Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Rondmon]

Hi all. In Matthew 24 Jesus says a lot about the last days. In verse 15 he talks about the "abomination of Desolation". It's not exactly clear what that is, but I think it's relevant to this thread in that it seems to mark the start of the Great Tribulation. He follows on saying that people should flee, be prepared to hide, and that they will be taken care of by God in the "wilderness" (compare Matthew 24:28 and Revelation 12:14) for a period of 3.5 years.

Then he describes a situation which sounds like panic. All this trouble starts, and false prophets come along saying that Jesus has returned secretly in the "secret chambers" or "out in the desert" and that we should not listen to them because his return will be visible and undeniable. It won't be secret. It sounds very much like a situation where people had expected him to return before the troubles started, and when he doesn't, they panic and create alternative theories about a secret appearance rather than just accept that they were wrong about the timing.

He then goes on to say, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" is when he will return. When I read the context of the bigger picture, about how all Christians will suffer persecution, and how the saints overcome the Beast by "not loving their lives even unto death" and how we should not fear what people can do to the body, and how we are meant to be a light to the world despite persecutions and afflictions, it just makes no sense that God would remove his witnesses when the world will need them the most.

Hello brother in Christ Jesus, as per what the Abomination of Desolation is, go to the thread about the Temple and go to my post on page 5, I did an in-depth study on this, it matches up with Rev. 13, let me know on the other thread what you think. As per this thread............

You are correct, people will flee to the wilderness, the Jewish people whom God will protect in the wilderness for 1260 days. We know this because John used Old Testament verbiage in like 284 of 404 Revelation verses, we just have to solve the riddle. The Woman in Rev.12 was clothed with the Sun, Moon, and 12 Stars. In Josephs dream in Egypt, he saw the Sun (Jacob), Moon (Mother) and 11 Stars (Brothers) paying obeisance unto him, so this "Woman" is no doubt Israel. Israel birthed the Baby, (Jesus) the Dragon (Satan) sought to kill it, but Jesus the Man Child was sacrificed and ascended to the Right Hand of God the Father. All in Rev. 12.

It will be pandemonium, of course because Gods judgments are about to be brought to pass. Many will die, the Ant-Christ is a judgment against the earth, the first Judgment/Seal.

It is true that Christians will suffer great persecution, but not the Church which was Raptured, is in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb (Rev. 19) and who come back with Jesus on White Horses in Rev. 19. (Immediately after the Tribulation). Why do people not see this ? Just because the Church is Raptured, has no bearing on when the Second Coming is. As a matter of fact we know the exact day of the Second Coming, it will be 1260 Days (31/2 years) after the Anti-Christ/Beast stands in the Temple and declares himself GOD !! That is what the Word says, he has 1260 days to reign terror. We do not know the Day of the Rapture, that is the Secret. The Saints in Revelation are those that gave their lives to Christ after the Rapture.

The 144,000 K super preachers, the Two Witnesses and Angels will preach Gods word during this time.

God Bless.

 

[Eugene]

John described the Woman as being clothed in the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars in Rev. 12. So by studying Genesis we see that Joseph had a dream that the Sun, Moon and 11 Stars (he being the 12th Star no doubt) would pay obeisance unto him. So by reading and studying, we understand that the Woman, is no doubt Israel. not the Church.

Brother Rondmon, I agree with your assessment of the "Wonder" woman of Rev 12:1 being Israel, and in that thought, who do you say that the Man Child of Rev 12:5 is that she gives birth to? Thanks.

I'm editing this post to note that I missed a portion of your post stating who you believe the Man Child is. Brother JLB caught my error. I do not agree with you that the Man Child is Jesus since Rev 4:1 forward is speaking of things which must be hereafter, and that from the perspective of The Lord's Day (Rev 1:10).

 

[JLB]

Brother Rondmon, I agree with your assessment of the "Wonder" woman of Rev 12:1 being Israel, and in that thought, who do you say that the Man Child of Rev 12:5 is that she gives birth to? Thanks.

