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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural
- Thread starter for_his_glory
- Start date
No luck about it. Those who are of the Father and still alive during Gods final wrath on those who refuse to repent has His seal set upon them that none of Gods wrath will touch them, Ephesians 4:30. We are not to fear them that can kill our body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Man has no excuse even if someone has not preached the word to them even if they live in such a remote area that they have never heard His name mentioned. God has put this knowledge in their hearts from the beginning of creation and knowing God in all His creation comes to us naturally as it is not something we have to learn first.
Those who pick up a Bible and read John 3:16 can be saved without someone physically preaching the gospel to them for God will draw them to Him at that moment and make them to understand that of what they have read. God can and will reveal Himself to anyone, anywhere without sending them a preacher first.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Man has no excuse even if someone has not preached the word to them even if they live in such a remote area that they have never heard His name mentioned. God has put this knowledge in their hearts from the beginning of creation and knowing God in all His creation comes to us naturally as it is not something we have to learn first.
Those who pick up a Bible and read John 3:16 can be saved without someone physically preaching the gospel to them for God will draw them to Him at that moment and make them to understand that of what they have read. God can and will reveal Himself to anyone, anywhere without sending them a preacher first.
Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8. Only God can give power to act on His word as the Holy Spirit and Jesus bare witness to Gods power and authority especially through signs and wonders.
God exercises His power and authority through those of His great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 1:22, who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. The sackcloth represents the anguish of Gods servants as they remain humbled before the Lord while baring witness to Gods wrath on the unrighteous as they go forth continuing to preach to the nations.
Zechariah speaks of two olive trees, but only one candlestick in the Old Testament. In this study we read there are two candlesticks. The two olive trees are the two anointed ones as being the two witnesses that are the Holy Spirit whom discerns and confirms the word of God in us by teaching us all truths, John 14:26, and Jesus being the light that shines in darkness as being the word made flesh to walk amongst us, John 1:1-5.
John is given the understanding that the two witnesses are in comparison to the two candlesticks and two olive trees, which if you read Zechariah Chapter 4 it explains that the golden candlestick is God. The seven lamps with the seven pipes that holds the oil (anointing) is that of the seven Spirits of God given to His Church: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and Spirit of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2.
The two olive trees are to groups of people. One group being natural Israel (Old Testament) as a remnant according to the election of grace have been saved as in the 144,000 taken from the twelve tribes of Israel that remained faithful to God up to a thousand generations thereafter that remain faithful, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17. The other being Gentiles (New Testament) grafted into the branch by that same grace of God that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by His Holy Spirit, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Romans Chapter 11. The two witnesses have always been those who have stood by God and His law in the Old Testament and those who stand by God and Jesus under the dispensation of grace in the New Testament.
markathome
Member
The antichrist won't be revealed till the end of it, so nobody will know who he is even after the 2 preachers are killed by him, nobody will know who he is.
After the antichrist is defeated & revealed, there will be no thousand years reign of Christ which afterwards satan will also be cast into hell where the antichrist and false prophet are.
It's all instant, edited reba
After the antichrist is defeated & revealed, there will be no thousand years reign of Christ which afterwards satan will also be cast into hell where the antichrist and false prophet are.
It's all instant, edited reba
When one learns there is not just one antichrist, but many that even now work in the world then one will understand what the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth are who will cause many to bow down to him and take his mark of this beast, Rev 13.
2Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
2John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
markathome
Member
Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day,
Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name...
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you!
Many will say to me on that day,
Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name...
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you!
Explain please?
Cygnus
Member
I have to disagree..if you don't mind.
Many will be able to pick up the bible and read of the event. There's no reason why they won't be able to connect the dots.
Endtime_Survivors
Member
The context doesn't appear to be either a command or a guarantee (i.e. that people can only believe if they hear a human being speak the words). He's just saying that we're supposed to preach the gospel. That's how the majority of people will hear about the message.
As far as hearing goes, it's not only people who can speak (1 John 2:27).
It is the Spirit of Christ [the anointed One] speaking through those He sent, which is the point.
If Christ didn't need His Apostles [sent one] to do the actually preaching, then why did He say... 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 24:18-20
Does that mean it's "impossible" for the Lord to lead someone who is lost to open the bible to John 3:16? No.
