Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Jim Parker]

Nope.Those are "nations", as in Gentile's, [which probably shocked His very Jewish Disciples] who will be judged along with the Jews who are His servants.

Apparently you missed the fact that Jews and Gentiles makes up everybody. Once the Jews and Gentiles are gathered, there is no one else in existence anywhere.

The wicked were destroyed, or gathered up by the angels to be burned.

So do you believe in the 7th Day Adventist/Jehovah's Witness heresy of annihilation?

The unbelievers, and the lawless, the tares, who were never His, will be gathered up by the angels and thrown into the fire.

Without a judgment?
Rev 20:12-15 (RSV) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

What I highlighted in blue is just one more attempt to tell all you "End Time Expositors of Amazing and Astounding Facts from the Recently Opened Sealed UP Book of Daniel, Etc." that you will be judged by what you you have done (a la Mat 25:31-46, John 5:28-29; and Ro 6:2-10) but not by what you think you figured out by studying every new wind of doctrine about apocalyptic visions in spite of Jesus telling you it was none of your business.

Have a glorious day.
Be blessed in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

iakov the fool 2

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, it is the revelation of Jesus Christ given to John by the one like the son of man, emphasis on like, being the angel Jesus sent in Rev 1:1.

What emphasis? Yours??? That's meaningless.
Jesus consistently identified Himself as the "son of man". It is widely held by real Bible commentators with real Phds in theology from real seminaries (as opposed to the average untrained dabbler with a 4th grade reading level, a KJ Bible and, allegedly, the guidance of the Holy Ghost) that this self identification was an intentional reference to Dan 7:13, and Dan 8:17

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So the one whom John SAW who was "the first and the last", who "died and was alive for evermore" was an angel and not Jesus.
Which angel is "the first and the last"?
Which angel "died and is alive for evermore"?
Which angel has "the keys of Death and Hades"?
The only individual who fulfills all those requirements is Jesus.

 

[Jim Parker]

Where does Jesus say it's none of our business in Acts 1:8

AH! My mistake. It's the previous verse.
Act 1:7 "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."

There were not seven letters, but many letters written to the seven Churches.

You disagree with at least 90% of legitimate Bible commentators. (Not to be confused with armchair, self-anointed, Bible geniuses) Where do you get this nonsense?

 

[Jim Parker]

Might suggest the same to you to read it word for word and understand what it means to be in the Spirit.

Same to you bubba.
Try not to be so arrogant that you think you know better than real scholars, eh bro?

 

[smaller]

I will give the the same as I gave Jim and also add that John was in the Spirit while given these visions while he was on the isle of Patmos and not up in the third heaven. Might suggest the same to you to read it word for word and understand what it means to be in the Spirit.

Are you suggesting the sights in the Spirit or Christ was not real in those Spiritual sights?

Funnier yet. Maybe quit now while yer ahead.

 

[for_his_glory]

Apparently you missed the fact that Jews and Gentiles makes up everybody. Once the Jews and Gentiles are gathered, there is no one else in existence anywhere.

So do you believe in the 7th Day Adventist/Jehovah's Witness heresy of annihilation?

Without a judgment?
Rev 20:12-15 (RSV) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

What I highlighted in blue is just one more attempt to tell all you "End Time Expositors of Amazing and Astounding Facts from the Recently Opened Sealed UP Book of Daniel, Etc." that you will be judged by what you you have done (a la Mat 25:31-46, John 5:28-29; and Ro 6:2-10) but not by what you think you figured out by studying every new wind of doctrine about apocalyptic visions in spite of Jesus telling you it was none of your business.

Have a glorious day.
Be blessed in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

iakov the fool 2

There is no new doctrine above that which God has already spoke and gave the Prophets and Apostles to write as Daniel was told to seal up the prophecies he was given until the end of days when they would be understood by the wise or those who have the indwelling anointing of the Holy Spirit to teach them, Daniel 8:17; 12:49; John 20:19-22; Rev 1: 10, John 14:26. For one who has no or little knowledge in Revelations who are you to judge the Prophets and Apostles for what they gave us in all truths.

Yes, many run after all those who have written all those "End Times" books to line their pockets as Satan is very deceptive in working through others to cause us to fall away from truth. None of these teachings or I should say theories were ever taught by the Prophets or the Apostles as these teachings started around 1830 and were handed down by through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day.

