended into the clouds He wasn't riding a horse.

 

[smaller]

The pre-trib posture can be legitimately eliminated from many scriptural directions.

From a personal perspective in retrospect I wish I'd never heard of it (some long 3 or 4 DECADES) ago. Looking back it was just a waste of time to read all those "end time" sensationalist novels. IN many ways these are just escape from reality books that DO NOT HAVE BEARING on living our present life.

Yes, I have hope. What is my hope for? Those are the more legitimate questions to address.

Peter tells us clearly that judgment, yes, JUDGMENT begins with US. With believers, in the church.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

If there is any "order" to observe here, it is that we maybe should be expecting judgment rather than an escape clause. And that BEFORE the balance of the world. Just as Peter notes.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

The pre-trib posture can be legitimately eliminated from many scriptural directions.

From a personal perspective in retrospect I wish I'd never heard of it (some long 3 or 4 DECADES) ago. Looking back it was just a waste of time to read all those "end time" sensationalist novels. IN many ways these are just escape from reality books that DO NOT HAVE BEARING on living our present life.

Yes, I have hope. What is my hope for? Those are the more legitimate questions to address.

Peter tells us clearly that judgment, yes, JUDGMENT begins with US. With believers, in the church.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

If there is any "order" to observe here, it is that we maybe should be expecting judgment rather than an escape clause. And that BEFORE the balance of the world. Just as Peter notes.

Interesting perspective. Christians are called on to be witnesses to the world around us, to the point that we'd lay our lives down for the kingdom of Heaven because we have something worth dying for. What kind of testimony would it be if we all ran away when people in the world will need our example the most?

Thanks for sharing, smaller. I feel encouraged by your post.

 

[reba]

closed for some clean up

This thread is reopened.. .keep to the topic ... not running off into conspiracies .. Yes we know it is a fine line... so tip toe

Thanks guys

 

[for_his_glory]

The star can't be literal.why way before that it's said and the stars fell from heaven unto the earth.what star is so small that the earth is able to survive it and not able to rip apart our sin.the nearest star to us isn't just one star but two interlocked on a mission to destroy beach other no planets are in orbit of them.proxima will be destroyed by Ultima .we just call that alpha centaurI they orbit each other.

Take it literally will force you to acknowledge that syria was never judged,nor Phoenicia or edom as the same language is used.Nevermind this

And in the stars in their courses fought sisera.do you believe a star drew a sword and fought sisera on the earth?

The star can't be literal.why way before that it's said and the stars fell from heaven unto the earth.what star is so small that the earth is able to survive it and not able to rip apart our sin.the nearest star to us isn't just one star but two interlocked on a mission to destroy beach other no planets are in orbit of them.proxima will be destroyed by Ultima .we just call that alpha centaurI they orbit each other.

I'm not going to second guess what God will use and it says a burning star in Rev 8:10 that sounds literal to me.
Angels are sometimes referred to as stars or host of heaven who in this case by Gods command sent down thunder, lightning and hail stones, possibly mingled with blood as we read in Rev 8:7. The stars being angels were sent by God to help fight against Sisera.

Take it literally will force you to acknowledge that syria was never judged,nor Phoenicia or edom as the same language is used.Nevermind this

And in the stars in their courses fought sisera.do you believe a star drew a sword and fought sisera on the earth?

 

[markathome]

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
to see/to know~eido not~ou
that/because/since~hoti be, have been~este shrine/temple~naos Elohiym/God~theos

even/then/also~kai breath/wind/spirit~pneuma Elohiym/God~theos dwell~oikeo in/by/with~en you~humin

whoever/whatever~ei corrupt (self), defile, des...~phtheiro shrine/temple~naos Elohiym/God~theos

him, the same, that, this~touton corrupt (self), defile, des...~phtheiro Elohiym/God~theos

corrupt (self), defile, des...~phtheiro for~gar shrine/temple~naos Elohiym/God~theos

to be~esti sacred/consecrated~hagios

whoever/whatever/who~hostis you~humeis be, have been, belong~este

Elohiym/God in temple as example from OT temple
Spirit Elohiym/God dwell in you not in temple,
whoever corrupts temple Elohiym/God
him the same that corrupts Elohiym/God <--------
corrupt/defile self for temple Elohiym/God~theos
suppose to be sacred/consecrated whom you belong

I don't see the "him shall God destroy" from 1 Corinthians 3:17 at all here.
Taking the temple here and applying it to Prophecy is a step too far.