His answer from his post -

The Woman in Rev.12 was clothed with the Sun, Moon, and 12 Stars. In Josephs dream in Egypt, he saw the Sun (Jacob), Moon (Mother) and 11 Stars (Brothers) paying obeisance unto him, so this "Woman" is no doubt Israel. Israel birthed the Baby, (Jesus) the Dragon (Satan) sought to kill it, but Jesus the Man Child was sacrificed and ascended to the Right Hand of God the Father. All in Rev. 12.

 

[JLB]

Hello brother in Christ Jesus, as per what the Abomination of Desolation is, go to the thread about the Temple and go to my post on page 5, I did an in-depth study on this, it matches up with Rev. 13, let me know on the other thread what you think. As per this thread............

You are correct, people will flee to the wilderness, the Jewish people whom God will protect in the wilderness for 1260 days. We know this because John used Old Testament verbiage in like 284 of 404 Revelation verses, we just have to solve the riddle. The Woman in Rev.12 was clothed with the Sun, Moon, and 12 Stars. In Josephs dream in Egypt, he saw the Sun (Jacob), Moon (Mother) and 11 Stars (Brothers) paying obeisance unto him, so this "Woman" is no doubt Israel. Israel birthed the Baby, (Jesus) the Dragon (Satan) sought to kill it, but Jesus the Man Child was sacrificed and ascended to the Right Hand of God the Father. All in Rev. 12.

It will be pandemonium, of course because Gods judgments are about to be brought to pass. Many will die, the Ant-Christ is a judgment against the earth, the first Judgment/Seal.

It is true that Christians will suffer great persecution, but not the Church which was Raptured, is in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb (Rev. 19) and who come back with Jesus on White Horses in Rev. 19. (Immediately after the Tribulation). Why do people not see this ? Just because the Church is Raptured, has no bearing on when the Second Coming is. As a matter of fact we know the exact day of the Second Coming, it will be 1260 Days (31/2 years) after the Anti-Christ/Beast stands in the Temple and declares himself GOD !! That is what the Word says, he has 1260 days to reign terror. We do not know the Day of the Rapture, that is the Secret. The Saints in Revelation are those that gave their lives to Christ after the Rapture.

The 144,000 K super preachers, the Two Witnesses and Angels will preach Gods word during this time.

God Bless.

Brother Rondmon, I agree with your assessment of the "Wonder" woman of Rev 12:1 being Israel, and in that thought, who do you say that the Man Child of Rev 12:5 is that she gives birth to? Thanks.

The Church, The ecclesia, The called out ones, the holy nation of God, began with Abraham.

Israel is the Church; The Church is the Israel of God, being the body of Christ.



JLB

 

[turnorburn]

That is because you want to look "only" at the word Anti-Christ. There is "ONE ANTICHRIST" as understood by scriptures, upon what we as Christians are referring to. We Christians have brought under one umbrella, all the names of "This Man" and refer to him as the Anti-Christ, a name is nothing but a name. No where in the bible is the Trinity used, but we Christians understand that God the Father, God the Son and God the Comforter are one and the same or 3 in 1 or the Trinity.

There is "One Man" referred to throughout scriptures, by different names, I am sure if the prophets and disciples would have been allowed to give his Real Name, they all would have said the same name, but God wants that to be a secret, and instead decided to allow only descriptions of who this man will be and his likeness.

Man of Sin, Little Horn, Man of Lawlessness, Man of Perdition, Beast that comes out of the Sea, the Assyrian etc. etc.These are all speaking of this One Man, that all Christians have come to know as "The Anti-Christ". I have zero problem with this moniker. For this Beast with be Anti Christian, and will try to sell himself as the savior of all man kind, and will conquer the earth and kill many.

Judas was one such person.. he betrayed Jesus with a kiss.. all lovey dove and such..

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi all. In Matthew 24 Jesus says a lot about the last days. In verse 15 he talks about the "abomination of Desolation". It's not exactly clear what that is, but I think it's relevant to this thread in that it seems to mark the start of the Great Tribulation. He follows on saying that people should flee, be prepared to hide, and that they will be taken care of by God in the "wilderness" (compare Matthew 24:28 and Revelation 12:14) for a period of 3.5 years.