 

[for_his_glory]

Same to you bubba.
Try not to be so arrogant that you think you know better than real scholars, eh bro?

I'm never arrogant as how would that be pleasing to the Lord. I'm not a bro, but a sister that has studied this word for over 40 years with an intense study of Revelations for the last 10 years which makes me or anyone else a scholar for a scholar is one that studies, but yet will never exhaust the word of God. I attend Bible college everyday like everyone else, but my teacher is the Holy Spirit and the word of God, not some man that gives lectures and uses fancy words I have to look up in a dictionary to understand what he is speaking about and then have to take a test to pass his course.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you suggesting the sights in the Spirit or Christ was not real in those Spiritual sights?

Funnier yet. Maybe quit now while yer ahead.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? This was Jesus trying to explain the new birth to Nicodemus who should have already known this be a master of the word himself, but had no clue of Spiritual things.

Have you ever been in the Spirit? I have many times as many others and what is given to us that we see or just hear are very real insights to what God wants to show us whether they be spiritual or literal for our understanding. Do you believe John literally understood all that was shown Him, I doubt it as he was given things that were past (before his time) present (his time as he would understand) and Future (being things he could only hope for).

 

[JLB]

Apparently you missed the fact that Jews and Gentiles makes up everybody. Once the Jews and Gentiles are gathered, there is no one else in existence anywhere.

Jim, I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

Those in Matthew 25:31-32, are His servants, both Jew and Gentile, as opposed to unbelievers who are Satan's servant's.

Here is your quote, which is primarily what I was addressing -

Jesus will come and gather all nations before Him. (Mat 25:31-32) That includes all of humanity, saints and sinners, past and present at that time.

More specifically it was this phrase, I was addressing.

That includes all of humanity, saints and sinners,...

This is what I say "Nope" to.


Not all of humanity, saints and sinners!

His servants, that is to say, those who are "in covenant" with Him, some who were faithful to the covenant requirements, and some who were unfaithful to the covenant requirements.

Look at the language used by Jesus, here where He begins to teach His disciples about His return, to Judge His people.

...and will cut him in two.

The is language from the Abrahamic Covenant, whereby both Jew and Gentile are apart through faith in Christ Jesus.

Those who are familiar with covenant theology, will instantly recognize this language reference.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Matthew 24:45-51


The faithful servant was judged, as well as the unfaithful servant.

One was welcomed into the kingdom of God, the other was not.


Chapter 25 -

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country,who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done,good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:14-34


Again, the context of Matthew 25:31-32 is about His servants, of whom some will inherit the kingdom of God, which is to say... enter in to the joy of the Lord.

Whereas His servants, who did not inherit the kingdom of God, will be assigned with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth... which is being sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell with the devil and his angels.


The unbelievers, and the lawless, the tares, who were never His, will be gathered up by the angels and thrown into the fire.


39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:39-43


JLB

 

[JLB]

So do you believe in the 7th Day Adventist/Jehovah's Witness heresy of annihilation?

No.

Those who are cast into the lake of fire will be tormented day and night, with no rest.

The destruction is everlasting.

 

[smaller]

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? This was Jesus trying to explain the new birth to Nicodemus who should have already known this be a master of the word himself, but had no clue of Spiritual things.

Have you ever been in the Spirit? I have many times as many others and what is given to us that we see or just hear are very real insights to what God wants to show us whether they be spiritual or literal for our understanding. Do you believe John literally understood all that was shown Him, I doubt it as he was given things that were past (before his time) present (his time as he would understand) and Future (being things he could only hope for).

Was this a real sight? Was Jesus really a LAMB?

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Do you consider this was real or just an illusion?

Similar statements on this subject are found in Rev. 5:13, 6:16, 7:9-10, 7:17, 22:1&3.

All just illusions? Not real?

In all seriousness at some point in these studies one realizes that the Spirit has it's own language and it's own rules that are a bit different than "literal" but are "real" nevertheless, Spiritually.

Trying to mix these "worlds" or jamb them into the same box is always problematic.

Are people really the sheep of His Pasture? Psalm 100:3 among many others.

Are people the waters where the whore who rides the beast sits? Rev. 7:3&15

Do you think Satan and devils are locked into the same form of "time" that man in the flesh is? Rev. 12:12

I think anyone can see that literalism is in no way the correct tool for understandings.

