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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

The word "falling away" is actually a miss translation of the Greek (apostasia) meaning "the departure". And that Greek word translated in The Vulgate translation to Latin is "raptureis", Which is where we got the word "Rapture" from.

I need several different versions of the Papyrus for 2 Thessalonians 2:3, not the latin version, before I would change it.

Strong's Dictionary Number: [646]
1 Original Word: ἀποστασία
2 Word Origin: feminine of the same as (647)
3 Transliterated Word: apostasia
4 TDNT/TWOT Entry: 1:513,88
5 Phonetic Spelling: ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
6 Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
7 Strong's Definition: feminine of the same as [647;]647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.
8 Definition:
a falling away, defection, apostasy

9 English: a falling away/defection/apostasy
0 Usage: falling away, forsake
 
I need several different versions of the Papyrus for 2 Thessalonians 2:3, not the latin version, before I would change it.

Strong's Dictionary Number: [646]
1 Original Word: ἀποστασία
2 Word Origin: feminine of the same as (647)
3 Transliterated Word: apostasia
4 TDNT/TWOT Entry: 1:513,88
5 Phonetic Spelling: ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
6 Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
7 Strong's Definition: feminine of the same as [647;]647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.
8 Definition:
a falling away, defection, apostasy

9 English: a falling away/defection/apostasy
0 Usage: falling away, forsake
I believe that is what it means also, defection from truth, apostasy
 
I need several different versions of the Papyrus for 2 Thessalonians 2:3, not the latin version, before I would change it.

Strong's Dictionary Number: [646]
1 Original Word: ἀποστασία
2 Word Origin: feminine of the same as (647)
3 Transliterated Word: apostasia
4 TDNT/TWOT Entry: 1:513,88
5 Phonetic Spelling: ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
6 Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
7 Strong's Definition: feminine of the same as [647;]647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.
8 Definition:
a falling away, defection, apostasy

9 English: a falling away/defection/apostasy
0 Usage: falling away, forsake
:salute
 
YUP and we do it all the time.. Man gets an idea in his head and shoves pushes twists the scriptures to fit... even ignoring some..
 
).



What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away", taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.[4]



So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.



Translation History
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure." In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning 'departure.'"[6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"?





Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In II Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.[7]



Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is "to denote a previous reference." "The departure Paul previously referred to was 'our being gathered to him' (v. 1) and our being 'caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17)," notes Dr. Lewis.[8] The "departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"

The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27-32; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; Jude 3-4, 17-21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:



Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.[9]



Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:



Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2-3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from god's wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ's coming as taught in his first letter.[10]



Departure and The Restrainer
Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:



I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.[11]



Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:



But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.[12]



Conclusion
The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is), then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!



Endnotes



[URL='http://www.pre-trib.
[/LIST]
adding "the" makes a real difference ..
YUP and we do it all the time.. Man gets an idea in his head and shoves pushes twists the scriptures to fit... even ignoring some..
 
YUP and we do it all the time.. Man gets an idea in his head and shoves pushes twists the scriptures to fit... even ignoring some..
reba, The calling out of the Church (rapture) and the last 3 1/2 years of great tribulation is in plain sight. The reason you can not find it is the very reason you quoted above. You have got the idea in your head by teachers of error that shoves and pushes and twist the Scriptures to fit what you have been taught. If the Lord would teach me these things, why would I believe anyone else's teachings. Strong's definitions of Greek are not infallible. As a moderator you should unbiased, because you moderate on what your theology is. I teach what the Lord confirms to me, that is my calling and election...not ego. If you are SINCERE to know the TRUTH, and I mean EAGER for TRUTH. Get to a place where there are no distractions and ask Him to show you the TRUTH of His word. I guarantee there will be a change in your life. The world will persecute you, for it does not regard the TRUTH. So, that is how you will know if I'am tell the Scriptural TRUTH or not.
 
Some things especially in Rev can be symbolic where they need to be for us to have a deeper understanding of the literal. Just like it says in Rev 8:10,11 that this burning star literally fell upon one third of the rivers and fountains of waters and many men died from the waters for they were bitter. I had to look up the word wormwood to see what it was and that is why it says the waters are bitter. I think the fountains of water could be streams of water as many of us that use well water it comes from the surrounding streams in most cases.

that I think fountains could me streams

Anyone who has studied the correlations of various "waters" in the scriptures knows that these have allegorical connotations. We are for example "washed" by the "water" of the Word.

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Anyone studying end times and fixating on literal external sights/demands without the deployments of allegories/parables/similitudes etc is not going to get very far along in understandings.

The "end time" comes for every believer at the "end" of "their time" on earth for example. The church has always been "in tribulations."

When believers read of the Great Tribulation the very first question to ask is this:

Great Tribulation for WHO?

If we are "led" to see correctly that Great Tribulation is actually meant for the devil and his messengers. Now, who doesn't want to be here to see that? I might very well enjoy this finale myself, and in fact HOPE to see that rather than trying to concoct a dodge out using pre-trib.
 
reba, The calling out of the Church (rapture) and the last 3 1/2 years of great tribulation is in plain sight.


