You might want to consider Heb 12:1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses . .
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural
- Thread starter for_his_glory
- Start date
Okay, I may see what we don't agree on here in your thinking of the one Church, the one body of Christ. You mention Philadelphia as a church (Church OF Philadelphia) instead of the portion of the Church IN Philadelphia. (Rev 3:7) This may all seem small potatoes until we consider that the one body of Christ will suffer differently in the end times according to their spiritual walk now.
I will ask where you see that John describes Smyrna & Philadelphia in heaven. By some of your description of the Church I'm not sure you see us in heaven at all; that is, round about and in the midst of the throne of God which is in heaven.
Where do you get that? Are you speaking of time before Mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem) returning to earth?
If you read Rev 5:10 where it says "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign ON the earth. The Greek Scofield translates the word "epi" (1909) as ON, whereas it can also be translated as "Over" which the Aramaic Bible in Plain English does. “And you have made them a Kingdom, Priests and Kings to our God, and they shall reign over The Earth.”
Why for any reason would we want to come to earth during Christ's reign? Even the 144,000 stand with Jesus in the heavenly Jerusalem; not national Israel. Thoughts?
th1b.taylor
Member
I'm going any way my LORD will have me!
The Church of Philadelphia in Rev 3 is our example of patience and endurance even through tribulations that we keep the word of God and are never tempted to fall away from it.
In Rev 6:9-11 the souls that are under the altar are those souls that have been slain for the word of God as they faced persecution to death during the oppression from their enemies during their times of tribulations. They are asking when their blood will be avenged and are told to rest for awhile until their fellow servants and brethren that will be killed as they were should be fulfilled.
These souls under the altar are as the Church of Smyrna for they did not fear those things they suffered as they were faithful unto death and and received the crown of life, meaning life eternal with God. They also are as the Church of Philadelphia for they kept the word of God and God kept them from the hour of temptation meaning they could have been tempted by Satan to save their own lives, but they loved God more than their own lives and gave their lives for His sake.
The souls of those under the altar have been slain and waiting to be avenged for their blood as they wait till all those who will also die a martyr's death that is even know happening around the world and will continue as those who refuse to denounce Christ while being forced to take the mark of the beast, Rev 13, will also die a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.
Other faithful souls that have gone on before us, but never died a martyr's death, are also preserved in heaven as many faithful souls will be added daily until the time of Christ return. Ecc 12:7. When Christ descends down from heaven at the last trump to plant His feet on the Mt. of Olives to fight the final battle He also brings them (souls) with Him as He waits in the air for those who are in the graves will rise first then we who remain alive will be gathered with them to the clouds as we are given our new glorified bodies clothed in fine linen, white and clean then will meet Christ in the air and at that time become His army that comes down with Him to earth and will be with the Lord forever here on earth, not in heaven, Rev 19.
Christ only comes down from heaven and never ascends back up again as at this time He establishes His kingdom here on earth and we reign with Him being priest and kings to God.
The hundred and forty four thousand that John sees standing with Jesus is not a literal numbering, but symbolic of those of Gods established covenant with faithful Abraham up through a thousand generations, Deuteronomy 7:9; Galatians 3:6, 7; 3:28, 29. These are they of great faith that have never allowed them selves to fall to temptations of the world. To the Jew first and then the Gentile who have gone on before us as together with them all who are alive or have died before the Lords return makes up the complete body of Christ, Ephesians 5:25-27.
Thank you for pointing out vs.17 as I meant "them" in vs.14.
Isaiah 11:2 The seven spirits that rest on Jesus are also given to us through the Holy Spirit. The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
We as being the body of Christ need to be likened to the Church of Philadelphia who walked in the Spirit of God and kept His word as all seven spirits that rested on Jesus also rest on them and on us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Okay and thank you dear Sister for_his_glory. Even though I don't believe as you do, I think I understand your outline of endtimes.
In your opinion what are the ramifications or consequence of not walking in the Spirit? Could walking as the other portions of the Church be reflected as they seem to be before the judgment seat of Christ right now, and only receive their reward when in Jesus' presence?
Even though we might not always agree the important thing is that we love each other and look forward to being gathered with Jesus in the new JerusalemOkay and thank you dear Sister for_his_glory. Even though I don't believe as you do, I think I understand your outline of endtimes.
:amenEven though we might not always agree the important thing is that we love each other and look forward to being gathered with Jesus in the new Jerusalem
If we are not walking in the Spirit then we are walking in the flesh and will fulfill the lust of it, Galatians 5:16.
Not sure what you mean by walking as the other portions of the Church? What are these portions?
As I understand we are always before the judgment seat of Christ as when He returns then will He reward every man according to his works, Matthew 16:26-28.
Again, all seven examples of the Church listed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three are believers on Christ, but with different commendations, or orders to repent.
Five examples of judgment of the one body of Christ:
Ephesus - Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
To understand the removing them from their former place you might compare the Breastplate of Judgment, and as you affirmed the fact we’re before the judgment seat of Christ right now. The order of tribes on the Ephods of Aaron’s shoulders is in order of birth (Exodus 28:8-10), and that of the Breastplate of Judgment is not; it ends up in the marching order. In other words Judah is now first after judgment on Aaron's heart. (Exodus 28:29) On the Breastplate of Judgment they are changed in order which are 10 full tribes and two half tribes; Joseph died and the tribe of Levi were priests and led the march by 2000 cubits and were not numbered with tribes of Israel.
Pergamos - Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam . .
