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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

If Christ did not first come FOR His saints, He could not return WITH His saints. This is so elementary that it should not even been disputed. You will not find a single Scripture where Christ is ascending while He is also descending. That is a purely fictitious scenario created by the ones who simply cannot see the imminency of the Rapture.

Christ never descends back to heaven after we are gathered together in the clouds to meet Him in the air. Christ brings with Him the souls of those who have gone on before us like those who are waiting under the altar in Rev 6:9-11 as they like us will be joined with their new glorified bodies as the dead rise first and we who are still alive will be changed in a twinkling of an eye as we all receive our new glorified bodies. No where in scripture does it say we go back up to heaven with Him, but does say we are that army the returns with Him in Rev 19 as we are those who are clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19 Christ descends from heaven to the air, we are gathered to Him. From the air Christ then returns to earth, not heaven, as He fights the final battle, throws Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and false prophet. Then the heaven and earth is purified by God in order for the New Jerusalem to be established here on earth as we then at that time spend eternity with Christ.
 
If Christ did not first come FOR His saints, He could not return WITH His saints.

1 Thessalonians 4 is Jesus Christ coming with His saints, who had previously died [sleep] and for His saints who are alive and remain.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


  • Remain: is a reference to those who are alive on earth, when Jesus returns.
  • God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus: Saints coming with Jesus from Heaven to earth; Jerusalem.
  • ...caught up together with them: The resurrected and raptured ones caught up together.

Jesus comes with His saints, for His saints, to gather them together and forever be with them.


JLB
 
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Doesn't this verse say we will be in the clouds .. and so shall we ever be with the Lord?
 
First of all there is no the Great tribulation, it is Great Tribulation.

Next, all the body of Christ will not be out of here, there is one portion of the Church that receives that reward, and that is one part of the bride of Christ. They and the other part of the bride are present in heaven with Jesus when He receives His own throne in Rev 4:2 prior to the first three and one-half years of Great tribulation is called the Temptation that is to come upon all the world in Rev 3:10. How did those alive when Jesus came in the air escape? Keeping the word of Jesus’ patience, or patiently keeping the word of God.

There is to be a second three and one-half years of tribulation none of the Church will be present on earth for, and that is described in Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Why is the Church missing this? They are caught up prior to it; call it rapture or what you will as we see them in Rev 7:13-14 & Rev 14:1.

From my understanding there is to be one Great White Throne judgment, and that is to include all whose names are not written in the book of life according to Rev 2:12-13.

This sounds much like Paul in 2 Co 12:2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. I do see where John is invited to come up hither in Rev 4:1, and that was to God’s throne in the third heaven.

The problem is that many put the emphases on the word "The" and the letter "G' as in The Great tribulation, or as you post Great tribulation. Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be........... Not "The" or "G", just great tribulation.

There are not two parts of the Bride of Christ as everyone who has ever walked in faith from Genesis to the timing of the Christ return are the whole Bride of Christ and Jesus has always sat on the right hand of God from the day He ascended up to heaven, Mark 16:19. Rev 4:2 what John was seeing in his vision while he was caught up in the Spirit and not literally in heaven was a vision of the throne of God, Isaiah 6:1; Rev 1:10.

The hour of temptation spoken of in Rev 3:10 are past, present and future temptations. All of us being the Church of Philadelphia that is Gods faithful body in Christ have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 4:30. We are to stand strong in the Holy place that is Christ Jesus in whom is our faith as we trust Him in all things, Matthew 24:15 and not to fear that of Gods wrath being poured out on all the nations as they refuse to repent for we are not to fear what man can do to us, but fear that of what God will do to us of we lose that faith that is Christ Jesus as many will denounce Him in order to try and save their own lives especially when they receive the mark of the beast, Matthew 10:28; 16:25, Rev 13:16-18.

Matthew 24:21 says that there will be great tribulation and such a greater tribulation that man has ever seen before as the world has always had tribulations and this last tribulation against those who refuse to repent is more intense then any other during the seven trumpets and seven vial judgments that the world has ever seen before. It's not a separate tribulation, but only that of the greatest one ever seen, Deut 4:30; John 16:33; Romans 8:35.

Rev 7:13, 14 are those souls who are reserved in heaven under the altar waiting for their blood to be avenged as they came out of great tribulation and are to wait awhile until their fellow servants who will also die a martyr's death at the end of days as then all things of the prophecies of Gods word will be fulfilled and then we will be with the Lord forever in the New Jerusalem when it is ushered down.

