Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[JLB]

Not by your wording of it.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded (First Resurrection before Rapture) Last Trumpet Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, there is no more salvation thru faith, since that which is unseen becomes seen.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Can you point out "my wording" in this verse.

 

[for_his_glory]

It sounds like we are making loops thru time, something doesn't fit with the
The antichrist is destroyed at His coming part.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

2 Thessalonians 2:6-9
even/then/also at this time/the present to see/to know
to hold back/detain/to possess into/for of them/he
disclose/reveal
in/by/with himself, herself, itself due measure/a measure of time
for hidden thing/secret/mystery violation of law/iniquity/wickedness be mighty in/shew forth self/to effect
now/already be mighty in/shew forth self/to effect
only/alone this moment/present to hold back/detain/to possess
until
to become/to arise/to be made out of/away from
middle/in the midst of
even/then/also then/at that time
disclose/reveal
destitute of (the Mosaic) law/lawless/wicked
disclose/reveal
who/which/what/that supreme in authority destroy/consume breath/wind/spirit
of them/he the edge of a sword/the mouth
even/then/also put an end to/inoperative an appearing/appearance
of them/he the coming/arrival/advent
who/which/what/that the coming/arrival/advent
to be down from/according to working/efficiency
adversary/Satan
in/by/with individually/collectively
miraculous power
even/then/also
a sign/mark/token (666? revelation 13:18 Revelation 14:9)
even/then/also
a lie/whatever is not what it seems to be
a prodigy or omen/miracle

future

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded (Rapture) Last Trumpet

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun (backwards time jump around 2-3 bc to present)

Revelation 13:1-18 beast and its mark (before last trumpet?)

Revelation 14:14-20 Sickle Harvest Wheat & Tares (Rapture) Back to Last Trumpet

Revelation 15-16 the seven last plagues/vials (future)

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates

??????
Revelation 16:13 three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon,
and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief (Rapture) Back to Last Trumpet

Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (future)

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air

Revelation 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Revelation 17-18 Harlot more beast stuff, sounds like islam and Saudi Arabia (backwards time jump to 500ad to present)

1 Thess 415-17 and 2Thess 2:6-9 is speaking about the beast out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth which is the son of perdition being the false prophet that will show great signs in the sky and promises peace and safety to all who will bow down to this one world political, economic and religious system. This beast out of the earth will even be able to deceive the very elect if possible. Rev Chapter 13; Matthew 24:24.

Rev 19 shows where we now come back with Jesus having been caught up to the clouds to meet Him in the air for the marriage of the Lamb has come and we are now clothed in fine linen, clean and white. We are His army that comes down to earth with Him as He destroys the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth and then we are with the Lord forever.

 

[for_his_glory]

If I write a paragraph or 2 like Paul did describing the book of revelation I would refer to the book of revelation for clarity. I wouldn't change the book of revelation to match the 2 paragraphs.

It takes the whole of scripture from Genesis to Revelation to cross reference that of what the OT prophets prophesied that is revealed and fulfilled in the NT and those things that will be fulfilled in the end of days.

 

[JLB]

It sounds like we are making loops thru time, something doesn't fit with the
The antichrist is destroyed at His coming part.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The brightness of His coming will destroy the antichrist, the man of sin, the lawless one.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12


The same coming of the Lord that causes the gathering of His people, is also the same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.


JLB

 

[markathome]

BRIGHTNESS isn't there. Adding the word changes the meaning of the sentence.
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm

2 Thessalonians 2:8 [even/then/also~kai] [then/at that time~tote] [disclose/reveal~apokalupto] [destitute of (the Mosaic) law/lawless/wicked~anomos] [disclose/reveal~apokalupto] [who/which/what/that~hos] [supreme in authority~kurios] [destroy/consume~analisko] [breath/wind/spirit~pneuma] [of them/he~autos] [the edge of a sword/the mouth~stoma] [even/then/also~kai] [put an end to/inoperative~katargeo] [an appearing/appearance~epiphaneia] [of them/he~autos] [the coming/arrival/advent~parousia]
http://www.web-ministry.com/recycle/index.php?BOOK=53&CHAPTER=2&VERSE=8

 

[JLB]

BRIGHTNESS isn't there. Adding the word changes the meaning of the sentence.
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm

