Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[for_his_glory]

AH! My mistake. It's the previous verse.
Act 1:7 "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."

You disagree with at least 90% of legitimate Bible commentators. (Not to be confused with armchair, self-anointed, Bible geniuses) Where do you get this nonsense?

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The above verses speaks about how man is always looking for signs of the return of Jesus, but Jesus said that no man, but only the Father knows when Jesus will return in Gods perfect timing and season.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Nope, don't see anything here that says only seven letters were sent to the seven Churches, but that John is to send them what he sees as he writes these visions in a book and sends them to the seven Churches in Asia.

 

[for_his_glory]

Was this a real sight? Was Jesus really a LAMB?

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Do you consider this was real or just an illusion?

Similar statements on this subject are found in Rev. 5:13, 6:16, 7:9-10, 7:17, 22:1&3.

All just illusions? Not real?

In all seriousness at some point in these studies one realizes that the Spirit has it's own language and it's own rules that are a bit different than "literal" but are "real" nevertheless, Spiritually.

Trying to mix these "worlds" or jamb them into the same box is always problematic.

Are people really the sheep of His Pasture? Psalm 100:3 among many others.

Are people the waters where the whore who rides the beast sits? Rev. 7:3&15

Do you think Satan and devils are locked into the same form of "time" that man in the flesh is? Rev. 12:12

I think anyone can see that literalism is in no way the correct tool for understandings.

When it comes to understanding "rapture" (which isn't even a term found in the Bible,) it really does deserve much closer attention to a myriad of details and that can take a lifetime of study to examine.

35 years ago I was a like a little baby believer, an essential sucker for the escapism the pre-trib rapture presented as a new believer. Today I wouldn't give 2 cents for the whole lot of the teachings of that particular position or it's sisters, mid and post.

Are the parables Jesus taught literal or do they have Spiritual meaning of what we are to learn from them? Even the disciples could not understand these parables with their carnal mind until they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit to understand that of the Spiritual given through the literal. Not all things are literal and not all things are Spiritual.

 

[for_his_glory]

The one speaking and described in Rev. 1:11-20 is Jesus, without a doubt.

Please explain how you see this as being Jesus that spoke to John while you ignore that which was already written:
Rev1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Vs. 11-20 John is still in the Spirit when he heard the voice of God say I am Alpha and Omega and then gave John instruction to write all these visions down in a book that the angel was prepared by Jesus to give him.

 

[JLB]

Did the Prophets go to Bible college, no. Did the disciples go to Bible college, no. Has every Pastor gone to Bible College, no. Do you know why, because they all had ears to hear what the Spirit was speaking to them.

:amen

 

[Free]

Here's what Paul taught about the literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23

What I find interesting here is that you use only a portion of this passage. Perhaps purposely, I don't know, because it actually shows your position to be in error.

1Cor. 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Cor.15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cor.15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (ESV)

Notice the order:

1. Christ comes.
2. Those who are Christ's are raised and death is destroyed.
3. Jesus "delivers the kingdom to God the Father."

There is no 1000 year reign mentioned. Rather, Paul shows that Christ is reigning now. Since no other resurrection is mentioned, it is clear that Paul is talking about the general resurrection, not the first resurrection.

 

[JLB]

No sweat off my nose if anyone agrees with me or not for what I bring to the table, but they better agree with what has already been written in scripture by the Prophets and Apostles who had ears to hear what the Spirit spoke to them. Man can not teach us anything apart from what the Holy Spirit has taught them. That is why we need to use discernment to know the spirit of truth or error as Jezebel loves to teach and deceive those as she stands behind the pulpit.

LIKE!

 

[JLB]

There is no 1000 year reign mentioned.

Let me get this straight, you believe there is no literal 1000 year reign of Christ's people reigning with Him, because Paul didn't mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15?

What I find interesting here is that you use only a portion of this passage. Perhaps purposely, I don't know, because it actually shows your position to be in error.

What's my position, and how does this prove my position is in error?


Here is what I said, in which you quoted -

Here's what Paul taught about the literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man camedeath, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23

The only word's that were mine were: Here's what Paul taught about the literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.

The rest is Paul's word's.

How am I in error by showing from the scriptures that there is a literal resurrection of the dead in Christ?



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

Did the Prophets go to Bible college, no. Did the disciples go to Bible college, no. Has every Pastor gone to Bible College, no. Do you know why, because

In The beginning The Lord taught man about himself, creation and future thing. Then He appointed His called to be witnesses to mankind of His purpose. (Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David and so on) And God called others through those who believed His message as if God was speaking to them also. (John 17:16-23) (1 Thes. 2:10-14). That is how the Church was taught, by learned men of of God. That is teaching. Learning is another thing. One can hear and receive it with joy (feeling good about the message) That is not Salvation. One can hear it and be convicted in their heart and are sorry for their past life. Being sorry is not salvation, it can lead to salvation. Judas Iscariot was sorry for betraying Christ, but never had faith in Christ thou he walked with Him during His whole ministry.
So the best we can do is preach the Gospel. And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness. (1 Tim. 3:16). Godly men can teach through the word of God, but ONLY God can give the increase. (The Spiritual influence of the Holy Spirit of Christ of the supernatural power that gives gifts to each believer) making for a complete and healthy body that lacks for nothing. We are speaking of the wheat here....not tares. Doctrine are important and to be guarded against corruption. But the simplicity is in Christ
for Salvation. So what will be your answer to Christ when He returns to receive the interest on the talents He gave us? That you were the only one that knew the true Gospel? Just curious as to what you feel you have accomplished in the service of Christ, or your calling and election?