Then he describes a situation which sounds like panic. All this trouble starts, and false prophets come along saying that Jesus has returned secretly in the "secret chambers" or "out in the desert" and that we should not listen to them because his return will be visible and undeniable. It won't be secret. It sounds very much like a situation where people had expected him to return before the troubles started, and when he doesn't, they panic and create alternative theories about a secret appearance rather than just accept that they were wrong about the timing.

He then goes on to say, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" is when he will return. When I read the context of the bigger picture, about how all Christians will suffer persecution, and how the saints overcome the Beast by "not loving their lives even unto death" and how we should not fear what people can do to the body, and how we are meant to be a light to the world despite persecutions and afflictions, it just makes no sense that God would remove his witnesses when the world will need them the most.

Very good summation for this whole topic, thank you.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello brother in Christ Jesus, as per what the Abomination of Desolation is, go to the thread about the Temple and go to my post on page 5, I did an in-depth study on this, it matches up with Rev. 13, let me know on the other thread what you think. As per this thread............

You are correct, people will flee to the wilderness, the Jewish people whom God will protect in the wilderness for 1260 days. We know this because John used Old Testament verbiage in like 284 of 404 Revelation verses, we just have to solve the riddle. The Woman in Rev.12 was clothed with the Sun, Moon, and 12 Stars. In Josephs dream in Egypt, he saw the Sun (Jacob), Moon (Mother) and 11 Stars (Brothers) paying obeisance unto him, so this "Woman" is no doubt Israel. Israel birthed the Baby, (Jesus) the Dragon (Satan) sought to kill it, but Jesus the Man Child was sacrificed and ascended to the Right Hand of God the Father. All in Rev. 12.

It will be pandemonium, of course because Gods judgments are about to be brought to pass. Many will die, the Ant-Christ is a judgment against the earth, the first Judgment/Seal.

It is true that Christians will suffer great persecution, but not the Church which was Raptured, is in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb (Rev. 19) and who come back with Jesus on White Horses in Rev. 19. (Immediately after the Tribulation). Why do people not see this ? Just because the Church is Raptured, has no bearing on when the Second Coming is. As a matter of fact we know the exact day of the Second Coming, it will be 1260 Days (31/2 years) after the Anti-Christ/Beast stands in the Temple and declares himself GOD !! That is what the Word says, he has 1260 days to reign terror. We do not know the Day of the Rapture, that is the Secret. The Saints in Revelation are those that gave their lives to Christ after the Rapture.

The 144,000 K super preachers, the Two Witnesses and Angels will preach Gods word during this time.

God Bless.

So, you are saying Jesus will come back a third time for I only read two times in scripture? The first was when Jesus spoke to Mary at the tomb and told her not to touch Him for He had not ascended yet and then He ascended to the Father. Then He came down from heaven in His glorified body as He came to the upper room and filled the disciples with the Holy Spirit. After that he showed Himself three times to the disciples and then ascended back up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God until the day of His second coming when He will return to the air, meaning earth's atmosphere and we are caught up to meet Him in the air then proceed back to earth with Him at that time and will be ever more with Him, John 20, 21; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19.

BTW, no one can say exactly by days or years when Christ will return as God is the only one who knows, Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I have already given the scriptures that speak about the Church still being here through all the trumpet and vial judgments, but will list them again:

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. We can only repent through Gods Spirit and if that Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers then who would be left for anyone to repent if they wanted to if we were already gone as faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[for_his_glory]

You are correct, people will flee to the wilderness, the Jewish people whom God will protect in the wilderness for 1260 days. We know this because John used Old Testament verbiage in like 284 of 404 Revelation verses, we just have to solve the riddle. The Woman in Rev.12 was clothed with the Sun, Moon, and 12 Stars. In Josephs dream in Egypt, he saw the Sun (Jacob), Moon (Mother) and 11 Stars (Brothers) paying obeisance unto him, so this "Woman" is no doubt Israel. Israel birthed the Baby, (Jesus) the Dragon (Satan) sought to kill it, but Jesus the Man Child was sacrificed and ascended to the Right Hand of God the Father. All in Rev. 12.

There is no riddle if you know who the woman is in Rev 12.