Rev 14:1 The Lamb represents Jesus who stands on the symbolic mount Sion in the heavenly Jerusalem meaning where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell which is called the heaven of heavens, Hebrews 12:22-24; Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16. The hundred and forty four thousand that John sees standing with Jesus is not a literal numbering, but symbolic of those of Gods established covenant with faithful Abraham up through a thousand generations, Deuteronomy 7:9; Galatians 3:6, 7; 3:28, 29. It is those of great faith to the Jew first and then the Gentile who have gone on before us as together with them all who are alive or have died before the Lords return makes up the complete body of Christ, Ephesians 5:25-27.

To understand the mark of the beast one has to understand who the beast is that rises from the earth in Rev 13:11-18 and who gives power to this beast. Many will bow down and take this mark as being the actions of their hands and thoughts of their mind as they love their own life and will lose it, but those who lose their lives for the sake of Christ will find life eternal with the Father, Matthew 16:25. Many Christians will lose their faith in fear of losing their own life and will denounce Christ when faced with being persecuted, even to death for refusing this mark of the beast as it promises a false peace and safety.

Everything John was given by Jesus through the angel who gave him these visions while he was only caught up in the Spirit and never taken up physically to the third heaven are warnings not only to the Church being the true body of Christ like the Church of Philadelphia, but also to all who refuse to repent. Those who are in Christ and still alive at the time of the seven trumpets sounding God will give a greater anointing to those He appoints to preach the Gospels as many will finally open their ears to hear and repent and turn back to God, just as the thief on the cross in whom ask Jesus to remember him and Jesus said you will be with me in Paradise this day.
 
The problem is that many put the emphases on the word "The" and the letter "G' as in The Great tribulation, or as you post Great tribulation.
That is really not a problem, and had the KJV 1611 followed the Greek exactly we would read of The Great Tribulation in Scripture (Rev 7:14).

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, [the Tribulation, the Great] καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου.

King James 2000 Bible
And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

American Standard Version
And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So God calls it The Great Tribulation because Christ said that this would be a period of time such as had never been on the earth, nor would ever be again: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21).
 
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Doesn't this verse say we will be in the clouds .. and so shall we ever be with the Lord?
Of course it does. We should note carefully that Christ does NOT descend to the earth (as at His Second Coming) but meets the saints in the air and in the clouds. Why? Because they are destined for Heaven. So Christ first comes FOR His saints, and after the Marriage of the Lamb, He comes WITH His saints.
 
The verse says this... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. it says about being destined for heaven.
 
Where do the Scriptures say the last day is 1000 years?

Nowhere, but many take 2Peter 3:8 to mean a literal 1000 years. Why would God make us wait a literal 1000 years longer after returning with Jesus as His army in Rev 19 and binding Satan for a thousand years. It makes no sense at all.

Rev 20 Satan is bound and then will be loosed for awhile as he goes out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth as he gathers Gog and Magog being his innumerable evil spirits he uses, Ezekiel 38:2; Rev 16:14. They are sent forth to surround the camp of where we the saints of God now being with Christ are with Him as He stands on the mount of Olives and splits it in two from north to south as we are kept in the valley of it until God sends down fire from heaven and Satan is now cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet.

We the saints of God are the first resurrection as now comes the second which has no power from God where the dead that have refused to repent are gathered with those who are alive and have refused to repent and stand before God at His Great White Throne judgment and are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and the false prophet forever. God renews the heaven and earth at this time in preparation of ushering down the new Jerusalem where we will be with the Lord forever.
 
When we do the one day is as a thousand years... do the math.. If a thousand years as a day then why not a 365,000 years reign ?
We tend to use 2 peter 3:8 when it fits our theologies .. while ignoring when it doesn't ..

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psa_50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. Who owns the cattle on hill 1001 ?

Psa_105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
Is there no more word to a the 1001 generation?

Son_4:4 Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men.
That is some neck!
Some times the word thousand means 1000 sometimes it is means a large quantity .. Down the lines we might say if i had a million..
Some of the words are descriptive and not literal ... Like Jesus is not a four legged lamb..
 
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Doesn't this verse say we will be in the clouds .. and so shall we ever be with the Lord?
Yes it does. Zechariah 14:1-5 is a cross reference for Rev 19 and 20 as we return with Christ from the air, Jesus plants His feet on the mount of Olives splitting it from North to South where we are kept in the valley of it until Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet. Then comes the great white throne judgment where all who refused to repent are also cast into the lake of fire, the heaven and earth are renewed and the new Jerusalem is ushered down. From the time we meet Christ in the air we are forever with Him.
 
There are not two parts of the Bride of Christ as everyone who has ever walked in faith from Genesis to the timing of the Christ return are the whole Bride of Christ
I believe you to be wrong because we read in 1 Th 4:16-17.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who is represented by these that are with Jesus in heaven prior to great tribulation? There are seven divisions of the one Church written of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three according to their spiritual walk, and only two parts of the Church are commended; that is Smyrna in Rev 2:10 who are faithful unto death representing the dead in Christ who shall rise first, and then we read of Philadelphia who patiently keep the word of God in Rev 3:10 who are spared the hour of temptation to come upon all the earth; these are those alive at Jesus' coming for us to be caught up together with those that died of Smyrna.
 
