Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[for_his_glory]

Revelation is not in chronological order, nor can it be. If the Baby Jesus birth was in Rev. 12 then the Ascension would be after the birth would it not ? Rev. chapter 19 is happening at the exact same time as the 21 Judgments Seals/Trumps/Vial, and it has to be that way, if they happen at the same time, and they do, then one is told then the other. You do not tell the judgments and insert a part of the Marriage to the Lamb in between each Judgment, that interrupts the flow of any book, you give one account, then the other. Revelation 19 happens as soon as the Church is raptured, as does the Seals then the Trumps and finally the Vials of God's wrath.

As per Rev. chapter 12, it is pretty much the account of or retelling of all of history and its main players. Israel, Jesus, Satan (Dragon) Jesus ascension to the Right hand of God or the Throne, he is our intercessor in Heaven as we speak, Michael casts Satan to earth, Satan possesses the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin who tries to kill all Jewish peoples after the mid point annulment of their agreement, but God protects her.

As per the Man Child not being Jesus, the verse clearly says that he was caught up unto God.....5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.....This is clearly referencing Jesus because who else has ascended to the throne of God ?

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Scripture reveals that there will still be people living in mortal bodies during Christ's earthly reign (Zechariah 14:16-21, Revelation 20:7-10). As discussed in the the pre-tribulation rapture study, the people who enter the Kingdom are believers who survive the Tribulation and Christ will rule over them and their descendants with a "rod of iron" (Psalm 2:9, Revelation 2:27,Revelation 12:5, Revelation 19:15).

What does it mean to rule with "a rod of iron"?

Isaiah 9:6-7 - For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In this messianic prophecy, we see that Christ will rule with "judgment and justice." Therefore, to rule with a rod of iron would mean that His rule will be just, and punishment will be swift and harsh:

Micah 4:3 - He shall judge between many peoples, and rebuke strong nations afar off; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Christ will deal with rebellion promptly in the Kingdom, and peace will prevail during this time (Isaiah 9:6-7).

And I see your point, everything must be Hereafter, but all of the accounts are hereafter, to a point, each chapter ends with things that are hereafter. So in Chapter 12 we get the retelling of the story of Israel/Jesus/the Dragon etc. etc, but the chapter ends with the Woman being pursued by the Anti-Christ/Beast/Dragon unto the Wilderness and God protecting her.

God Bless...

I explained in post #708 that of Chapter 12 who the women represents.

Revelation is very much in chronological order starting with the messages to the seven Churches, which represent all of us being the body of Christ. The seven seals starting in Rev 6 that only Jesus is worthy to open span the next fifteen chapters of Revelation. Chapter six explains the first six seals as in a brief scenario of what is about to take place during the timing of Gods seven trumpet judgments with the seventh trumpet being the worse for it covers everything starting from Rev 11:15 through Rev 12 where Satan is cast out of heaven and Rev 16 that ends the seven vial judgments. Rev 17 and 18 reveals mystery Babylon and then she is destroyed. Rev 19 and 20 Christ returns with we His army arrayed in fine linen, clean and white as Satan is bound and then let loose a little while to wage war on the saints, but God consumes him with fire and he is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet have been cast into. Then comes the great white throne judgment and those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life are then cast into the lake of fire, the heaven and earth are restored and the new Jerusalem is usher down from heaven and we are with the Lord for eternity.

 

[for_his_glory]

Brother Rondmon, I have no idea your thinking as to where you think John was in Spirit according to Rev 1:10, or for that matter what the Lord’s Day is. A friend of mine, Gene Hawkins, in his teaching said it this way: as opposed to man's day, or times of the Gentiles.

As to context Jesus instructed John in Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Did John see Jesus’ birth)

In Rev 12:4 . . . the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. In a sense you referred to this as part of the past birth of Christ, and I have to question that due to the fact no one knew where Jesus was when He was born; not the wise men, Herod, or Satan. When the wise men finally found Him, he was located already in a house, and that may have been two years later (Mat 2:11) because in Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

Have you considered others that may be considered caught up to God and His throne in that troublesome future time? In conjunction with this I would bring your attention to Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him (Is this really Jesus keeping His works unto the end?) will I give power over the nations.