John is shown a great sign in heaven as he sees a vision of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. The sun is representative of the glory and brilliance of Gods righteousness that surrounds her and protects her. Under her feet the moon which is illustrative of eternity, light, Gods faithfulness in His Son Jesus who is the greater light of the gospel age as Jesus being the light of the world that shines in darkness, but the darkness can not comprehend the light, Psalms 72:5-7; Isaiah 2:3-5; Jeremiah 31:35-37; Isaiah 30:26-33; John 1:1-5.

The woman is the congregation of Gods people as she wears a crown of twelve stars which represents the twelve tribes of Israel that have repented of their arrogance as they felt they deserved Gods favor, but yet kept killing the prophets God sent to them, including the very Messiah they were waiting for. This is when the times of the Gentiles began as God went to them to take Himself a people that were humbled enough to receive salvation as God had mercy on them, Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14; Romans 11:25-27.

Paul also warned the Gentiles against being lifted up in pride because they had been favored by God with salvation as he explained the blindness of Israel would not last forever as when they see the Gentiles now having favor in the Lord and being grafted into the branch of Israel they repent of their sin and turn back to God being once again found in His favor, Romans Chapter 11.

The true congregation of God can be symbolized here as a mother that has all here children gathered in one place for safety which in this case is under the wings of the almighty God, Psalms 91. She cries out like a woman in labor as the pain of her persecutions has become too great to bear as she waits to be delivered from her persecutors, 2 Timothy 4:18; 2 Peter 2:9; Colossians 1:13.

 

[Jim Parker]

When I read the context of the bigger picture, about how all Christians will suffer persecution, and how the saints overcome the Beast by "not loving their lives even unto death" and how we should not fear what people can do to the body, and how we are meant to be a light to the world despite persecutions and afflictions, it just makes no sense that God would remove his witnesses when the world will need them the most.

That seems to me to be a good observation.

iakov the fool

 

[Eugene]

Israel is the Church; The Church is the Israel of God, being the body of Christ.

Brother JLB, I’m not sure what you’re getting at suggesting that the entire Church is Israel if I understand you.

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. JLB, do you think these Gentiles are Israel?

BUT: Rom 11:25 . . . . blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Now when God does turn again to Israel, the marriage of Jesus and His bride will have already taken place.

 

[Rondmon]

Brother Rondmon, I agree with your assessment of the "Wonder" woman of Rev 12:1 being Israel, and in that thought, who do you say that the Man Child of Rev 12:5 is that she gives birth to? Thanks.

I'm editing this post to note that I missed a portion of your post stating who you believe the Man Child is. Brother JLB caught my error. I do not agree with you that the Man Child is Jesus since Rev 4:1 forward is speaking of things which must be hereafter, and that from the perspective of The Lord's Day (Rev 1:10).

Revelation is not in chronological order, nor can it be. If the Baby Jesus birth was in Rev. 12 then the Ascension would be after the birth would it not ? Rev. chapter 19 is happening at the exact same time as the 21 Judgments Seals/Trumps/Vial, and it has to be that way, if they happen at the same time, and they do, then one is told then the other. You do not tell the judgments and insert a part of the Marriage to the Lamb in between each Judgment, that interrupts the flow of any book, you give one account, then the other. Revelation 19 happens as soon as the Church is raptured, as does the Seals then the Trumps and finally the Vials of God's wrath.

As per Rev. chapter 12, it is pretty much the account of or retelling of all of history and its main players. Israel, Jesus, Satan (Dragon) Jesus ascension to the Right hand of God or the Throne, he is our intercessor in Heaven as we speak, Michael casts Satan to earth, Satan possesses the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin who tries to kill all Jewish peoples after the mid point annulment of their agreement, but God protects her.

As per the Man Child not being Jesus, the verse clearly says that he was caught up unto God.....5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.....This is clearly referencing Jesus because who else has ascended to the throne of God ?

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Scripture reveals that there will still be people living in mortal bodies during Christ's earthly reign (Zechariah 14:16-21, Revelation 20:7-10). As discussed in the the pre-tribulation rapture study, the people who enter the Kingdom are believers who survive the Tribulation and Christ will rule over them and their descendants with a "rod of iron" (Psalm 2:9, Revelation 2:27,Revelation 12:5, Revelation 19:15).