When it comes to understanding "rapture" (which isn't even a term found in the Bible,) it really does deserve much closer attention to a myriad of details and that can take a lifetime of study to examine.

35 years ago I was a like a little baby believer, an essential sucker for the escapism the pre-trib rapture presented as a new believer. Today I wouldn't give 2 cents for the whole lot of the teachings of that particular position or it's sisters, mid and post.

 

[JLB]

Without a judgment?
Rev 20:12-15 (RSV) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

What I highlighted in blue is just one more attempt to tell all you "End Time Expositors of Amazing and Astounding Facts from the Recently Opened Sealed UP Book of Daniel, Etc." that you will be judged by what you you have done (a la Mat 25:31-46, John 5:28-29; and Ro 6:2-10) but not by what you think you figured out by studying every new wind of doctrine about apocalyptic visions in spite of Jesus telling you it was none of your business.

No after the 1000 years, there will be a second resurrection.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:5

The following is an account, that takes place after the 1000 years.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

There is no new doctrine above that which God has already spoke and gave the Prophets and Apostles to write as Daniel was told to seal up the prophecies he was given until the end of days when they would be understood by the wise or those who have the indwelling anointing of the Holy Spirit to teach

AH! That explains it. You're one of those "wise" people Who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't.
OK!
Got it!

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm never arrogant as how would that be pleasing to the Lord. I'm not a bro, but a sister that has studied this word for over 40 years with an intense study of Revelations for the last 10 years which makes me or anyone else a scholar for a scholar is one that studies, but yet will never exhaust the word of God. I attend Bible college everyday like everyone else, but my teacher is the Holy Spirit and the word of God, not some man that gives lectures and uses fancy words I have to look up in a dictionary to understand what he is speaking about and then have to take a test to pass his course.

Well, "sis" that explains a lot.
You're one of the multitude of self-styled Bible experts who thinks he or she is personally much better taught by the Holy Spirit than" some man that gives lectures and uses fancy words I have to look up in a dictionary to understand what he is speaking." And you prefer the "Holy Ghost Bible College" where there aren't any scary tests that you have to pass to demonstrate that you understand the material. You only have to answer to you.

Those people who give lectures have spent their entire adult lives learning the languages of the Bible (did you do that? No?) the cultures in which the scriptures arose (did you do that? No?) and the writings of the the people who gave us the canon of scripture and the 7 great councils that defined the essentials of the faith (Did you do that? No?) and, of course, the scriptures themselves usually in the original languages plus other such "lecturer's" research in their original French, German, Russian, Greek and other languages. (Did you do that? no?)

It is sadly common among people who do not have a formal theological education (and too often not much education at all) to denigrate those who actually have had the training. By denigrating the expertise of those who have dedicated their lives to the study of scripture, the anti-education lot attempt to legitimize and elevate heir feeble personal efforts and understanding above those who are far more qualified. You are unimpressed by the scholarship of those "lecturers." Why? Because you don't possess it yourself. This common embarrassment based anti-education mindset is one reason for the sorry estate of the church today. A well trained theologian may find she can't teach the average Christian anything because mr. or miss average Christian is attending the "Holy Ghost Bible College" and already knows everything.

You'll pardon me, please, if I am duly underwhelmed by your daily "Bible College of the Holy Ghost" credentials viv-a-vis the very extensive educational experience of real scholars.

be blessed

iakov the fool 2

 

[Jim Parker]

No after the 1000 years, there will be a second resurrection.
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:5
The following is an account, that takes place after the 1000 years.
Revelation 20:11-15
JLB

Yeah. That's one view.
Another is that the first resurrection occurs when a believer is buried with Christi in baptism and raised to new life in Christ Jesus. That was Paul's opinion.
And then there's the widely held view that "1000 years" means "a long time." (I believe that was the generally held view until Darby's inventions.)
And then the view that the great white throne judgment is the some as the judgment that happens when Jesus returns. (That would mean there is only one judgment. That's not as exciting as dispensationalism's Cecil B. DeMille epic drama with all the charts and power-point presentations but it makes more sense.)

You may have noticed, we're not going to agree.

 

[JLB]

Yeah. That's one view.
Another is that the first resurrection occurs when a believer is buried with Christi in baptism and raised to new life in Christ Jesus. That was Paul's opinion.

So you believe when a person is water baptized their body is literally resurrected from the dead?