Rev 2:27 And he (Jesus is speaking here; is He referring to Himself as “he”) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What do you think of Matthew 19:27? Jesus' disciples came unto Him and said what are we going to get? We've given up fathers and mothers, and everything else, "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." They are going to be doing that from heaven. This also was a comment by Gene Hawkins.

Last for now is your question of what the “Rod of Iron is.” I’ll just say I have a note that it is absolute power for instance over usurping nations, possibly with law.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Hi Eugene,

John was in the spirit when the angel gave him these revelations, Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

As for the day of the Lord:
The day of the Lord is a day of Gods great wrath being poured out on those who refuse to repent. It is always pointed out as the day at hand meaning in Gods timing.The phrase “the day of the Lord” is used nineteen times in the Old Testament (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi. 4:5) and five times in the New Testament (Acts 2:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages (Revelation 6:17; 16:14).

 

[Free]

Hi Eugene,

John was in the spirit when the angel gave him these revelations, Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

As for the day of the Lord:
The day of the Lord is a day of Gods great wrath being poured out on those who refuse to repent. It is always pointed out as the day at hand meaning in Gods timing.The phrase “the day of the Lord” is used nineteen times in the Old Testament (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi. 4:5) and five times in the New Testament (Acts 2:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages (Revelation 6:17; 16:14).

The phrase "the Lord's day" is used only here in the NT and is not the same as "the day of the Lord." It most likely just refers to Sunday, the first day of the week on which Jesus rose. To make it the same as "the day of the Lord" doesn't make any sense in this verse.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Rondmon. I think the difference in how we see is based on how we interpret. None of us has absolute understanding of all truth and we can't know for certain how prophecy will be fulfilled until it actually happens. I think the best that any of us can do is to look for an interpretation which seems most consistent with what the prophecy says.

For example, I see persecution and wrath as different. Persecution and tribulation will be there for all Christians, but wrath is something specifically directed at the enemies of God. I think there are times when God may ease a person's tribulation, or give them the strength to persevere, but this concept of removing Christians from tribulation for their convenience just isn't consistent with my understanding of what it means to suffer for faith.

I used to believe in pre-trib rapture theory and even now it's something I keep way, way back in my mind as still a possibility; but my understanding of Jesus' teachings and my personal experience just don't conform to that interpretation anymore.

I don't feel afraid of the Great Tribulation. I don't feel like I need to be taken out of the way. I have the opposite perspective now; it's an exciting time to be alive. The Revelation is a picture of God's plan for the world. It's there to give us hope that he really does know what he's doing and he wants us to be a part of it. When I think about those people who overcome the Beast by loving not their lives even unto death, I get a sense of character, integrity, authority, love, power, and spiritual maturity.

Yeah, they will suffer and die, but so what? They're death is a witness that God is stronger than death; that there is something worth dying for. I don't exactly look forward to suffering, but I also understand that suffering is a necessary part of what it means for goodness to stand up to evil.

All the world will wonder after the beast, and yet these Christians will show that wonder for the lie it is because they are not afraid to die. So, when pre-tribbers talk about escaping, what is it they're really escaping from?

You are getting a good grasp on all of this. I wouldn't say it is going to be an exciting time for us as we will face much persecution even to some a physical death, but a last time being exciting that we get to preach the gospel to those who will finally have ears to hear the gospel being preached to them. You are so right in saying you get a sense of character, integrity, authority, love, power, and spiritual maturity for this is what we will need as we stand strong in our faith that is Christ Jesus that we continue to seek those things from above and not those things here on earth.

 

[for_his_glory]

The phrase "the Lord's day" is used only here in the NT and is not the same as "the day of the Lord." It most likely just refers to Sunday, the first day of the week on which Jesus rose. To make it the same as "the day of the Lord" doesn't make any sense in this verse.

I didn't say "the Lord's day" I said "the day of the Lord" which are two different things.

 

[Free]

I didn't say "the Lord's day" I said "the day of the Lord" which are two different things.

I know what you said. You underlined Rev. 1:10 and then went on to explain "the day of the Lord," which makes it seem as though you are equating the two.

 

[for_his_glory]

I know what you said. You underlined Rev. 1:10 and then went on to explain "the day of the Lord," which makes it seem as though you are equating the two.

Sorry if it came across that way. I was just showing what the day of the Lord meant in scripture as usually meaning Gods wrath against those who come against us.