2 Thessalonians 2:8 [even/then/also~kai] [then/at that time~tote] [disclose/reveal~apokalupto] [destitute of (the Mosaic) law/lawless/wicked~anomos] [disclose/reveal~apokalupto] [who/which/what/that~hos] [supreme in authority~kurios] [destroy/consume~analisko] [breath/wind/spirit~pneuma] [of them/he~autos] [the edge of a sword/the mouth~stoma] [even/then/also~kai] [put an end to/inoperative~katargeo] [an appearing/appearance~epiphaneia] [of them/he~autos] [the coming/arrival/advent~parousia]
http://www.web-ministry.com/recycle/index.php?BOOK=53&CHAPTER=2&VERSE=8

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. NKJV

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: KJV

Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming. NASB

And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. NIV

and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence, YLT

It is the same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist, that also brings about the gathering of His people.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the ________ of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8


JLB

 

[markathome]

Another example of same word 2015. epiphaneia

2 Timothy 1-10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

But is now made manifest by the brightness of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2015 (epipháneia) literally suggests an appearing that builds on (Gk epi) on the characteristics of a particular situation.

 

[for_his_glory]

BRIGHTNESS isn't there. Adding the word changes the meaning of the sentence.
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm

2 Thessalonians 2:8 [even/then/also~kai] [then/at that time~tote] [disclose/reveal~apokalupto] [destitute of (the Mosaic) law/lawless/wicked~anomos] [disclose/reveal~apokalupto] [who/which/what/that~hos] [supreme in authority~kurios] [destroy/consume~analisko] [breath/wind/spirit~pneuma] [of them/he~autos] [the edge of a sword/the mouth~stoma] [even/then/also~kai] [put an end to/inoperative~katargeo] [an appearing/appearance~epiphaneia] [of them/he~autos] [the coming/arrival/advent~parousia]
http://www.web-ministry.com/recycle/index.php?BOOK=53&CHAPTER=2&VERSE=8

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Both these verses are speaking about the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth, Rev 13, who will cause a falling away in.
Vs. 3 The man of sin being the son of perdition is the false prophet that will go out and deceive the world
vs. 8 Wicked be revealed and consumed with the spirit of his mouth, Rev 19:15, shall destroy with the brightness of the coming of Jesus.

 

[markathome]

BRIGHTNESS?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἐπιφάνεια

ἐπιφάνεια

ἐπιφάνεια • ‎(epipháneia) f ‎(genitive ἐπιφανείας); first declension

1. appearance, manifestation (especially of a divine or royal figure)
2. visible portion, surface
3. appearance, pretense
4. fame, distinction

 

[JLB]

Another example of same word 2015. epiphaneia

2 Timothy 1-10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

But is now made manifest by the brightness of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2015 (epipháneia) literally suggests an appearing that builds on (Gk epi) on the characteristics of a particular situation.

You seem to be missing the point.

The coming of the Lord that gathers His people, is the same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.

It doesn't matter what commentary you read, or if the word is brightness or appearing or manifestation, but the fact that the antichrist is destroyed at His coming, the same coming, by which His people are gathered.

The coming of the Lord results in: The gathering [resurrection/rapture] of His people and the destruction of the antichrist.


Can you see this?



JLB

 

[markathome]

If you wish to change it to something else after being shown it's not there then what else is changed?
It doesn't end with one word you know.
Then Apostasy is changed to Rapture to suit, etc , etc
Once its done the action of repeating it is of no concern.

I take Revelation 22:18 quite seriously.

 

[for_his_glory]

*edit*

 

[for_his_glory]

markathome, where in scripture does it speak of Jesus coming back from heaven twice and how can you not see the word brightness right there in that verse being the glory of Christ who will reveal and destroy that wicked one in whom is the son of perdition that will cause many to take his mark and bow down and worship him.

2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[JLB]

If you wish to change it to something else after being shown it's not there then what else is changed?
It doesn't end with one word you know.
Then Apostasy is changed to Rapture to suit, etc , etc
Once its done the action of repeating it is of no concern.

I take Revelation 22:18 quite seriously.

The apostasy comes before His coming and the gathering [resurrection/rapture]. That's the point.

...for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

If you wish to change it to something else after being shown it's not there

Please point out what I have changed?


The coming of the Lord that gathers His people, is the same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.

It doesn't matter what commentary you read, or if the word is brightness or appearing or manifestation, but the fact that the antichrist is destroyed at His coming, the same coming, by which His people are gathered.

The coming of the Lord results in: The gathering [resurrection/rapture] of His people and the destruction of the antichrist.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 Thessalonians 2:1

• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The coming of the Lord = Gathering of His people.
The coming of the Lord = Destruction of the antichrist


JLB

 

[markathome]

Because

ἀπαύγασμα != ἐπιφάνεια​

I can clearly see the difference & I'm over 1/2 blind, why can't you see the difference?