Here's what Paul taught about water baptism.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, Romans 6:5

Here's what Paul taught about the literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23

Water baptism occurs for people individually as they come to Christ, over the last 2000 years.

The literal resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs on the last Day, at the coming of the Lord, in which Christ's people who have literally died, will all be resurrected from the dead, and be caught up to Him in the clouds, in the air, at the same time.

They will receive resurrected bodies that will never die, all at the same time.

I hope and pray you never teach young impressionable Christians, that water baptism is the resurrection of the dead.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, "sis" that explains a lot.
You're one of the multitude of self-styled Bible experts who thinks he or she is personally much better taught by the Holy Spirit than" some man that gives lectures and uses fancy words I have to look up in a dictionary to understand what he is speaking." And you prefer the "Holy Ghost Bible College" where there aren't any scary tests that you have to pass to demonstrate that you understand the material. You only have to answer to you.

Those people who give lectures have spent their entire adult lives learning the languages of the Bible (did you do that? No?) the cultures in which the scriptures arose (did you do that? No?) and the writings of the the people who gave us the canon of scripture and the 7 great councils that defined the essentials of the faith (Did you do that? No?) and, of course, the scriptures themselves usually in the original languages plus other such "lecturer's" research in their original French, German, Russian, Greek and other languages. (Did you do that? no?)

It is sadly common among people who do not have a formal theological education (and too often not much education at all) to denigrate those who actually have had the training. By denigrating the expertise of those who have dedicated their lives to the study of scripture, the anti-education lot attempt to legitimize and elevate heir feeble personal efforts and understanding above those who are far more qualified. You are unimpressed by the scholarship of those "lecturers." Why? Because you don't possess it yourself. This common embarrassment based anti-education mindset is one reason for the sorry estate of the church today. A well trained theologian may find she can't teach the average Christian anything because mr. or miss average Christian is attending the "Holy Ghost Bible College" and already knows everything.

You'll pardon me, please, if I am duly underwhelmed by your daily "Bible College of the Holy Ghost" credentials viv-a-vis the very extensive educational experience of real scholars.

be blessed

iakov the fool 2

Did the Prophets go to Bible college, no. Did the disciples go to Bible college, no. Has every Pastor gone to Bible College, no. Do you know why, because they all had ears to hear what the Spirit was speaking to them. Why is it when I ask a so called theologian or one you deem to be a superior scholar that is suppose to be my leader a question concerning scripture they can not give me an answer. It's because they do not have one so like me they have never exhausted the word of God and none of us ever will.

Here is another question to you. Did John receive these visions in Revelations by man or by the Holy Spirit?

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

BTW, I do study the culture and history of the time of the prophets and the disciples and also the Hebrew and Greek meanings of certain words for their terminology. The essentials of faith are already found in scripture as I need no man to teach me what they are.

 

[for_his_glory]

AH! That explains it. You're one of those "wise" people Who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't.
OK!
Got it!

No sweat off my nose if anyone agrees with me or not for what I bring to the table, but they better agree with what has already been written in scripture by the Prophets and Apostles who had ears to hear what the Spirit spoke to them. Man can not teach us anything apart from what the Holy Spirit has taught them. That is why we need to use discernment to know the spirit of truth or error as Jezebel loves to teach and deceive those as she stands behind the pulpit.

 

[for_his_glory]

What emphasis? Yours??? That's meaningless.
Jesus consistently identified Himself as the "son of man". It is widely held by real Bible commentators with real Phds in theology from real seminaries (as opposed to the average untrained dabbler with a 4th grade reading level, a KJ Bible and, allegedly, the guidance of the Holy Ghost) that this self identification was an intentional reference to Dan 7:13, and Dan 8:17

So the one whom John SAW who was "the first and the last", who "died and was alive for evermore" was an angel and not Jesus.
Which angel is "the first and the last"?
Which angel "died and is alive for evermore"?
Which angel has "the keys of Death and Hades"?
The only individual who fulfills all those requirements is Jesus.

What part of "he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" do you not understand? When did Jesus ever become an angel or did you get that from one of your commentators? I will ignore the 4th grade reading level as that is just rude.

 

[Free]

What part of "he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" do you not understand? When did Jesus ever become an angel or did you get that from one of your commentators? I will ignore the 4th grade reading level as that is just rude.

The one speaking and described in Rev. 1:11-20 is Jesus, without a doubt.