What does it mean to rule with "a rod of iron"?

Isaiah 9:6-7 - For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In this messianic prophecy, we see that Christ will rule with "judgment and justice." Therefore, to rule with a rod of iron would mean that His rule will be just, and punishment will be swift and harsh:

Micah 4:3 - He shall judge between many peoples, and rebuke strong nations afar off; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Christ will deal with rebellion promptly in the Kingdom, and peace will prevail during this time (Isaiah 9:6-7).

And I see your point, everything must be Hereafter, but all of the accounts are hereafter, to a point, each chapter ends with things that are hereafter. So in Chapter 12 we get the retelling of the story of Israel/Jesus/the Dragon etc. etc, but the chapter ends with the Woman being pursued by the Anti-Christ/Beast/Dragon unto the Wilderness and God protecting her.

God Bless...

 

[Rondmon]

So, you are saying Jesus will come back a third time for I only read two times in scripture? The first was when Jesus spoke to Mary at the tomb and told her not to touch Him for He had not ascended yet and then He ascended to the Father. Then He came down from heaven in His glorified body as He came to the upper room and filled the disciples with the Holy Spirit. After that he showed Himself three times to the disciples and then ascended back up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God until the day of His second coming when He will return to the air, meaning earth's atmosphere and we are caught up to meet Him in the air then proceed back to earth with Him at that time and will be ever more with Him, John 20, 21; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19.

BTW, no one can say exactly by days or years when Christ will return as God is the only one who knows, Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I have already given the scriptures that speak about the Church still being here through all the trumpet and vial judgments, but will list them again:

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. We can only repent through Gods Spirit and if that Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers then who would be left for anyone to repent if they wanted to if we were already gone as faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

No, I did not say that at all, sorry if I implied that.............1 Thessalonians 4:15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

We will meet the Lord Jesus in the Air, he doesn't come back to earth, but descends and shouts for us, the Church to come up to meet him, just as Paul stated, we will meet him in the air, to be with him forever.

We know exactly the length of the Anti-Christs rule, (1260 Days of terror) so imho, Jesus is speaking about his calling of the Church to Heaven, because he comes like a thief in the night, takes the one and leaves the other. When Jesus' Second Coming is here he will come to destroy the wicked utterly. Not to take one and leave the other.

 

[Eugene]

As per the Man Child not being Jesus, the verse clearly says that he was caught up unto God.....5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.....This is clearly referencing Jesus because who else has ascended to the throne of God ?

Revelation is not in chronological order, nor can it be. If the Baby Jesus birth was in Rev. 12 then the Ascension would be after the birth would it not ?

As per Rev. chapter 12, it is pretty much the account of or retelling of all of history and its main players. Israel, Jesus, Satan (Dragon) Jesus ascension to the Right hand of God or the Throne,

Brother Rondmon, I have no idea your thinking as to where you think John was in Spirit according to Rev 1:10, or for that matter what the Lord’s Day is. A friend of mine, Gene Hawkins, in his teaching said it this way: as opposed to man's day, or times of the Gentiles.

As to context Jesus instructed John in Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Did John see Jesus’ birth)

In Rev 12:4 . . . the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. In a sense you referred to this as part of the past birth of Christ, and I have to question that due to the fact no one knew where Jesus was when He was born; not the wise men, Herod, or Satan. When the wise men finally found Him, he was located already in a house, and that may have been two years later (Mat 2:11) because in Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

Have you considered others that may be considered caught up to God and His throne in that troublesome future time? In conjunction with this I would bring your attention to Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him (Is this really Jesus keeping His works unto the end?) will I give power over the nations.

Rev 2:27 And he (Jesus is speaking here; is He referring to Himself as “he”) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What do you think of Matthew 19:27? Jesus' disciples came unto Him and said what are we going to get? We've given up fathers and mothers, and everything else, "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." They are going to be doing that from heaven. This also was a comment by Gene Hawkins.