Hebrews 1:3 -brightness
Strong's Dictionary Number: 541
1 Original Word: ἀπαύγασμα
2 Word Origin: from a compound of (575) and (826)
3 Transliterated Word: apaugasma
4 TDNT/TWOT Entry: 1:508,87
5 Phonetic Spelling: ap-ow'-gas-mah
6 Part of Speech: Noun Neuter
7 Strong's Definition: from a compound of [575]575 and [826;]826; an off-flash, i.e. effulgence:--brightness.
8 Definition:

1. reflected brightness
   1. of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God
2. effulgence
   1. shining forth, of a light coming from a luminous body (Vine)
   2. out-raying (Vincent)

9 English:
0 Usage: brightness

2Thessalonians 2:8
Strong's Dictionary Number: 2015
an appearing, appearance
number - 2015
orig_word - ἐπιφάνεια
word_orig - from (2016)
translit - epiphaneia
tdnt - 9:7,1244
phonetic - ep-if-an'-i-ah
part_of_speech - Noun Feminine
st_def - from «2016»; a manifestation, i.e. (specially) the advent of Christ (past or future):--appearing, brightness.
IPD_def -

1. an appearing, appearance

English - an appearing/appearance

 

[JLB]

Because

ἀπαύγασμα != ἐπιφάνεια​

I can clearly see the difference & I'm over 1/2 blind, why can't you see the difference?

Hebrews 1:3 -brightness
Strong's Dictionary Number: 541
1 Original Word: ἀπαύγασμα
2 Word Origin: from a compound of (575) and (826)
3 Transliterated Word: apaugasma
4 TDNT/TWOT Entry: 1:508,87
5 Phonetic Spelling: ap-ow'-gas-mah
6 Part of Speech: Noun Neuter
7 Strong's Definition: from a compound of [575]575 and [826;]826; an off-flash, i.e. effulgence:--brightness.
8 Definition:

1. reflected brightness
   1. of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God
2. effulgence
   1. shining forth, of a light coming from a luminous body (Vine)
   2. out-raying (Vincent)

9 English:
0 Usage: brightness

2Thessalonians 2:8
Strong's Dictionary Number: 2015
an appearing, appearance
number - 2015
orig_word - ἐπιφάνεια
word_orig - from (2016)
translit - epiphaneia
tdnt - 9:7,1244
phonetic - ep-if-an'-i-ah
part_of_speech - Noun Feminine
st_def - from «2016»; a manifestation, i.e. (specially) the advent of Christ (past or future):--appearing, brightness.
IPD_def -

1. an appearing, appearance

English - an appearing/appearance

What difference are you referring to sir?

Brightness is not the subject. The subject is the coming of the Lord.

If you don't like the way the King James or the New King James has the word brightness, translated, then that's just fine, the result is still the same at the coming of the Lord.

These two things happen at His coming.

The gathering of His people and the destroying of the antichrist.

The coming of the Lord results in: The gathering [resurrection/rapture] of His people and the destruction of the antichrist.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 Thessalonians 2:1

• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The coming of the Lord = Gathering of His people.
The coming of the Lord = Destruction of the antichrist


Could you please specifically describe what you disagree with me about in this post?


JLB

 

[markathome]

First you're not even reading what I have been writing or even trying to understand it.
If so you wouldn't even be asking such a question as I have already answered it multiple times.
You are just repeating the words from a book of poetry & refusing to look any deeper.

 

[reba]

ADMIN speaking here.. Slow down guys.. the fight is getting personal.. remember we all post from our own frame of mind... we know what we are thinking the other guy does not.. and words on the screen do not have the advantage of facial expression ...
Example ...
If i say ...Wow that water is running fast !
Do i mean a hose, a creek, a river ,the kitchen sink. .. Simple misunderstandings often do not need to be...

Not necessarily directed at the last poster..

 

[turnorburn]

I dont believe in pre trib rapture because Christ never promised anyone protection from trials and tribulation, everyone goes through trials and tribulations in life.

That's what my wife said when i was telling her about the made by man story.. that was in the 70's

 

[turnorburn]

ADMIN speaking here.. Slow down guys.. the fight is getting personal.. remember we all post from our own frame of mind... we know what we are thinking the other guy does not.. and words on the screen do not have the advantage of facial expression ...
Example ...
If i say ...Wow that water is running fast !
Do i mean a hose, a creek, a river ,the kitchen sink. .. Simple misunderstandings often do not need to be...

Not necessarily directed at the last poster..

Or you might mean this..