 

[Free]

Sorry if it came across that way. I was just showing what the day of the Lord meant in scripture as usually meaning Gods wrath against those who come against us.

Not your fault. No worries. The two phrases are now clarified in case anyone thinks they are one and the same.

 

[for_his_glory]

Not your fault. No worries. The two phrases are now clarified in case anyone thinks they are one and the same.

It's all good

 

[n2thelight]

Actually the Lords Day and the Day of the Lord are the same...

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually the Lords Day and the Day of the Lord are the same...

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

There is a difference between "the Lord's day" and "the day of the Lord".

Everywhere in scripture that literally says "the day of the Lord" is all bout Gods wrath being poured out on the enemy. It can also be referenced as the great and terrible day of the Lord which has two meanings. One is a great day for us as God is avenging us from all persecutions and tribulations brought against us from our enemies and the second is terrible day for those who have rejected Christ for they will be cast into the lake of fire.

The Lord's day only appears once in scripture in Rev 1:10. It gives no reference to what day of the week it was as every day is the Lord's day, but more specific refers to the Sabbath day in Mark 16:9; Acts 2:42; 20:7; 1Corinthians 16:1,2 . John was in the Spirit, but yet in his physical body when he received from the angel all these revelations that he wrote down. Throughout scripture the Lord's day is usually referred to as the Sabbath being the first day of the week.

The phrase “the day of the Lord” is used nineteen times in the Old Testament (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi. 4:5) and five times in the New Testament (Acts 2:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; 2 Peter 3:10). It is also alluded to in other passages (Revelation 6:17; 16:14).

 

[n2thelight]

The Lords Day,starts the milennium,however way you want to phrase it....

 

[Rondmon]

I explained in post #708 that of Chapter 12 who the women represents.

Revelation is very much in chronological order starting with the messages to the seven Churches, which represent all of us being the body of Christ. The seven seals starting in Rev 6 that only Jesus is worthy to open span the next fifteen chapters of Revelation. Chapter six explains the first six seals as in a brief scenario of what is about to take place during the timing of Gods seven trumpet judgments with the seventh trumpet being the worse for it covers everything starting from Rev 11:15 through Rev 12 where Satan is cast out of heaven and Rev 16 that ends the seven vial judgments. Rev 17 and 18 reveals mystery Babylon and then she is destroyed. Rev 19 and 20 Christ returns with we His army arrayed in fine linen, clean and white as Satan is bound and then let loose a little while to wage war on the saints, but God consumes him with fire and he is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet have been cast into. Then comes the great white throne judgment and those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life are then cast into the lake of fire, the heaven and earth are restored and the new Jerusalem is usher down from heaven and we are with the Lord for eternity.

Genesis 37:9 And he (Joseph) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.........Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

I knew you referenced it, but my interpretation is based on scriptures. John used the Old Testament to reference the book of Revelation in 289 out of 404 verses. That is the Key to understanding Revelation. Joseph is no doubt in my mind speaking of Israel, he says 11 Stars is paying obeisance unto me, and the Sun is Jacob and the Moon is his mother was also paying obeisance to him. So when John says a great wonder appears in Heaven, he is referencing Israel with the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars. She gave birth to the Baby/Child, the Church was birthed by the child and could not have birthed the child.

Save for Revelation chapter 19, Revelation is in chronological order. But Revelation 19 is the story of the Marriage to the Lamb, and that Marriage Feast last for One full Week. Or 7 years. The same amount of time the reign of the Anti-Christ/Beast lasts. Since they both occur concurrently, you have to tell one after the other, unless you intersperse both stories.

I can never get an explanation from anyone, how does Revelation 19 happen without a Rapture happening before the Second Coming, since we Saints travel back from Heaven on White Horses with Jesus. It doesn't add up. Either there is a Rapture before the Second Coming, or Revelation 19 is a fairy tale. This is why I say Revelation 19, the One Week Marriage Feast happens at the same time as Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation of 3 1/2 years of peaceful rule by the Anti-Christ/Beast, followed by a 3 1/2 year rule of terror by the Anti-Christ/Beast/Dragon or 7 years in full. That is why God's 70 Week Decree was cut off when Jesus died, after 69 weeks.