The coming of the Lord Jesus and the resurrection of the dead in Christ comes after the tribulation.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


The Coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead, happens just a moment before the rapture as the resurrection/rapture are one event whereby all His people are gather together unto Him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


This plain and clearly shows:
  • The Resurrection is just before the Rapture.
  • The Resurrected ones and Raptured ones are caught up together at His coming.

JLB

 
Maybe I am also seeing what I want to see?

2 Thessalonians 2:3
to deceive~exapatao an absolute denial/ ruling out its possibilities~me a certain one or object~tis
to deceive~exapatao you~humas down from/according to~kata nobody/no one/nothing~medeis
a manner/way/fashion~tropos that/because/since~hoti if not/unless/whoever not~ean to come~erchomai
a falling away/defection/apostasy~apostasia first in time or place~proton

even/then/also~kai a human being/in the plural, people~anthropos sin/offence~hamartia
disclose/reveal~apokalupto son/kinship~huios utter destruction/damnable nation~apoleia

a falling away/defection/apostasy~apostasia the root of strong's 648 is from 647 something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:--(writing of) divorcement.

If the "falling away/apostasy" is from word for "writing of divorcement" then wouldn't the Quran be that letter of divorcement?

The "in the plural, people" & "son/kinship" and "damnable nation" fits together also with Great Nation of Esau's Kin?
 
There is none that I know of, but Christ says He will keep his Church from the hour of temptation that will come upon all the world (Rev. 3:10). The tribulation is 7 years and in two parts. The first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation where the Gentile mystery religion (Babylon) beguiles the Jew into peace and safety. Then the last 3 1/2 years are called the "Great Tribulation" when the mystery religion (Babylon) turns on Israel and the Jew to destroy Israel and the Jew. The reason Babylon mystery religion is called a whore is first, it is not the worship that Israel was given by God (it was nothing like it) and Israel was married to it, and Second, It does not involve or have anything to do with the Lord. It is a religion the replaces God and prostitutes itself as (the only god to be worshiped) by the spirit of Satan, and Israel left God for another.

There are two Babylon mysteries. A false religion and a false kingdom ( the two beast ) (Revelation chapters 17 & 18). One beast over the mystery religion and another beast over the mystery political system, all under the spirit of Satan.

Just as the word trinity is not in Scripture, there is Scripture that proves it. So it is with the coming of the Lord for His Church before (Jacobs trouble) (Jer. 30:7) Jacobs trouble is the same Tribulation in Revelation.
The Church is not in the 7 year tribulation because it is about Gentile nations and Israel It is a period called "The fullfillment of The Times of The Gentiles". (Luke 21:20-24) This Scripture is about the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. It is not the Church that are preaching the Gospel during this time, it is the 144,000 anointed Jews (Revelation chapter 7). At this time in God's plan, He is not saving the world at this time but calling out His Church (body). It is during the great Tribulation upon all the world that more men will be saved that no man can count. But you are wrong about 1 Thess. 4: 13:-18 describes exactly what a rapture is. And in (2 Thess. 2:3) The word "falling away" is actually a miss translation of the Greek (apostasia) meaning "the departure". And that Greek word translated in The Vulgate translation to Latin is "raptureis", Which is where we got the word "Rapture" from.
Sorry about the length of this as there was so much in what you posted that I wanted to reply to.

Yes, Jesus will keep us from the hour of temptation as He always has, but only if we stand in the Holy place, Matthew 24:15, which is Christ Jesus in whom is our faith as we trust Him in all tribulation even persecutions to death.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seven trumpets, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

Tribulation has never been divided in sections and no where in scripture does it define any seven years as scripture say we will always have tribulations, Deut 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1Peter 1:6.

From the sounding of the first to the seventh trumpet are called woes to the inhabiters of the earth, Rev 8:13. as the Church will go through much tribulation, but we are not to fear that which must come first before Christ return, Matthew 10:28.

The beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire and Grecian Empire and Roman Empire. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25.

These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.

The beast out of the earth, Rev 13:11-18, is the revived Roman Empire which causes man to take its mark, Daniel 7:24, 25 and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, He will think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Concerning the 144,00 in Rev 14:1-5 the Lamb represents Jesus who stands on the symbolic mount Sion in the heavenly Jerusalem meaning where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell which is called the heaven of heavens, Hebrews 12:22-24; Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16. The hundred and forty four thousand that John sees standing with Jesus is not a literal numbering, but symbolic of those of Gods established covenant with faithful Abraham up through a thousand generations, Deuteronomy 7:9; Galatians 3:6, 7; 3:28, 29. It is those of great faith to the Jew first and then the Gentile who have gone on before us as together with them all who are alive or have died before the Lords return makes up the complete Church of Christ, Ephesians 5:25-27.