Does that mean the church is to be raptured before the tribulation? Certainly Not! Which is the point.
The same coming of the Lord, by which the Church is gathered in the resurrection/rapture, is the same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
JLB
Endtime_Survivors
Member
I think there may be a misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting at all that we're not called to preach the gospel. I think all Christians are sent, and that's what we should be doing, in one way or another as we have ability. Definitely.
I'm suggesting that God could lead someone without a preacher or a Bible (through the Holy Spirit). That doesn't mean we shouldn't do our part. It just means that the preaching is for humanity's benefit (as opposed to God needing our help), not only for those we preach to, but for ourselves as well.
I very much agree. What's the point of being a witness if we run away when the world will need our guidance the most? A pre-trib rapture makes no sense in the context of us doing our jobs as Christians. So, while God could reach the world without us, all the information we have indicates that he does not want to do it that way. He wants us to take responsibility for our brothers and sisters by being ready and available to witness to them even if it does cost us our lives.
People who suggest that God will take us out of the way to spare us from suffering miss the point of what it means to suffer for something. As the saying goes, if we don't have anything worth dying for, do we really have anything worth living for?
You believe all Christians are Apostles?
How did you come to this conclusion?
Is there a particular scripture that inspired this idea?
I believe we are all called to be led by the Spirit.
I don't believe we are all called to be Apostles or Pastors, or Prophets, or Evangelist's or Teachers.
JLB
Endtime_Survivors
Member
1Corinthians 12:28-31 says God has set some, but not all as Apostles as He has given different gifts to different people for His purpose within His ministry here on earth. The Apostles were and still are sent out on missionary trips to set up the Church, not made by hands, but establishing the true body of Christ in all nations.
Not all are called as Apostles, but we are all called to be a witness and to testify of Christ as we will continue to do so until the end of days. We who are still alive during the time of a greater and final tribulation of Gods great wrath, Matthew 24:21, are those of being the two witnesses in Rev 11:1-14 as the two witnesses are explained in Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 as being the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints and are sealed with His Holy Spirit, Ephesians 4:30 as we continue to witness and testify of Christ to those who will finally have ears to hear. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8.
Joel 2:1-11 is a cross reference for Rev 19 as we are that army that comes back with Christ when we meet Him in the air and are clothed in fine linen, clean and white, 1Corinthians 15:52-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.
Joel 2:28-32 speaks about a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the latter days before the great and terrible day of the Lord. God will revive a Spiritual revival in the end of days as He would that none should perish, 2Peter 3:9, as He works through the Church (body of Christ) who has the witness and testimony of Jesus. During this time of Gods great wrath being poured out on those who refuse to repent we are safe guarded by the Holy Spirit from Gods wrath falling on us, but will still face much persecution, even to death, but not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.
Not all are called as Apostles, but we are all called to be a witness and to testify of Christ as we will continue to do so until the end of days. We who are still alive during the time of a greater and final tribulation of Gods great wrath, Matthew 24:21, are those of being the two witnesses in Rev 11:1-14 as the two witnesses are explained in Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 as being the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints and are sealed with His Holy Spirit, Ephesians 4:30 as we continue to witness and testify of Christ to those who will finally have ears to hear. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8.
Joel 2:1-11 is a cross reference for Rev 19 as we are that army that comes back with Christ when we meet Him in the air and are clothed in fine linen, clean and white, 1Corinthians 15:52-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.
Joel 2:28-32 speaks about a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the latter days before the great and terrible day of the Lord. God will revive a Spiritual revival in the end of days as He would that none should perish, 2Peter 3:9, as He works through the Church (body of Christ) who has the witness and testimony of Jesus. During this time of Gods great wrath being poured out on those who refuse to repent we are safe guarded by the Holy Spirit from Gods wrath falling on us, but will still face much persecution, even to death, but not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.
Duplicate
We are not all called to do that. That's what Pastors tell there people, so they can have more people come to Church and pay tithes.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:18-20
Who was Jesus speaking to?
There are many who have went, but very few were sent by Him.
"Go" is the sending [Apostle] that gives these men who Jesus Christ spent 3 1/2 years with, teaching them and empowering them with His authority and power, to reproduce His life in others [make disciples].
Apostle means sent.
First you must become a disciple, before you are an Apostle.