The time of the Gentiles will be finished when we the Church are raptured, then Israel will be front and center again. The 144,000, the Two Witnesses in Jerusalem, the Angels in Heaven proclaiming the gospel, God protecting Israel n the Wilderness, etc. etc. When Satan is cast out of Heaven, that starts the Tribulation Judgments, he possesses the Anti-Christ then mankind has but a short time left..........................

Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea ! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. ( Given power to overcome the Saints )

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast ? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Satan possesses the Anti-Christ/Beast at the midway point of he Anti-Christs reign, this is why it states that Power was given unto him for 42 Months, we know the Anti-Christ reigns for Seven years, he is the 7th King in Rev. 17 who reigns for only a short time, then the 8th King, Satan Himself possesses the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin and he reigns the final 3 1/2 years or 42 Months.

Amen, even so come Lord.

 

[for_his_glory]

Genesis 37:9 And he (Joseph) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.........Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

I knew you referenced it, but my interpretation is based on scriptures. John used the Old Testament to reference the book of Revelation in 289 out of 404 verses. That is the Key to understanding Revelation. Joseph is no doubt in my mind speaking of Israel, he says 11 Stars is paying obeisance unto me, and the Sun is Jacob and the Moon is his mother was also paying obeisance to him. So when John says a great wonder appears in Heaven, he is referencing Israel with the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars. She gave birth to the Baby/Child, the Church was birthed by the child and could not have birthed the child.

Save for Revelation chapter 19, Revelation is in chronological order. But Revelation 19 is the story of the Marriage to the Lamb, and that Marriage Feast last for One full Week. Or 7 years. The same amount of time the reign of the Anti-Christ/Beast lasts. Since they both occur concurrently, you have to tell one after the other, unless you intersperse both stories.

I can never get an explanation from anyone, how does Revelation 19 happen without a Rapture happening before the Second Coming, since we Saints travel back from Heaven on White Horses with Jesus. It doesn't add up. Either there is a Rapture before the Second Coming, or Revelation 19 is a fairy tale. This is why I say Revelation 19, the One Week Marriage Feast happens at the same time as Jacob's trouble or the Tribulation of 3 1/2 years of peaceful rule by the Anti-Christ/Beast, followed by a 3 1/2 year rule of terror by the Anti-Christ/Beast/Dragon or 7 years in full. That is why God's 70 Week Decree was cut off when Jesus died, after 69 weeks.

The time of the Gentiles will be finished when we the Church are raptured, then Israel will be front and center again. The 144,000, the Two Witnesses in Jerusalem, the Angels in Heaven proclaiming the gospel, God protecting Israel n the Wilderness, etc. etc. When Satan is cast out of Heaven, that starts the Tribulation Judgments, he possesses the Anti-Christ then mankind has but a short time left..........................

Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea ! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. ( Given power to overcome the Saints )

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast ? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Satan possesses the Anti-Christ/Beast at the midway point of he Anti-Christs reign, this is why it states that Power was given unto him for 42 Months, we know the Anti-Christ reigns for Seven years, he is the 7th King in Rev. 17 who reigns for only a short time, then the 8th King, Satan Himself possesses the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin and he reigns the final 3 1/2 years or 42 Months.

Amen, even so come Lord.

You have to read all of Genesis 37 in order to understand Joseph's dream as it has nothing to do with with Rev 12. In Joseph's dream the sun is the brightness of Gods glory in righteousness found in Joseph who found favor in the Lord. The moon is Gods faithfulness in protecting Joseph when he was taken captive. The eleven stars are his eleven brothers that ended up submitting themselves to Joseph as they sought provisions from him to take back to their father Jacob/Israel, even though they did not recognize him at first, but God placed Joseph in a position where he could help his family in times of need.

I will repost this again so you can read the scriptures that explain Rev 12.

John is shown a great sign in heaven as he sees a vision of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. The sun is representative of the glory and brilliance of Gods righteousness that surrounds her and protects her. Under her feet the moon which is illustrative of eternity, light, Gods faithfulness in His Son Jesus who is the greater light of the gospel age as Jesus being the light of the world that shines in darkness, but the darkness can not comprehend the light, Psalms 72:5-7; Isaiah 2:3-5; Jeremiah 31:35-37; Isaiah 30:26-33; John 1:1-5.

