Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[jasonc]

For all those who believe in a pretrib rapture before what you like to call "The Great Tribulation" and we are all out of here, here is my questions. What would be the purpose of a seven year or even a 3 1/2 year tribulation period or even a literal 1000 year reign with Christ here on earth. What would the purpose of the mark of the beast even be if we are taken up to be with Jesus as you say the Church will not be here at that time. Wouldn't you think that once we were caught up to be with Jesus that God would at that time as even in the twinkling of an eye just send everyone who's names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life to the lake of fire immediately so He could usher down the New Jerusalem. Why would God take up all of us and only leave two witnesses, which could not cover all the nations anyway, and then come back and rapture the two.

Revelations means the unveiling as John was never caught up to the third heaven, but only in the Spirit while being a prisoner on the isle of Patmos when Jesus sent the angel to him to give him warnings of what to look for before Jesus returns and instructed to send what he wrote to the seven Churches which we are all apart of.

If one wants you can also look at the book in a different nature.oh study the inagery.the torah,the wheels, etc.the problem of only Jesus is seen.The father isn't seen.you will see the comparison to that in the visions of ezekiel,daniel,isiah

 

[for_his_glory]

If one wants you can also look at the book in a different nature.oh study the inagery.the torah,the wheels, etc.the problem of only Jesus is seen.The father isn't seen.you will see the comparison to that in the visions of ezekiel,daniel,isiah

How did that answer any of my questions I asked?

 

[jasonc]

How did that answer any of my questions I asked?

There's this problem for you with premil.I'm amil.

1) the blood fails.the church is a failure satan wins
2 ) the torah us back
3) the bible doesn't mention Jesus in the temple and women or men who aren't the prince or the son of Zadok being able to enter the Holy of Holes
4 ) Jesus mentions one resurrection
5) paul,John only say one
6) His kingdom has no end.it lasts forever

Thus doesn't mean there's not a problem with amil.

 

[for_his_glory]

There's this problem for you with premil.I'm amil.

1) the blood fails.the church is a failure satan wins
2 ) the torah us back
3) the bible doesn't mention Jesus in the temple and women or men who aren't the prince or the son of Zadok being able to enter the Holy of Holes
4 ) Jesus mentions one resurrection
5) paul,John only say one
6) His kingdom has no end.it lasts forever

Thus doesn't mean there's not a problem with amil.

I really do not understand your post here as it is very confusing. Could you elaborate on these 6 points?

Pre, Post and Amil all have their problems for how they are being taught and how we receive those teachings. I only consider myself as one who believes the Church will still be here during the seven trumpet and vial judgments as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption as the Church being the body of Christ who are still alive at this time continues its witness and testimony of Christ as many who at that time will have ears to finally hear and repent.

Rev 20:1-9 in John's vision he sees thrones and those who sat upon them were those who were beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ as they did not take the mark of the beast, Rev 13:11-18. They died a martyr's death and their souls now joined with those souls who also died a martyr's death and seen of Johns vision waiting under the altar to be avenged, Rev 6:9-11. Now the time of fulfillment has come as judgment on those who have persecuted them to death has come and all are now avenged for the blood they spilled for the sake of Christ and not only those who were persecuted to death, but all the saints of God from the beginning of time and those who are still alive at the coming of Christ are all a part of the first resurrection, John 6:40, being the first fruits of His creatures, James 1:8; Romans 8:23. A thousand years are not literal as in days and years as this would defer the judgment of the wicked and the glory of the saints of God to a very lengthy time, 2Peter Chapter 3.

 

[jasonc]

I really do not understand your post here as it is very confusing. Could you elaborate on these 6 points?

Pre, Post and Amil all have their problems for how they are being taught and how we receive those teachings. I only consider myself as one who believes the Church will still be here during the seven trumpet and vial judgments as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption as the Church being the body of Christ who are still alive at this time continues its witness and testimony of Christ as many who at that time will have ears to finally hear and repent.

Rev 20:1-9 in John's vision he sees thrones and those who sat upon them were those who were beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ as they did not take the mark of the beast, Rev 13:11-18. They died a martyr's death and their souls now joined with those souls who also died a martyr's death and seen of Johns vision waiting under the altar to be avenged, Rev 6:9-11. Now the time of fulfillment has come as judgment on those who have persecuted them to death has come and all are now avenged for the blood they spilled for the sake of Christ and not only those who were persecuted to death, but all the saints of God from the beginning of time and those who are still alive at the coming of Christ are all a part of the first resurrection, John 6:40, being the first fruits of His creatures, James 1:8; Romans 8:23. A thousand years are not literal as in days and years as this would defer the judgment of the wicked and the glory of the saints of God to a very lengthy time, 2Peter Chapter 3.