That is really not a problem, and had the KJV 1611 followed the Greek exactly we would read of The Great Tribulation in Scripture (Rev 7:14).

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, [the Tribulation, the Great] καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου.

King James 2000 Bible
And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

American Standard Version
And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So God calls it The Great Tribulation because Christ said that this would be a period of time such as had never been on the earth, nor would ever be again: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21).

Why do so many put emphasis on the Greek when all these letters that the prophets and apostles wrote were written in Hebrew. When one reads these books and chapters as letters instead of Chapter, verse and punctuation then we see what was written even though man has transcribe these letters first in Hebrew and then all other languages, the Holy Spirit will always reveal truth.
 
The hour of temptation spoken of in Rev 3:10 are past, present and future temptations.
Can you supply scripture to bring forth your contention here? For instance in Mat 24:21 we read "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Do you actually believe the tribulation spoken of here is of no greater than previous trials they've faced?
 
I believe you to be wrong because we read in 1 Th 4:16-17.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who is represented by these that are with Jesus in heaven prior to great tribulation? There are seven divisions of the one Church written of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three according to their spiritual walk, and only two parts of the Church are commended; that is Smyrna in Rev 2:10 who are faithful unto death representing the dead in Christ who shall rise first, and then we read of Philadelphia who patiently keep the word of God in Rev 3:10 who are spared the hour of temptation to come upon all the earth; these are those alive at Jesus' coming for us to be caught up together with those that died of Smyrna.

Them in vs. 17 are those saints that have already returned to the dust of the ground and their spirit has returned unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7. Jesus will bring their spirit back with Him as the dead in Christ rise first and we who are still alive at His coming will join them in the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies to meet Jesus in the air then we are with the Lord forever here on earth, not back in heaven.

There are not seven divisions of the seven Churches in Rev, but seven divisions of the seven spirits of Isaiah 11:2. Only the Church of Philadelphia was found walking in all seven spirits while the other six lacked in many of them and God has given them warnings. We as the Church being the body of Christ are to be that example of the Church of Philadelphia as we need to be walking in those seven spirits that when Christ returns we are found worthy of His glory.
 
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Doesn't this verse say we will be in the clouds .. and so shall we ever be with the Lord?
Yes and it is a promise I stand on!
 
Standing, standing,
standing on the promises of Christ my Savior;
standing, standing,
I'm standing on the promises of God.
 
Can you supply scripture to bring forth your contention here? For instance in Mat 24:21 we read "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Do you actually believe the tribulation spoken of here is of no greater than previous trials they've faced?

There are so many scriptures that describe distress and suffering (tribulation) on those who have rejected God as they have set up their own Empires, follow after other gods and have even killed the prophets and saints of God including nailing Christ to a cross. The difference with this greater end time tribulation that is more diverse than any other is that it is global in the full destruction of the earth and all that live on it that refuse to repent as Gods patience and longsuffering, 2Peter 2:10, has come to an end. Each trumpet that sounds are Gods chastisement warnings to repent with the seventh trumpet being greater than the first six as the seventh trumpet will finish all the abominations that have caused desolation's here on earth as Jesus makes an end to all sin and cast it into the lake of fire where it is burned up forever.
 
Them in vs. 17 are those saints that have already returned to the dust of the ground and their spirit has returned unto God who gave it. Ecc 12:7. Jesus will bring their spirit back with Him as the dead in Christ rise first and we who are still alive at His coming will join them in the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies to meet Jesus in the air then we are with the Lord forever here on earth, not back in heaven.

There are not seven divisions of the seven Churches in Rev, but seven divisions of the seven spirits of Isaiah 11:2. Only the Church of Philadelphia was found walking in all seven spirits while the other six lacked in many of them and God has given them warnings. We as the Church being the body of Christ are to be that example of the Church of Philadelphia as we need to be walking in those seven spirits that when Christ returns we are found worthy of His glory.
Can you break that down to language or meaning I can understand? I also think you're 180 degrees off in your explanation of 1 Th 4:16-17; in other words, it is v.16 that represents the dead instead of v.17. Thanks.
 
The verse says this... to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. it says about being destined for heaven.
Where is the Lord?
Where will the Lord be eternally?
Where will the saints be eternally?
Where is "my Father's house"?
Where do the souls and spirits of the saints go at death?
Where is the Judgement Seat of Christ?
Where will the Marriage of the Lamb occur?
 
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