The woman is the congregation of Gods people as she wears a crown of twelve stars which represents the twelve tribes of Israel that have repented of their arrogance as they felt they deserved Gods favor, but yet kept killing the prophets God sent to them, including the very Messiah they were waiting for. This is when the times of the Gentiles began as God went to them to take Himself a people that were humbled enough to receive salvation as God had mercy on them, Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14; Romans 11:25-27.

Per your theory of the Rapture I have given you explanation of Rev 19 as being the second coming of Christ to gather the saints, dead and alive, to catch them up to the air to meet Jesus there as all is explained very clearly that we at that time are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white as we have to be in our new glorified bodies in order to return with Jesus when He at that time from the air descends down to earth with we His army and plants His feet on the mount of Olives to destroy the beast, false prophet, Satan and then those who have rejected Him. (I'm nut shelling Rev 19 and 20).

The tribulation judgments start with the first trumpet back in Rev 8 with the seventh seal being opened and does not end until the last vial judgment in Rev 16:17-21. Then the great harlot has been revealed in Rev 17 as many will take her mark sealing their fate, not knowing she is mystery Babylon. In Rev 18 the great harlot, mystery Babylon is destroyed as those who have taken her mark cry over her destruction. Rev 19 We return to earth with Jesus after being caught up to meet Him in the air then the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire followed by Satan and then those who have rejected Jesus are cast into the lake of fire. Rev 21 the heaven and earth are renewed and we are in the new Jerusalem with the Lord forever. (nut shelling all of this)

 

[for_his_glory]

Rondmon here is the explanation of the 144,000 that I wanted to add to the last post, but it was long enough.

Rev 14:1-5 the Lamb represents Jesus who stands on the symbolic mount Sion in the heavenly Jerusalem meaning where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell which is called the heaven of heavens, Hebrews 12:22-24; Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16. The hundred and forty four thousand that John sees standing with Jesus is not a literal numbering, but symbolic of those of Gods established covenant with faithful Abraham up through a thousand generations, Deuteronomy 7:9; Galatians 3:6, 7; 3:28, 29. These are they of great faith that have never allowed them selves to fall to temptations of the world. To the Jew first and then the Gentile who have gone on before us as together with them all who are alive or have died before the Lords return makes up the complete body of Christ, Ephesians 5:25-27. God breathed life into us, Genesis 2:7, and when this flesh body dies that spirit of life that was breathed in us will be the only thing that will go back to God, Ecclesiastics 12:7, as our physical body goes to the grave, but the grave has no victory over us, 1Corinthians 15:55-57.

 

[Rondmon]

You have to read all of Genesis 37 in order to understand Joseph's dream as it has nothing to do with with Rev 12. In Joseph's dream the sun is the brightness of Gods glory in righteousness found in Joseph who found favor in the Lord. The moon is Gods faithfulness in protecting Joseph when he was taken captive. The eleven stars are his eleven brothers that ended up submitting themselves to Joseph as they sought provisions from him to take back to their father Jacob/Israel, even though they did not recognize him at first, but God placed Joseph in a position where he could help his family in times of need.

I will repost this again so you can read the scriptures that explain Rev 12.

John is shown a great sign in heaven as he sees a vision of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. The sun is representative of the glory and brilliance of Gods righteousness that surrounds her and protects her. Under her feet the moon which is illustrative of eternity, light, Gods faithfulness in His Son Jesus who is the greater light of the gospel age as Jesus being the light of the world that shines in darkness, but the darkness can not comprehend the light, Psalms 72:5-7; Isaiah 2:3-5; Jeremiah 31:35-37; Isaiah 30:26-33; John 1:1-5.

The woman is the congregation of Gods people as she wears a crown of twelve stars which represents the twelve tribes of Israel that have repented of their arrogance as they felt they deserved Gods favor, but yet kept killing the prophets God sent to them, including the very Messiah they were waiting for. This is when the times of the Gentiles began as God went to them to take Himself a people that were humbled enough to receive salvation as God had mercy on them, Matthew 23:37-39; Acts 15:14; Romans 11:25-27.

Per your theory of the Rapture I have given you explanation of Rev 19 as being the second coming of Christ to gather the saints, dead and alive, to catch them up to the air to meet Jesus there as all is explained very clearly that we at that time are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white as we have to be in our new glorified bodies in order to return with Jesus when He at that time from the air descends down to earth with we His army and plants His feet on the mount of Olives to destroy the beast, false prophet, Satan and then those who have rejected Him. (I'm nut shelling Rev 19 and 20).