If its,it's literal then when did Jesus every loose his throne.after He died he said behold all things are mine.God never lost control of the earth.all souls are mine,the earth and fullness thereof is mine.

He always controls what goes on.the church isn't raised until after the millenium? Jesus reigns on the earth but the saints aren't in heaven with him?

The chialism has these tenets
1 ) isreal under the rule of Jesus from the the third temple
2) isreal rules or leads the gentiles to repentence.the
3) satan is bound
4) satan is loosed to tempt men and is damned to Gehenna
5) peace,animals and men live in harmony
6) long life

 

[for_his_glory]

If its,it's literal then when did Jesus every loose his throne.after He died he said behold all things are mine.God never lost control of the earth.all souls are mine,the earth and fullness thereof is mine.

He always controls what goes on.the church isn't raised until after the millenium? Jesus reigns on the earth but the saints aren't in heaven with him?

The chialism has these tenets
1 ) isreal under the rule of Jesus from the the third temple
2) isreal rules or leads the gentiles to repentence.the
3) satan is bound
4) satan is loosed to tempt men and is damned to Gehenna
5) peace,animals and men live in harmony
6) long life

Thank you for the clarification. Jesus has always reigned from His glory seat in heaven after He ascended to sit at the right hand of God and God is always in control. We have reigned with Christ as a royal priesthood from the moment of salvation through Him and always will for eternity.

 

[jasonc]

Thank you for the clarification. Jesus has always reigned from His glory seat in heaven after He ascended to sit at the right hand of God and God is always in control. We have reigned with Christ as a royal priesthood from the moment of salvation through Him and always will for eternity.

So then your amil .

 

[for_his_glory]

So then your amil .

If that's what they call it then it would appear that I am.

 

[jasonc]

If that's what they call it then it would appear that I am.

More or less.that or post military but post mil isn't something I see in you

 

[Douglas Summers]

For all those who believe in a pretrib rapture before what you like to call "The Great Tribulation" and we are all out of here, here is my questions. What would be the purpose of a seven year or even a 3 1/2 year tribulation period or even a literal 1000 year reign with Christ here on earth. What would the purpose of the mark of the beast even be if we are taken up to be with Jesus as you say the Church will not be here at that time. W

Because, you fail to understand the Bible as a whole record and prophecy of Past, present and future events , that all Scripture is a part of one purpose in God's creation of man, to create out of mankind a people of His own. God never intended for man to live in this body forever, But He planted us men as a seed to cultivate out of that seed a Holy Creation to live, fellowship and share in His heavenly Kingdom. (John 14:2) (Psalms 23) (1 Cor. 15:39-50) (Heb. 12:22-28) (Heb. 11:13-18) The administration of that kingdom will be His Body (His Church) (1 Cor. 6:2-3) (Rev. 1:6)

From (Gen. 11:10 to John 21:25) is about only Israel (Matt. 15:21-24) The Church is only mentioned to be called out at an appointed time. (Matt. 16:13-20) (Christ says HE WILL BUILD, NOT I'AM BUILDING). From (Gen. 1:1 to 11:9) God dealt with all men the same. The first mention of a Savior for man is in (Gen. 3:14-15). But God knew (before creation) if man did not obey, He would need a Savior, and He would give of Himself to harvest a Kingdom in His image by conforming men by grace in the image of Christ (complete conformity) (Gen. 1:26-27) (Gen. 6:5-7) (Rom. 8:28-34). There should be no discussion about free will to choose good or evil, or rather to obey or disobey. Scripture makes that clear (Gen. 2:15-17; Gen. 3:1-6, 17) (Isaiah 14:12-14).

It is MY thought that when God created the angels (with free will), they were created with a heavenly body. The heavenly body is not subject to the pangs of sin like the mortal body. When man sins, the results can be felt in the flesh (disease, blindness, sickness, death, loss of body parts, sadness, grief, Hunger, famine, sorrows), all of these things are not known to angels, they do not even understand Salvation! (1 Pet. 1:9-12) So by the flesh, sin shows it's ugly and deadly results. So God planted us in the flesh (not the body that He wanted, (1 Cor. 15:35-50) but the seed to be cultivated into a heavenly immortal body) So be that the planted body (seed) produced fruit , but if not (Matt. 13:24-30) (John 15:1-8)