Last for now is your question of what the “Rod of Iron is.” I’ll just say I have a note that it is absolute power for instance over usurping nations, possibly with law.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

It is true that Christians will suffer great persecution, but not the Church which was Raptured, is in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb (Rev. 19) and who come back with Jesus on White Horses in Rev. 19. (Immediately after the Tribulation). Why do people not see this ?

Hi Rondmon. I think the difference in how we see is based on how we interpret. None of us has absolute understanding of all truth and we can't know for certain how prophecy will be fulfilled until it actually happens. I think the best that any of us can do is to look for an interpretation which seems most consistent with what the prophecy says.

For example, I see persecution and wrath as different. Persecution and tribulation will be there for all Christians, but wrath is something specifically directed at the enemies of God. I think there are times when God may ease a person's tribulation, or give them the strength to persevere, but this concept of removing Christians from tribulation for their convenience just isn't consistent with my understanding of what it means to suffer for faith.

I used to believe in pre-trib rapture theory and even now it's something I keep way, way back in my mind as still a possibility; but my understanding of Jesus' teachings and my personal experience just don't conform to that interpretation anymore.

I don't feel afraid of the Great Tribulation. I don't feel like I need to be taken out of the way. I have the opposite perspective now; it's an exciting time to be alive. The Revelation is a picture of God's plan for the world. It's there to give us hope that he really does know what he's doing and he wants us to be a part of it. When I think about those people who overcome the Beast by loving not their lives even unto death, I get a sense of character, integrity, authority, love, power, and spiritual maturity.

Yeah, they will suffer and die, but so what? They're death is a witness that God is stronger than death; that there is something worth dying for. I don't exactly look forward to suffering, but I also understand that suffering is a necessary part of what it means for goodness to stand up to evil.

All the world will wonder after the beast, and yet these Christians will show that wonder for the lie it is because they are not afraid to die. So, when pre-tribbers talk about escaping, what is it they're really escaping from?

 

[Rondmon]

Brother Rondmon, I have no idea your thinking as to where you think John was in Spirit according to Rev 1:10, or for that matter what the Lord’s Day is. A friend of mine, Gene Hawkins, in his teaching said it this way: as opposed to man's day, or times of the Gentiles.

As to context Jesus instructed John in Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Did John see Jesus’ birth)

In Rev 12:4 . . . the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. In a sense you referred to this as part of the past birth of Christ, and I have to question that due to the fact no one knew where Jesus was when He was born; not the wise men, Herod, or Satan. When the wise men finally found Him, he was located already in a house, and that may have been two years later (Mat 2:11) because in Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

Have you considered others that may be considered caught up to God and His throne in that troublesome future time? In conjunction with this I would bring your attention to Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him (Is this really Jesus keeping His works unto the end?) will I give power over the nations.

Rev 2:27 And he (Jesus is speaking here; is He referring to Himself as “he”) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What do you think of Matthew 19:27? Jesus' disciples came unto Him and said what are we going to get? We've given up fathers and mothers, and everything else, "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." They are going to be doing that from heaven. This also was a comment by Gene Hawkins.

Last for now is your question of what the “Rod of Iron is.” I’ll just say I have a note that it is absolute power for instance over usurping nations, possibly with law.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Hello brother, had to attend my Aunts funeral Friday so I been off the computer for a while. The Lords Day is Judgment of the world, that great and terrible day. My point with Rev. 12, is that even though Jesus told the story of Israel/his Birth/Dragon/ascension to heaven, the future of the Woman fleeing into the wilderness and being protected by God from the Dragon/Satan is the main focus of he chapter, a future event. Rev. 19 is also a future event to Johns perspective, but it happens at the same time as the 21 Judgments over a 7 year period. The Judgments are actually only over a 3 1/2 year period, so the Marriage to the Lamb is longer.

As per Rev. 2:26-27 this is truth, God gives us Saints the rule over the earth also.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The 12 Apostles and the 12 Heads of the 12 tribes of Israel make up the 24 Elders, Paul is of course in place of Judas.

God Bless

 

[Rondmon]

Hi Rondmon. I think the difference in how we see is based on how we interpret. None of us has absolute understanding of all truth and we can't know for certain how prophecy will be fulfilled until it actually happens. I think the best that any of us can do is to look for an interpretation which seems most consistent with what the prophecy says.