 

[reba]

Thanks for the spacing

 

[for_his_glory]

I see it more spiritually,people turn bitter...
Rev.8:10
There fell a great star from heaven..
As in another post, water represents people...
Rev.9:1
I saw a Star fall from heaven, to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev.9:11
And they had a king over them, fallen angels, which is the angel of the bottomless pit.....Apollyon which is Satan.
Luke 10:18,19
I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
I give you power to tread on serpents and scorpions
Rev.9:10
They had tails like scorpions...
Isa.14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning....morning star...

In Job 38:7
We have God speaking of Him making the foundations of the earth, we have..
When the Morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy...

Stars can be symbolic...
In Rev.22:16 states
Jesus is the bright and morning star...

Rev.12:1
Crown of 12 stars, this woman represents mother Israel.
Rev.12:4
The Dragon drew the third part of stars of heaven, angels...and cast them to the earth....

Just some of my views...

Some things especially in Rev can be symbolic where they need to be for us to have a deeper understanding of the literal. Just like it says in Rev 8:10,11 that this burning star literally fell upon one third of the rivers and fountains of waters and many men died from the waters for they were bitter. I had to look up the word wormwood to see what it was and that is why it says the waters are bitter. I think the fountains of water could be streams of water as many of us that use well water it comes from the surrounding streams in most cases.

that I think fountains could me streams

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 18:20

This must be in the past not to come.there's more on figurative language.hard to have a mountain moved out of a place and stars falling put of heaven literally and men Alive to repent

Starting with Isaiah 14:13,14 then Genesis 10:9,10 and Micah Chapter 5 who do you think it is that will work through the son of perdition to exalt himself and take his seat over the congregation on the sides of the north which is the very Temple mount where Gods glory once filled it , but now being the Dome of the Rock that is in Jerusalem and is even now being remodeled and soon to be handed over to the son of perdition who is the false prophet.

 

[for_his_glory]

No.show me the apostles then that are to come.you can't ignore Rev 18 verse 20 and claim that it's revised Roman Empire when the EU isn't going to last.the uk, which was part of the Roman Empire in Jesus day as Julius ceaser conquered it,will vOTE to leave the eu..

The apostles and prophets are those who God anoints to preach, as not everyone has that anointing, the Gospels during the timing of the seven trumpets sounding as they continue to preach to those who will have ears to hear and repent when they see so much devastation from Gods chastisements. The apostles and prophets are that of the two witnesses explained in Rev 11.

Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. John is given the understanding that the two witnesses are in comparison to the two candlesticks and two olive trees, which if you read Zechariah Chapter 4 it explains that the golden candlestick is God. The seven lamps with the seven pipes that holds the oil (anointing) is that of the seven Spirits of God given to His Church: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and Spirit of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2.

The two olive trees are to groups of people. One group being natural Israel (Old Testament) as a remnant according to the election of grace have been saved as in the 144,000 taken from the twelve tribes of Israel that remained faithful to God up to a thousand generations thereafter that remain faithful, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17. The other being Gentiles (New Testament) grafted into the branch by that same grace of God that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by His Holy Spirit, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Romans Chapter 11. The two witnesses have always been those who have stood by God and His law in the Old Testament and those who stand by God and Jesus under the dispensation of grace in the New Testament.

 

[for_his_glory]

That doesn't seem right...he's restraining himself???

What is being withhold in 2Thess 2:1-10 is that of the mystery of who that man of sin is which is the son of perdition that even now Satan is working through. He is being restrained by Satan until the time comes when he displays all power and signs and lying wonders when Satan gives him command and will be revealed in the end of days as mystery Babylon, Rev 18, and destroyed in Rev 19.

 

[for_his_glory]

Problem is....the bible says Jesus will return in the same fashion as He left. In the clouds. When Jesus ascended into the clouds He wasn't riding a horse.

I never said he was riding a horse when He ascended up to heaven. There were others that were speaking about this.

 

[Malachi]

Problem is....the bible says Jesus will return in the same fashion as He left. In the clouds. When Jesus ascended into the clouds He wasn't riding a horse.

And that is not what was being prophesied. Christ went to Heaven from the Mount of Olives in a real, glorified body. That is exactly how He will return, but as we see in Revelation 19, He rides a white horse. Some claim that He has already return *spiritually*, but that is false.

 

[Sinthesis]

Problem is....the bible says Jesus will return in the same fashion as He left. In the clouds. When Jesus ascended into the clouds He wasn't riding a horse.

They are both figurative representations of power.

 

[for_his_glory]

edited a reply to a deleted post