Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Rollo Tamasi]

The entire Tribulation period (which includes the Great Tribulation) is a time when the unbelieving and the ungodly are *harvested* (Rev 6-18) through the judgements which come upon the earth. The battle of Armageddon (Rev 14:18-20) is the culmination of that harvest, during which the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth. Hence *earth* is mentioned again and again. This is not a period reserved for the saints.

Why not?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well, you have a good imagination anyway.
Why don't you get the pastor of your church on here and we'll hear what he has to say.

Cygnus,
My bud is hard nosed, you'll need the scriptures.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Now your splitting hairs.
When Jesus returns and steps on the ground...Mt of Olives....this isn't when the rapture occurs.

I said I putting in the spoon. LOL!

 

[th1b.taylor]

You are right as this is not a topic about salvation, but that of a study on the Rapture as in 1Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1Corinthians 15:42-58 and Revelations as they all speak of this. I do not study theories as that is all they are is theories without proof, but only speculations of a logic mind. What I bring to the plate is the pure word of God as what it says and not what I want it to say. Each has their own Bible and each can search those scriptures given like we are suppose to and by asking the Holy Spirit teach them then they can decide on what they want to believe.

Neither do I teach theories but I am known for teaching the whole Bible and where applicable the differences of opinion. and the reason I will never debate the Tribulation, pre, mid or post is because all three can be supported by scripture and I am not God, just a teacher.

 

[Malachi]

Why not?

Because God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9).

 

[turnorburn]

And so we shall obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.. but the wrath of God is upon all unbelievers great tribulation or no..

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[for_his_glory]

That is simply an assumption -- reading into the text what is not there. You will not find the word *saint* in this chapter, but you will find the word *earth*. The *harvest of the earth* is not *the harvest of the saints*. The *vine of the earth* is not Christ the Vine. Please note how many time *earth* appears in this small passage. This is the harvest of the *tares* since the *wheat* is already safely in the barn.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Looks like two different angels to me as one reaps the harvest which are we as God is Lord of the harvest. Matthew 9:37,38; Luke 10:2; John 4:35-38; 1Corinthians 3:6-9 are just a few verses that speak about the harvest being that of Gods children who have ears to hear and are reaped and gathered to eternal life as God is Lord of His harvest. The tares refused to hear and are also reaped and gathered to the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

Because God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9).

There was a question asked in Revelation 6:17 for the great day of his wrath is come and who shall be able to stand? Part of this question is answered in Nahum Chapter One for one example as there are many scriptures detailing Gods great vengeance against His enemies and His mercy on those who are called by His name having the seal of God on them, 2Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 4:30, that Gods wrath will not harm us as we are sealed unto the day of redemption. The day of redemption is that of Gods wrath poured out into the world during the seven trumpet and vial judgments and then the end will come. Luke 21 explains that of which will come,but we are not to fear, but stand in the Holy place which is our faith and trust in God as many of Gods children will be persecuted to death. Luke was written in the times of Israel, but as Jesus spoke these words they are for all nations from that time until the end of days as many nations were not even developed yet at that time.

The focus in Revelations would seem to center around Israel only and the nations that come against her, but in all truth Revelations is about all of us that keep Gods commandments and the testimony of God’s word as Jesus has commissioned all of us to go out into the world to preach the gospel of grace, Matthew 28:18-20.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Because God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9).

I suppose when they throw you in the arena and get eaten by lions is not great tribulation?
I suppose being used for medical experiments by nazis is not great tribulation.
I suppose being chopped up by a machete while you watch your wife and children being abused is not great tribulation?

Just what is this wrath we are escaping?
It's the great White Throne judgement.
There is no greater wrath than being thrown in the lake of fire for all eternity.

 

[for_his_glory]

I have a question to all those who believe in a pretrib rapture. If we are taken out of here before the great tribulation then why would God give anyone else a chance to repent? How would they hear if the gospel was no longer preached in the world. Do you really think God would take us up, but to only leave two witnesses behind? How are only two witnesses going to preach to all the nations in the world? If we are taken up before the tribulation then what would be the whole purpose of seven years of Gods wrath? Would God not just end everything at that time? What about the mark of the beast? What purpose would that be if we are all gone? Just some things to think about.

 

[JLB]

Because God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9).

Salvation as opposed to wrath is what we are called to obtain.

The Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns at the second coming is the context of the subject matter.

We know that He returns after the great tribulation, in which He will gather His people at the resurrection/rapture, which is the same event.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


The Raptured ones will be caught up together with the Resurrected ones who were first raised from the dead.

We will all be gathered together unto Him, when He comes... After the tribulation.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

I have a question to all those who believe in a pretrib rapture.

There are several questions here, but that's OK

If we are taken out of here before the great tribulation then why would God give anyone else a chance to repent?

Because (1) God knows who did not reject the Gospel and reject Christ before the Rapture and (2) He is ever merciful.

How would they hear if the gospel was no longer preached in the world.

The two witnesses will be seen worldwide and so will the angel who has the everlasting Gospel.

Do you really think God would take us up, but to only leave two witnesses behind?

Why not? There was only one witness at the time of Noah, and that was Noah.

How are only two witnesses going to preach to all the nations in the world?

Using the communication technology which surrounds us.

If we are taken up before the tribulation then what would be the whole purpose of seven years of Gods wrath?

God's wrath will be against unbelief and ungodliness, as well as against the worldwide idolatry perpetrated by the Antichrist.

Would God not just end everything at that time?