For example, I see persecution and wrath as different. Persecution and tribulation will be there for all Christians, but wrath is something specifically directed at the enemies of God. I think there are times when God may ease a person's tribulation, or give them the strength to persevere, but this concept of removing Christians from tribulation for their convenience just isn't consistent with my understanding of what it means to suffer for faith.

I used to believe in pre-trib rapture theory and even now it's something I keep way, way back in my mind as still a possibility; but my understanding of Jesus' teachings and my personal experience just don't conform to that interpretation anymore.

I don't feel afraid of the Great Tribulation. I don't feel like I need to be taken out of the way. I have the opposite perspective now; it's an exciting time to be alive. The Revelation is a picture of God's plan for the world. It's there to give us hope that he really does know what he's doing and he wants us to be a part of it. When I think about those people who overcome the Beast by loving not their lives even unto death, I get a sense of character, integrity, authority, love, power, and spiritual maturity.

Yeah, they will suffer and die, but so what? They're death is a witness that God is stronger than death; that there is something worth dying for. I don't exactly look forward to suffering, but I also understand that suffering is a necessary part of what it means for goodness to stand up to evil.

All the world will wonder after the beast, and yet these Christians will show that wonder for the lie it is because they are not afraid to die. So, when pre-tribbers talk about escaping, what is it they're really escaping from?

It is/would be an honor to die for Christ while furthering the gospel to all the world. This was a must needs be - 2000 years ago. Today every person on this earth has heard of Jesus Christ, basically, TV takes this message even to the end of the earth. Us Christians give our lives gladly to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ unto the Lost. But God leaving us in a world where billions will die, has no merit nor meaning, as all the world knows of Jesus, and either accept or reject him.

Our job is done brother, the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled when the Gospel is preached unto the ends of all the world, we have done that, the 144,000, the two witnesses and a few angels will take over the preaching. Our job is done, after we are called home of course, good and well done my fellow servants.

If no one in the world knew Jesus, we would stay, but then it would not be the end times, God has a perfect plan, we have done our jobs. There will be new converts who will have to face the consequences of becoming Christians after the Rapture. They must endure.

God Bless.

 

[Rondmon]

Brother Rondmon, I have no idea your thinking as to where you think John was in Spirit according to Rev 1:10, or for that matter what the Lord’s Day is. A friend of mine, Gene Hawkins, in his teaching said it this way: as opposed to man's day, or times of the Gentiles.

As to context Jesus instructed John in Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Did John see Jesus’ birth)

In Rev 12:4 . . . the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. In a sense you referred to this as part of the past birth of Christ, and I have to question that due to the fact no one knew where Jesus was when He was born; not the wise men, Herod, or Satan. When the wise men finally found Him, he was located already in a house, and that may have been two years later (Mat 2:11) because in Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

Have you considered others that may be considered caught up to God and His throne in that troublesome future time? In conjunction with this I would bring your attention to Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him (Is this really Jesus keeping His works unto the end?) will I give power over the nations.

Rev 2:27 And he (Jesus is speaking here; is He referring to Himself as “he”) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What do you think of Matthew 19:27? Jesus' disciples came unto Him and said what are we going to get? We've given up fathers and mothers, and everything else, "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." They are going to be doing that from heaven. This also was a comment by Gene Hawkins.

Last for now is your question of what the “Rod of Iron is.” I’ll just say I have a note that it is absolute power for instance over usurping nations, possibly with law.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

I think we probably agree more than you think, I am just not expressing my views probably, I have read your posts in a few threads and you seem to be pretty straight forward in biblical concepts. I will try again on baby Jesus.

I know that God sent Mary and Joseph to Egypt, to hide the baby Jesus from King Herod. (An angel warned Joseph of the danger) Satan the Dragon, imho tried to use King Herod to kill the baby, thus he ordered all babies under two years of age slaughtered Matthew 2:16 as you quoted. Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. ( I think Satan knew who Jesus was from birth, Herod did not, but Satan wanted to murder Jesus from the time of his birth, as a child, and as a man, no doubt, but Jesus was protected until Satan go his way, not knowing this was Gods ultimate plan for mankind. AMEN. ) So when it says the Dragon sought to kill him/devour him from birth, I suspect Satan did try, but he was no match for God.