The tribulation judgments start with the first trumpet back in Rev 8 with the seventh seal being opened and does not end until the last vial judgment in Rev 16:17-21. Then the great harlot has been revealed in Rev 17 as many will take her mark sealing their fate, not knowing she is mystery Babylon. In Rev 18 the great harlot, mystery Babylon is destroyed as those who have taken her mark cry over her destruction. Rev 19 We return to earth with Jesus after being caught up to meet Him in the air then the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire followed by Satan and then those who have rejected Jesus are cast into the lake of fire. Rev 21 the heaven and earth are renewed and we are in the new Jerusalem with the Lord forever. (nut shelling all of this)

Good morning, to start with, I reread all of Genesis 37 and it says nothing about God's brightness or the moon being such and such. And you are right Genesis 37 has nothing to do with Revelation 12, it is the other way around, Rev. 12 has everything to do with Genesis 37, Jesus via John is showing who the Woman is, because the Sun, Moon and 11 Stars is Israel. Jacob, Rachel and the 11 Brothers is All Israel. {Jacob is Israel and the 11 Brothers plus Joseph are the 12 Tribes or ALL ISRAEL.} We understand this Dream was about his brothers serving Joseph, because the first dream was not about the Sun , moon and 11 Stars,....it was about the sheaves.

Genesis 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more. 6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed: 7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

The dream is about the brothers and parents, (Israel) serving Joseph. You see Joseph is a type of Messiah. Israel was to serve and Honor the Messiah. (BUT THEY REJECTED HIM). This is heavy, gives me chills.

Messiah ben David is the conquering type of Messiah, BUT........Messiah ben Joseph is the suffering Messiah type. Josephs mother and Mary both had interventions by Angels as per the births of their child, (Rachel was barren at the time) Josephs father loved him, God said this is my beloved Son, Joseph brought a bad report of his brothers to his father, Jesus said this world hated him. Josephs brothers stripped him and mocked him, Jesus was stripped and mocked, Josephs brothers sold him, Jesus was sold for 30 pieces of silver, Joseph and Jesus were both taken into Egypt to keep from being killed, Joseph was made an overseer, Jesus is our overseer.

Joseph did not sin with Potiphar's wife when tempted, and made no defense before the Gentiles, Jesus likewise did the same. Joseph was raised from the pit, Jesus from the grave. Joseph was given a foreign bride (Church to Jesus) Joseph was 30 years old when he started serving in Egypt, Jesus' ministry started at 30. Josephs coat was dipped in blood, Jesus was crucified.

Joseph was rejected by his brothers, then became their Salvation. (Genesis 42, Jacob sent his sons to Egypt where they had saved grain because of Joseph) Jesus was rejected by Israel, but will become their salvation. AMEN. So as per the Scriptures, imho, the Woman stands for Israel, John coded much of Revelation in Old Testament lingo, the 12 candlesticks, the Lamb etc. etc. They are not in depth codes, they are what they imply in the Old Testament. Very short and sweet.

We are in Heaven in Revelation 19, we are not meeting Jesus in the Air. That is the point.

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 12 the woman, being Israel and the Gentiles that have been grafted into her branch throughout the generations, is clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. She is clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet so how can the sun and moon be Israel. This would make her wrapped in herself in her own glory. The sun is the brightness of God in all His glory that clothes her in His righteousness. The moon is symbolic of Jesus that is the light that shines in darkness, John 1:1-5, just as the actual moon gives light at night time that guides us in the darkness.

On her head twelve stars, which are the twelve tribes of Israel, except the tribe of Dan as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan is not mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

The woman here represents the true congregation of God that flees to the wilderness just as Jesus forewarned her to do so in Matthew 24:15, 16. Jesus said in Matthew 24:15 to stand in the holy place when you see the abomination that will cause much desolation come to fruition. This holy place is a Spiritual place of great faith as we put our trust in the covenant promise of God that we will have eternal life with Him. We are not to fear what man can do to this flesh as all they can do is kill us once and after that what more can they do. We are to fear (respect) God which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:4, 5.