Before the New Heavens and the New Earth come into existence, God must deal with His enemies and cleanse the earth from all those who oppose Him and reject Christ. The ultimate objective is to establish the universal Kingdom of God on earth.

What about the mark of the beast? What purpose would that be if we are all gone? Just some things to think about.

The mark of the Beast seals individuals for Hell. It is for those (a) who believed not the truth when they heard it and (2) who were placed under strong delusion in order to believe the lies of Satan. What we seem to forget is that the Gospel is being preached throughout the world (and must be before the Second Coming of Christ). Many are being saved, but many more are scoffing, or rejecting Christ, or going after false gods. Those who desire false gods will receive them. Muslims as well as Hindus and others have become more and more radicalized. Many Jews continue to reject Jesus. Atheists and sexual perverts have become more vocal, and promote their agendas more strongly than before. Gnosticism has been revived, as has witchcraft and occultism in the West. And one could add many more developments to this list. All of these factors are leading to the reign of the Antichrist.

 

[Eugene]

I would challenge anyone to show even one Bible verse that connects the Rapture to the Tribulation.

Dear Brother Malachi, I am of the opinion that Jesus' catching the Church up to Him is in stages. I see it beginning according to Rev 4:1 where we read: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." What is John shown? Twenty-four elders (Rev 4:4), and Four beasts with Jesus.(Rev 4:6). At this point there is no tribulation, the times of the Gentiles continues until the fulness of the Gentiles (Act 15:14 & Rom 11:25).

To me the question should be: How does that portion of the Church get there if not translated? Next you as for one verse connecting the Rapture to the Tribulation. How about Rev 7:13-14? To me, to be seen in heaven by John, they too had to be raptured according to the manner described in 1 Th 4:16-17, the dead in Christ first and then those remaining alive when He comes for them.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

You have been studying, good post.

Thanks th1b.taylor

 

[Malachi]

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Brother Eugene,
On the face of it this verse seems to say that the entire Church went through ("came out of") the Great Tribulation.

But the other option is to interpret it as escaped out of ("came out of") the Great Tribulation. There are at least four reasons why this would be more consistent with the Rapture of the saints before the Great Tribulation:

(1) This countless multitude, which can only represent the Church, is shown in Heaven (Rev 7) long before the Great Tribulation begins (which would be after Revelation 13, where the Beast and the image of the Beast are worshipped). That Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:15-22).

(2) What is promised to the church at Philadelphia is generally applied to all genuine saints (Rev 3:10) since it also corresponds with 1 Thess 5:9,10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth... For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

(3) The Great Tribulation is also the Day of the LORD, and the Day of the LORD is a period of wrath against the unbelieving and the ungodly (Mal 4:1,5): For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Many Christians believe that Elijah will be on the earth with Moses (the two witnesses of Rev 11) before the Great Tribulation. But the point is that this time is reserved for those who oppose God and Christ.

(4) Since all the Tribulation saints are beheaded by the Antichrist (Rev 20:4), if the entire Church went through that period, then the whole Church would be seen as beheaded and martyred. But that is never taught in the New Testament.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[JLB]

Dear Brother Malachi, I am of the opinion that Jesus' catching the Church up to Him is in stages. I see it beginning according to Rev 4:1 where we read: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." What is John shown? Twenty-four elders (Rev 4:4), and Four beasts with Jesus.(Rev 4:6). At this point there is no tribulation, the times of the Gentiles continues until the fulness of the Gentiles (Act 15:14 & Rom 11:25).

Brother,

How does John being invited up to heaven to be shown the things which must take place after this, have anything to do with the tribulation or rapture?

The Resurrection and Rapture occur at His coming.

His coming is after the tribulation.

The Resurrection/Rapture are one event whereby the Resurrected ones are raised from the dead, then just after that those who are alive and remain are caught up together with them... All those who are Christ's will be gathered together.

JLB

 

[Cygnus]

My Bible does not contradict.
If the verses you are using are talking about a pre-trib rapture, them where does Revelation 14:17 fit in?

You still need to get past the horse or no horse issue.

Is Rev 14 about the rapture? I don't think so. It seems to be more about the judgement..gathering of nations, last call.

 

[Cygnus]

please provide the scriptures for you statement please. Thank you

I presented the refeences in post 25.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You still need to get past the horse or no horse issue.

Is Rev 14 about the rapture? I don't think so. It seems to be more about the judgement..gathering of nations, last call.

Hey Cyggy, I like the way you challenge.
I just got home, give me some time.

 

[Eugene]

.
Malachi - On the face of it this verse seems to say that the entire Church went through ("came out of") the Great Tribulation.

Eugene - I agree that a part of the Church went through tribulation because they weren’t ready when Jesus came for His bride and they weren’t with Jesus when He received His own throne in Rev 4:2 prior to the tribulation. Also notice that the 24 elders and four beasts were round about, and in the midst of Jesus’ throne (Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6), and are made kings and priests (Rev 5:10), whereas the great multitude are before the throne of God and are servants instead of kings and priests (Rev 7:15).

Malachi - What is promised to the church at Philadelphia is generally applied to all genuine saints (Rev 3:10) since it also corresponds with 1 Thess 5:9,10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation.

Eugene - These scriptures to me especially apply to those saints who patiently keep the word of God, but there are only two of the seven portions of the true Church which are commended as doing the will of God in this present age, and that is Smyrna representing those who die before the Lord’s coming (Rev 2:10), and Philadelphia that faithfully kept God’s word until they were caught up (Rev 3:10).