I think this is what that passage in Revelation chapter 12 meant, the Dragon tried to kill the baby Jesus, we know and understand that God was never going to allow that to happen, Amen.

You are correct, it will be the Law of Christ Jesus written in our hearts, no doubt some in the 1000 year reign will not accept Jesus and must be ruled by the Law of Moses, because Satan will deceive the nations again.

 

[Eugene]

I know that God sent Mary and Joseph to Egypt, to hide the baby Jesus from King Herod. (An angel warned Joseph of the danger) Satan the Dragon, imho tried to use King Herod to kill the baby, thus he ordered all babies under two years of age slaughtered Matthew 2:16 as you quoted. Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. ( I think Satan knew who Jesus was from birth, Herod did not, but Satan wanted to murder Jesus from the time of his birth, as a child, and as a man, no doubt, but Jesus was protected until Satan go his way, not knowing this was Gods ultimate plan for mankind. AMEN. ) So when it says the Dragon sought to kill him/devour him from birth, I suspect Satan did try, but he was no match for God.

I think this is what that passage in Revelation chapter 12 meant, the Dragon tried to kill the baby Jesus, we know and understand that God was never going to allow that to happen, Amen.

Brother Rondmon, to me it doesn’t fit the viewpoint offered John as he received from the perspective of the Lord’s day which is after this present age. Again Rev 4:1 shows John being caught up in Spirit from the view on earth to heavenly things future. There are actually five vision viewpoints, and that is where he is at the time the vision is given to him.

During the first three chapters of Revelation, Jesus’ angel (Rev 1:1) had already shown John the things which he had seen, and the things which are of this present time, and that from the future Lord’s Day.

With the exception of what you think is Jesus’ birth in Rev 12:5, are there other references in your opinion reaching outside the time of things which must be hereafter from Rev 4:1?

 

[Rondmon]

I get you now, you are saying since John was caught up in the Spirit on the Lords Day, and Jesus stated that all things I am going to show you must be hereafter (that event of him being caught up). So anything that was before the start of the Lords Day can not be in the Revelation visions after 4:1.

I will offer my thought, but I will not say you are wrong here, we just differ here. I think the "subject" of Rev. 12 is Israel, and Jesus is trying to explain who Israel is to the reader, he is using a description, because after all she disappeared for 2000 years, until recently. Jesus is trying to describe a future event, he doesn't want anyone thinking this woman is the Church (which they do anyway) so he gives a vivid description of her history, even as he is with John in the future, in Spirit. But Israel fleeing into the Wilderness, is the subject/point of this story/chapter. He says this woman gave birth to a child, the Beast wanted to slay this child, but he ascended to the throne of God where he will rule the nations with a rod of Iron. Jesus is painting a picture of who this woman is, that is fleeing into the wilderness. The story is all about the woman fleeing in the wilderness from the Beast. I think Jesus did this only to describe who this woman was, so as no mistake could be made.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

I don't know if that made any sense or not, but I gave it my best shot, if we do not agree, well we are still brothers in Christ, that is the most important thing, God Bless.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, I did not say that at all, sorry if I implied that.............1 Thessalonians 4:15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

We will meet the Lord Jesus in the Air, he doesn't come back to earth, but descends and shouts for us, the Church to come up to meet him, just as Paul stated, we will meet him in the air, to be with him forever.

We know exactly the length of the Anti-Christs rule, (1260 Days of terror) so imho, Jesus is speaking about his calling of the Church to Heaven, because he comes like a thief in the night, takes the one and leaves the other. When Jesus' Second Coming is here he will come to destroy the wicked utterly. Not to take one and leave the other.

Scripture never says we are taken up to heaven, but only caught up to meet Jesus in the air, which means the earth's atmosphere in being the first heaven. If we are taken up to heaven after meeting Jesus in the air, for which He has to descend from the third heaven to the air, then that not only means Jesus descends from the third heaven three times, but also makes what is said in John 3:13 a complete lie.