I will let 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 2Thess 2:3 speak as it is written as this is what the rapture means and the falling away has always been and will continue during Gods wrath on earth before Christ returns and we with Him, Rev 19.

Do you seriously think that everything is only going to happen in Israel during the great and terrible day of the Lord that is Gods wrath poured out on the earth. Every nation including the USA will face Gods wrath during the seven trumpets sounding as no one is excempt. We who are still alive have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30 and need not fear what others can do to us, Matthew 10:28,

Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses of Rev 11 are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. These are the people that God gives a special anointing to during the seven trumpets as they go out and preach the gospel to all nations to those who will have ears to hear and then the end comes when Christ returns for His Bride, Matthew 24:13,14.
 
I'm confused, do we live on the same planet?

Israel is surrounded by wolves to the north, south and east.
These wolves seek the utter destruction of Israel and is trying to acquire Nuclear Weapons to wipe them off the earth once and all.
Honestly, it sounds like there is more fear of these wolves then there is the fear of God!
You are NOT afraid of the "Rome", so you speak evil of it, but in the absence of not speaking the truth you praise the true Beast in the process. You give it honor and make it sacred in your silence.

One small un-truth creates another un-truth, till nothing is true and all that is left is a fantasy.
 
Anyone who has studied the correlations of various "waters" in the scriptures knows that these have allegorical connotations. We are for example "washed" by the "water" of the Word.

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Anyone studying end times and fixating on literal external sights/demands without the deployments of allegories/parables/similitudes etc is not going to get very far along in understandings.

The "end time" comes for every believer at the "end" of "their time" on earth for example. The church has always been "in tribulations."

When believers read of the Great Tribulation the very first question to ask is this:

Great Tribulation for WHO?

If we are "led" to see correctly that Great Tribulation is actually meant for the devil and his messengers. Now, who doesn't want to be here to see that? I might very well enjoy this finale myself, and in fact HOPE to see that rather than trying to concoct a dodge out using pre-trib.

Ephesians 5:26 speaks of Christ being the head of the Church which makes up the body of Christ as He keeps His Church Holy by washing or another word purifying the Church by His word that when he appears we will appear with Him, Colossians 3:1-4.

John 3:5 the word water does not mean actual water as it means the word of God as in the living word John 4:14; 7:37; 14:4.

When Jesus called them to go preach and baptize He meant to baptize those in the Holy Spirit and not actual water so they would be filled with the Holy Spirit. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water as that is an outward appearance to man that you have repented as in John the baptist repentance with actual water.

No where in scripture does it speak about, nor uses the words "The Great Tribulation" but does say we will always have tribulations and the greatest that has never been or ever will be again is that of Gods wrath poured out on the nations in the end of days before the return of Christ, Matthew 24:21.

I have already given scripture that shows the Church as being the body of Christ and who are still living will go through seeing all of Gods wrath poured out, but will not harm us as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit till the day of redemption which means the end of days, Ephesians 4:30. I will list all those scriptures again stating the Church will be here through out Revelations.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. How could they repent if the Gospel wasn't being preached to them as faith comes by hearing the words of God.
Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth
 
Find the word antichrist in The Revelation of Jesus Christ ?
reba, The calling out of the Church (rapture) and the last 3 1/2 years of great tribulation is in plain sight. The reason you can not find it is the very reason you quoted above. You have got the idea in your head by teachers of error that shoves and pushes and twist the Scriptures to fit what you have been taught. If the Lord would teach me these things, why would I believe anyone else's teachings. Strong's definitions of Greek are not infallible. As a moderator you should unbiased, because you moderate on what your theology is. I teach what the Lord confirms to me, that is my calling and election...not ego. If you are SINCERE to know the TRUTH, and I mean EAGER for TRUTH. Get to a place where there are no distractions and ask Him to show you the TRUTH of His word. I guarantee there will be a change in your life. The world will persecute you, for it does not regard the TRUTH. So, that is how you will know if I'am tell the Scriptural TRUTH or not.
All i said is the 3 word phrase The great tribulation .. is not scriptural ... Now i know i must say it can not be found in KJ..

If you are SINCERE to know the TRUTH, and I mean EAGER for TRUTH. Get to a place where there are no distractions and ask Him to show you the TRUTH of His word. I guarantee there will be a change in your life
Totally agree, and Yes it was life changing..
 
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


Notice that the Resurrection and Rapture are one event, that takes place at His Coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The Raptured ones shall be caught up with the Resurrected ones, as all will be gathered together to meet the Lord in the air.



JLB

The word Rapture was added by man and not found in scripture. Being caught up as in 1Thess 4:16 is not a pretrib catching up to meet Jesus in the clouds and then in the air. 1Cor 15:52 says at the last trump meaning sometime during the seventh trumpet and after the son of perdition is revealed, 2Thess 2:1-5.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This verse does not say "the great tribulation". is says great tribulation. Very big difference
 
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