The birth of Israel and the promises starts with Abraham (Abrahamic Covenant) Genesis Chapter 12, and will also benefit all Gentile nations (Gen. 12:2-3) (Rom. 15:9-13). From Genesis chapter 12 to John Chapter 21 is about Israel, The Gentile nations only being included as they touch Israel. The Acts (of the Apostles) to Revelation Chapter 4 is Church Doctrine. Revelations chapter 5 thru Chapter 22 is about the warnings and promises of Israel and the TRIBULATION they will experience, and the New Heaven and Earth into eternity.
The promises to Abraham were also confirmed to his son Issac and Jacob. Then came the slavery of Israel in Egypt...Then the Exodus from Egypt; The Law under Moses and Arron ; 40 years in the desert. As Moses comes to his end, God instructs Moses to explain the Blessings of obedience and the curses for disobedience before they enter the promised land. Since the capture of Israel and Judah, (which is the cursing God warned Israel of in Deuteronomy if they were disobedient) Chapters 28 thru 30. The Jew has been under the rule of the Gentile, even to this day, and it will be that way until the "times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.(Luke 21:20-24)
for His glory, if you want to understand the events in the Revelation of Jesus the Christ, you are going to have to read these chapters in Deuteronomy..... I will continue this in the next post.....unless your not interested.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[JLB]

Because, you fail to understand the Bible as a whole record and prophecy of Past, present and future events , that all Scripture is a part of one purpose in God's creation of man, to create out of mankind a people of His own. God never intended for man to live in this body forever, But He planted us men as a seed to cultivate out of that seed a Holy Creation to live, fellowship and share in His heavenly Kingdom. (John 14:2) (Psalms 23) (1 Cor. 15:39-50) (Heb. 12:22-28) (Heb. 11:13-18) The administration of that kingdom will be His Body (His Church) (1 Cor. 6:2-3) (Rev. 1:6)

From (Gen. 11:10 to John 21:25) is about only Israel (Matt. 15:21-24) The Church is only mentioned to be called out at an appointed time. (Matt. 16:13-20) (Christ says HE WILL BUILD, NOT I'AM BUILDING). From (Gen. 1:1 to 11:9) God dealt with all men the same. The first mention of a Savior for man is in (Gen. 3:14-15). But God knew (before creation) if man did not obey, He would need a Savior, and He would give of Himself to harvest a Kingdom in His image by conforming men by grace in the image of Christ (complete conformity) (Gen. 1:26-27) (Gen. 6:5-7) (Rom. 8:28-34). There should be no discussion about free will to choose good or evil, or rather to obey or disobey. Scripture makes that clear (Gen. 2:15-17; Gen. 3:1-6, 17) (Isaiah 14:12-14).

It is MY thought that when God created the angels (with free will), they were created with a heavenly body. The heavenly body is not subject to the pangs of sin like the mortal body. When man sins, the results can be felt in the flesh (disease, blindness, sickness, death, loss of body parts, sadness, grief, Hunger, famine, sorrows), all of these things are not known to angels, they do not even understand Salvation! (1 Pet. 1:9-12) So by the flesh, sin shows it's ugly and deadly results. So God planted us in the flesh (not the body that He wanted, (1 Cor. 15:35-50) but the seed to be cultivated into a heavenly immortal body) So be that the planted body (seed) produced fruit , but if not (Matt. 13:24-30) (John 15:1-8)

The birth of Israel and the promises starts with Abraham (Abrahamic Covenant) Genesis Chapter 12, and will also benefit all Gentile nations (Gen. 12:2-3) (Rom. 15:9-13). From Genesis chapter 12 to John Chapter 21 is about Israel, The Gentile nations only being included as they touch Israel. The Acts (of the Apostles) to Revelation Chapter 4 is Church Doctrine. Revelations chapter 5 thru Chapter 22 is about the warnings and promises of Israel and the TRIBULATION they will experience, and the New Heaven and Earth into eternity.
The promises to Abraham were also confirmed to his son Issac and Jacob. Then came the slavery of Israel in Egypt...Then the Exodus from Egypt; The Law under Moses and Arron ; 40 years in the desert. As Moses comes to his end, God instructs Moses to explain the Blessings of obedience and the curses for disobedience before they enter the promised land. Since the capture of Israel and Judah, (which is the cursing God warned Israel of in Deuteronomy if they were disobedient) Chapters 28 thru 30. The Jew has been under the rule of the Gentile, even to this day, and it will be that way until the "times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.(Luke 21:20-24)
for His glory, if you want to understand the events in the Revelation of Jesus the Christ, you are going to have to read these chapters in Deuteronomy..... I will continue this in the next post.....unless your not interested.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

How about understanding one simple verse that shows the resurrection and rapture are one event that occur on the Day of the Lord?

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


One scripture completely shows the pre-trib rapture to be unscriptural.

The resurrection comes before the rapture, in which all those who are Christ's will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.



JLB

 

[Malachi]

How about understanding one simple verse that shows the resurrection and rapture are one event that occur on the Day of the Lord?

A plain reading of 1 Thess 4:13-18 clearly shows that the Resurrection-Rapture is all one event (in the twinkling of an eye) -- resurrection for saints who died in Christ, rapture for those who are alive.