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Thyatira - Rev 2:20 . . I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Sardis - Rev 3:1 . . I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Does this sound a bit like 1 Th 5:2? For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Laodiceans - Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Two examples of commendation to the Church in the following cities with promised rewards.
Smyrna – Rev 2:10 . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Philadelphia – Rev 3:10 Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (Or patiently kept My word.), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
Thank you for this. God loves His children and as a good Father will chastise them when they get out of line, but it's up to the children to obey their Father.Again, all seven examples of the Church listed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three are believers on Christ, but with different commendations, or orders to repent.
Five examples of judgment of the one body of Christ:
Ephesus - Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
To understand the removing them from their former place you might compare the Breastplate of Judgment, and as you affirmed the fact we’re before the judgment seat of Christ right now. The order of tribes on the Ephods of Aaron’s shoulders is in order of birth (Exodus 28:8-10), and that of the Breastplate of Judgment is not; it ends up in the marching order. In other words Judah is now first after judgment on Aaron's heart. (Exodus 28:29) On the Breastplate of Judgment they are changed in order which are 10 full tribes and two half tribes; Joseph died and the tribe of Levi were priests and led the march by 2000 cubits and were not numbered with tribes of Israel.
Pergamos - Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam . .
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Thyatira - Rev 2:20 . . I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Sardis - Rev 3:1 . . I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Does this sound a bit like 1 Th 5:2? For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Laodiceans - Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Two examples of commendation to the Church in the following cities with promised rewards.
Smyrna – Rev 2:10 . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Philadelphia – Rev 3:10 Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (Or patiently kept My word.), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
You're right but many will not adhere to the will of God completely, and thus miss the rewards they could have such as the twenty-four elders (Smyrna that remain faithful unto death and receive a crown, Rev 2:10 & Rev 4:4) and the four beasts (Philadelphia who faithfully keep the word of God Rev 3:10, remain alive, are kept from the temptation to come upon all the world, and they too have crowns, Rev 3:11).
Hopefully needless to mention, but these two portions of the Church are present with Jesus when He receives His own throne in heaven (Rev 4:2), and that prior to the Lord's Day beginning. John sees them round bout the throne (Rev 4:4), and in the midst of the throne (Rev 4:6).
Where is the remainder of the Church that were told to repent such as Thyatira in Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
This is not Jesus sitting on the throne in Rev 4:2,3, but God who is sitting there. When you read Rev 5:6, 7 the Lamb, which is in the midst of the throne, not sitting on the throne, is Jesus as He takes the book out of the right hand of God who sits on the throne.
Hebrews 10:12,13 says when Jesus ascended up to heaven after His crucifixion he sat down on the right hand of God until His enemies are made His footstool. Not all things have been subdued to Him yet. Jesus is not sitting on a throne, but only sitting beside the one who is sitting on the throne which is God. Jesus does not sit on a throne until he comes to earth in all His glory and his enemies are made His footstool and then He sits on His throne of glory in the New Jerusalem, Matthew 22:44; 25:31
There are different types of Churches. One is the true body of Christ like that of the Church of Philadelphia that walked according to Gods ordinances and are faithful to Him. Then you have the Church that is luke warm being neither hot nor cold as they walk according to their own works of righteousness and God will spew them out of His mouth. Then you have the Church that only gives lip service to the Lord and follow the Jezebel teachings never opening their Bible, but are led astray by false teachings and never come to true repentance. Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats and the sheep go to be with the Lord forever when Christ returns and the goats go to the lake of fire.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven (was this throne just set for our Father?), and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:8 . . . Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Jesus of Rev 1:8?)
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord (Jesus), to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things (Jn 1:3-4) (Col 1:16)
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Here I have to disagree as to the seven different locations of the One and only Church not being of God. To me they remain children of God, but are basically told to correct their walk or suffer different consequences, even told to Thyatira in Rev 2:22. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
th1b.taylor
Member
You didn't quote so who is that in answer to?
smaller
Member
Descriptive is literal. Just not literal in our senses of the term because they refer to REAL 'spiritual' unseen activity.
Just like "air" is not atmosphere. Eph. 2:2
smaller
Member
Again, all seven examples of the Church listed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three are believers on Christ, but with different commendations, or orders to repent.
Five examples of judgment of the one body of Christ:
Ephesus - Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
To understand the removing them from their former place you might compare the Breastplate of Judgment, and as you affirmed the fact we’re before the judgment seat of Christ right now. The order of tribes on the Ephods of Aaron’s shoulders is in order of birth (Exodus 28:8-10), and that of the Breastplate of Judgment is not; it ends up in the marching order. In other words Judah is now first after judgment on Aaron's heart. (Exodus 28:29) On the Breastplate of Judgment they are changed in order which are 10 full tribes and two half tribes; Joseph died and the tribe of Levi were priests and led the march by 2000 cubits and were not numbered with tribes of Israel.
Pergamos - Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam . .
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Thyatira - Rev 2:20 . . I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Sardis - Rev 3:1 . . I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Does this sound a bit like 1 Th 5:2? For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Laodiceans - Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Two examples of commendation to the Church in the following cities with promised rewards.
Smyrna – Rev 2:10 . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Philadelphia – Rev 3:10 Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (Or patiently kept My word.), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
And we as believers are directed to hear EVERY WORD to all the churches. Not just the parts we like and discard and defer the parts we don't like.
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches"
The standard method of supposed hearing is this:
OK. I read it. That part doesn't apply to me because I'm not in that church or doing what Jesus is pointing out in the adverse senses.
WHICH of course is entirely the point of NOT HEARING whatsoever.