The woman (Israel) is the congregation of Gods people Jew and Gentile starting with Israel who gave birth to the man child (Jesus) whom Satan has always tried to devour, as Jesus was to rule the nations with an iron rod, but was caught up unto God, but will come back again to rule the nations with an iron rod meaning His great power and authority through what He speaks that goes forth like a sharp sword.

The woman here represents the true congregation of God Jew and Gentile that flees to the wilderness just as Jesus forewarned her to do so in Matthew 24:15, 16. Jesus said in Matthew 24:15 to stand in the holy place when you see the abomination that will cause much desolation come to fruition. This holy place is a Spiritual place of great faith as we put our trust in the covenant promise of God that we will have eternal life with Him. We are not to fear what man can do to this flesh as all they can do is kill us once and after that what more can they do. We are to fear (respect) God which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:4, 5.

The other sign John saw was a great red dragon meaning Satan. Remember, this is a vision and a sign as Satan has not yet been thrown out of heaven yet. The description of the dragon being great and red depicts its nature and character as being fierce and murderous, John 8:44. This red dragon is depicted as having seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The last kingdom which stands greater than all the others is that of a revived Roman Empire that takes control over all the ten nations who then implements a deceiving peace treaty to a world that is in great distress.

 

[for_his_glory]

Duplicate

 

[Rondmon]

Rev 12 the woman, being Israel and the Gentiles that have been grafted into her branch throughout the generations, is clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. She is clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet so how can the sun and moon be Israel. This would make her wrapped in herself in her own glory. The sun is the brightness of God in all His glory that clothes her in His righteousness. The moon is symbolic of Jesus that is the light that shines in darkness, John 1:1-5, just as the actual moon gives light at night time that guides us in the darkness.

On her head twelve stars, which are the twelve tribes of Israel, except the tribe of Dan as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan is not mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

The woman here represents the true congregation of God that flees to the wilderness just as Jesus forewarned her to do so in Matthew 24:15, 16. Jesus said in Matthew 24:15 to stand in the holy place when you see the abomination that will cause much desolation come to fruition. This holy place is a Spiritual place of great faith as we put our trust in the covenant promise of God that we will have eternal life with Him. We are not to fear what man can do to this flesh as all they can do is kill us once and after that what more can they do. We are to fear (respect) God which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:4, 5.

The woman (Israel) is the congregation of Gods people Jew and Gentile starting with Israel who gave birth to the man child (Jesus) whom Satan has always tried to devour, as Jesus was to rule the nations with an iron rod, but was caught up unto God, but will come back again to rule the nations with an iron rod meaning His great power and authority through what He speaks that goes forth like a sharp sword.

The woman here represents the true congregation of God Jew and Gentile that flees to the wilderness just as Jesus forewarned her to do so in Matthew 24:15, 16. Jesus said in Matthew 24:15 to stand in the holy place when you see the abomination that will cause much desolation come to fruition. This holy place is a Spiritual place of great faith as we put our trust in the covenant promise of God that we will have eternal life with Him. We are not to fear what man can do to this flesh as all they can do is kill us once and after that what more can they do. We are to fear (respect) God which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:4, 5.

The other sign John saw was a great red dragon meaning Satan. Remember, this is a vision and a sign as Satan has not yet been thrown out of heaven yet. The description of the dragon being great and red depicts its nature and character as being fierce and murderous, John 8:44. This red dragon is depicted as having seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The last kingdom which stands greater than all the others is that of a revived Roman Empire that takes control over all the ten nations who then implements a deceiving peace treaty to a world that is in great distress.

This is why getting the Rapture correct is so important. We have replacement theology whereas the Church replaces Israel, which just is not going to happen, Israel will be saved by God himself, just as God says in Zechariah chapters 12 and 13, Israel is not going to believe in the Messiah until the Church is Raptured to Heaven. Israel is God's inheritance, the Church is Jesus' bride.


The Jew and Gentile will always be different, just because we are in the same family doesn't mean we are the same. They will e grafted back in, but they are Gods inheritance, and the Church is Jesus' bride.

Israel birth Jesus, the Dragon seeks to kill the baby (Herod) the Child ascends to Gods throne. That is the story of Rev. chapter 12. When we do not get the Raptue right, it throws everything out of line. That is from my perspective of Course.

We simply do not agree, no use rehashing it. God Bless

 

[n2thelight]

The Church didn't replace Israel,it has always been Israel...
When you say Israel will be saved by God,can you clariy