Just scratch the Day of the Lord from this event. As I already showed you, that period is a time of judgement and wrath, which has nothing to do with those who have been redeemed by God's grace.

Why did Paul mention the Day of the Lord? Because some false teachers were trying to frighten believers into thinking that the resurrection was past, and the Day of the Lord was at hand. That was an attempt to sabotage the truth.

 

[JLB]

A plain reading of 1 Thess 4:13-18 clearly shows that the Resurrection-Rapture is all one event (in the twinkling of an eye) -- resurrection for saints who died in Christ, rapture for those who are alive.

Amen! All one event.

Just scratch the Day of the Lord from this event. As I already showed you, that period is a time of judgement and wrath, which has nothing to do with those who have been redeemed by God's grace.

Why did Paul mention the Day of the Lord? Because some false teachers were trying to frighten believers into thinking that the resurrection was past, and the Day of the Lord was at hand. That was an attempt to sabotage the truth.

Sorry bro, the Day of the Lord is what Paul was describing, as the resurrection takes place at His coming, which is the day of the Lord.

Again, the clarion call of the pre-trib movement is: The rapture could happen at any moment!

The scripture that they give for this is: The Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

They say:
"The rapture is imminent", for the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

This means that those who teach the pre-trib rapture, have linked the Day of the Lord with the rapture.

The Day of the Lord is in fact when the Rapture occurs, but just after the Resurrection, as you said it's one event.

Now that you agree, we can study the scriptures, to discover when the Resurrection takes place, since we agree that it comes at the same time as the Rapture, being one event, when the saints are all gathered together to meet the Lord in the air at His coming.

Here's one:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


Here we have another letter to the Thessalonians.

Paul plainly says that the coming of the Lord and the gathering [Resurrection/Rapture] will not come unless the the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

He also teaches that at the coming of the Lord, the false christ, the man of sin, the lawless one will be destroyed by the very brightness of His coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The coming of the Lord is the time of the gathering [Resurrection/Rapture].

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

The coming [Parousia] of the Lord is when the gathering [Resurrection/Rapture] takes place.

Paul says the coming of the Lord won't happen until the antichrist is revealed.

It is the Lord who destroys the antichrist by the brightness of His coming.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

How about understanding one simple verse that shows the resurrection and rapture are one event that occur on the Day of the Lord?

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


One scripture completely shows the pre-trib rapture to be unscriptural.

The resurrection comes before the rapture, in which all those who are Christ's will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.



JLB

True, the resurrection happens first.....but then again as Malachi just pointed out...the twinkling of an eye....isn't to far removed.

 

[Malachi]

Sorry bro, the Day of the Lord is what Paul was describing, as the resurrection takes place at His coming, which is the day of the Lord.

Let's clear this up (1 Thess 5:1-11).

THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES SUDDENLY FOR THE ONES AWAITING "SUDDEN DESTRUCTION"
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [Jesus said "as it was in the day of Noah"]

THE DAY OF THE LORD IS NOT FOR CHRISTIANS
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

CHRISTIANS TO BE WATCHFUL AND SOBER
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

THE HOPE OF SALVATION INCLUDES THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

CHRISTIANS NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

CHRISTIANS TO TAKE COMFORT IN THIS FACT
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Douglas Summers]

How about understanding one simple verse that shows the resurrection and rapture are one event that occur on the Day of the Lord?

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Correct.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Let's clear this up (1 Thess 5:1-11).

THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES SUDDENLY FOR THE ONES AWAITING "SUDDEN DESTRUCTION"
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [Jesus said "as it was in the day of Noah"]

THE DAY OF THE LORD IS NOT FOR CHRISTIANS
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

CHRISTIANS TO BE WATCHFUL AND SOBER
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

THE HOPE OF SALVATION INCLUDES THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

CHRISTIANS NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

CHRISTIANS TO TAKE COMFORT IN THIS FACT
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Thanks Malachi, It could not be any clearer. Joy to us in that comfort, But sadness in our heart for those who trampled under foot God's Grace that are left here on the day of the Lord (God's wrath)

 

[Cygnus]

Day has several meanings.
This link to bible hub goes into great detail.
Bible hub presents the usage of "DAY" with 4 different understandings.

Definition 2 refers to... of the civil day, or the space of twenty-four hours (thus including the night).

Everytime day is used it is not to be seen in the nuiance of definition 2.

Definition 3 according to Bible Hub is presented in this fashion:
of the lust day of the present age (see αἰών, 3), the day in which Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom, the following expressions are used:

 

[Malachi]

Day has several meanings.

But the Day of the LORD has only one meaning. Let's not go off on rabbit trails.

 

[reba]

What comes after the Resurrection ?