Now, as I said before we are all called to be led by the Spirit: to pray, to study, to witness, to lay hands on the sick and see them recover, to prophesy, to cast out devils, to take care of our families and provide for them.
Here are some qualifications for being... not an Apostle, not even a Pastor, or a Bishop but a Deacon -
Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 3:8-13
There are many today who claim to be Apostles or pastors or Bishops, that honestly don't even qualify to be a deacon.
Here's what Paul taught us about this -
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8
Let me now be crystal clear -
Men who have decided to be in the "full time ministry" and claim "God" has called them, and
quit their job, [or like some pastors, have never worked a day in their life] and do not provide for their families, the Holy Spirit says -
...he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Most people can not even tell you what the Gospel is, or what it means, much less have ever been discipled by an Apostle.
JLB
Endtime_Survivors
Member
If the disciples were to properly obey this teaching then that would, of course, include the command to go into all the world teaching others to also obey all things he commanded them to do and those people would then do the same for others and so on.
Maybe the confusion comes from "go into all the world" as though evangelizing or witnessing necessitates that we go far away. I don't think that's the case at all, though it could be. "Just down the street" is still part of "all the world". It's not where we go so much as just getting out the front door to begin with.
Considering Jesus told us to "pray for laborers because the harvest is ready and the laborers are few" I'd say it's down right sad to hear any person discouraged from getting out there to preach the gospel just because they don't fit whatever theological formula we've concocted for what it means to be "sent".
These various echelons of power within the church; they seem to have become something more than what Paul intended. It's fine to have titles to describe the various abilities or callings of believers, but from the way you describe it these titles have become divisive. Organization of abilities is fine, but not when it comes to suggesting that some people cannot (or should not?) progress beyond whatever level they may currently be at.
It sounds like it's time to just get back to the basics.
MT 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
I believe there is another misunderstanding here. This verse about a man providing for his own family, it's very similar to "Those who do not work, should not eat". Almost always, modern day Christians automatically associate both of these verses with service to mammon (i.e. money and the things money can buy).
But that's neither what the verse actually says, nor is it the context. Paul was writing to Christian communities. In acts we see these communities sold everything they had and shared all things in common according to their various needs. No on lacked anything because they shared. Thousands were joining this new movement of the spirit.
In such situations it's very easy for lazy people to come into the community and expect everyone else to take care of them. It is the "utopian fantasy" principle. So Paul instituted a rule; people could come into the community and enjoy the positive vibes all they like, but if they didn't work (in the community) then they should not eat (in the community). When they got hungry enough they would either contribute or leave. Simple and effective.
It's the same with a man providing for his own family. In a community setting it's easy to assume other people will be fine to babysit, teach the kids, feed the kids, discipline the kids or perhaps spouses to neglect one another on the understanding that the "community vibes" will be enough to keep them happy. If a wife gossips in the community, any community member can challenge her on it, but it really should fall on the husband to do that before there is any need for others to do it. If a husband starts behaving inappropriately toward other women in the community, then any community member can challenge him on that, but it really should be the wife's responsibility to do that before there is any need for others to do it.
Even in a community setting where everyone is sharing with and helping one another, a man must still be responsible for his own family unit rather than assuming it's the responsibility of everyone else.
Endtime_Survivors
Member
duplicate
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It's also sad that folks who can't and won't submit to authority, in order to be discipled, think they can bypass being a disciple, and think they themselves can make disciples.
The Principle: How can you say you submit to God, whom you can not see, if first you have not submitted to God's appointed authority you can see.
Again, we all are called to be led by the Spirit of God, to witness to other's about Christ, and to share our testimony.
I agree with what you say here, however it doesn't seem to recognize or understand what I wrote about the qualifications about deacons.
I agree.
I agree with the community mindset, and it's applications.
However, the example from Acts 4 in Jerusalem with the apostles, was not always the case when Paul raised up Churches among the Gentiles.
Paul was writing to Timothy, and young Pastor whom Paul left in Charge of that Church, and it's doubtful there was folks going out and selling their lands and homes and laying the proceeds at his feet.
It would be hard for someone to misunderstand these plain words...
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8
If you want to continue this line of discussion, please start a thread about it, or PM me.
Thanks and God Bless you.
JLB
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