 

[JLB]

There is no 1000 year reign mentioned. Rather, Paul shows that Christ is reigning now. Since no other resurrection is mentioned, it is clear that Paul is talking about the general resurrection, not the first resurrection.

Ok great.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I learn something new everyday.


Please show me the scriptures that teaches us there is a "general" resurrection.

Here is the scriptures that teach about the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23


This resurrection of the dead in Christ, happens at His coming.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ is literal.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:45


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

In The beginning The Lord taught man about himself, creation and future thing. Then He appointed His called to be witnesses to mankind of His purpose. (Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David and so on) And God called others through those who believed His message as if God was speaking to them also. (John 17:16-23) (1 Thes. 2:10-14). That is how the Church was taught, by learned men of of God. That is teaching. Learning is another thing. One can hear and receive it with joy (feeling good about the message) That is not Salvation. One can hear it and be convicted in their heart and are sorry for their past life. Being sorry is not salvation, it can lead to salvation. Judas Iscariot was sorry for betraying Christ, but never had faith in Christ thou he walked with Him during His whole ministry.
So the best we can do is preach the Gospel. And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness. (1 Tim. 3:16). Godly men can teach through the word of God, but ONLY God can give the increase. (The Spiritual influence of the Holy Spirit of Christ of the supernatural power that gives gifts to each believer) making for a complete and healthy body that lacks for nothing. We are speaking of the wheat here....not tares. Doctrine are important and to be guarded against corruption. But the simplicity is in Christ
for Salvation. So what will be your answer to Christ when He returns to receive the interest on the talents He gave us? That you were the only one that knew the true Gospel? Just curious as to what you feel you have accomplished in the service of Christ, or your calling and election?

This quote of mine was in answer to what Jim posted about only those who go to seminary schools are the only ones who have the authority to teach us. Only God can give us that authority not some diploma. What I know to be truth taught in the Bible only comes by that of the Holy Spirit as I read word by word, verse by verse and compare scripture with scripture, OT with NT, history of the times and cultures laid out in scripture and the Greek and Hebrew definitions of various words. I use commentaries only for scripture reference as I go to those scriptures to read and understand what they say and not what commentators say they mean as what I have written are also considered commentaries that give explanation to scripture, but also scripture for those to go study for themselves as that is how we learn to discern truth from error.

I can't speak for anyone else, but within the last forty years of attending different Churches and hearing the various teachings that conflicted with other teachings it got to the point that I quit believing everything that came out of the pulpit and started reading and studying scripture for myself as I gave myself over to the Holy Spirit that is the only one who can teach us pure truth. Do I or anyone else have full knowledge of everything that has been written, no, nor could we ever exhaust the word of God. Only those areas to what God wants us to teach is what we present to others. All have different gifts, but yet it is the Holy Spirit that gives each one their gift.

What I have accomplished is that of being a faithful servant that has died to self and live for Christ as I walk in Gods will and not my own and that it is He who has called me to teach first in the prison system and then to the world in all truths to those who will have ears to hear what the Spirit is speaking. I have no idea the interest on the talent God has given me for I have never kept count of those who came to Christ who continues to work through me to bring them to Christ.

 

[Free]

Please explain how you see this as being Jesus that spoke to John while you ignore that which was already written:
Rev1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Vs. 11-20 John is still in the Spirit when he heard the voice of God say I am Alpha and Omega and then gave John instruction to write all these visions down in a book that the angel was prepared by Jesus to give him.

You ignored what Jim previously wrote--some very significant points--that clearly show it can be none other than Jesus, so I will repost them:

1. Verse 13 says this being is "one like a son of man," which we know is a messianic term, a term which Christ used of himself.
2. We notice in verse 14 that his eyes are "like a flame of fire," and in verse 16 that from this being's mouth comes a sword. Compare this with Rev. 19:11-16.
3. In verse 17 this one claims to be "the first and the last," very clearly the same language as in verse 8--'"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty"' (ESV). We also see this again in Rev. 2:8 and Rev.22:12-13. It would be utterly blasphemous for an angel to use such language of themselves.
4. We see in 1:18 this one say, "I died, and behold I am alive forevermore" (ESV). Which angel do you think this is? It can be none other than Christ. This is also seen in 2:8.
5. In Rev. 2:3, this same speaker says, "I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake." Who speaks like this and just whose name is it that is so important? An angel, really?
6. In Rev. 2:13, this same speaker says, "Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness". The angel's name? The faith of the angel? The angel's "faithful witness"?
7. Quite notably, this same speaker says in Rev. 2:18, "The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze" (ESV). This is the same description as given in 1:14-15.
8. In Rev.2:23, this same speaker says, "And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works" (ESV). Can an angel search mind and heart? Is it an angel who "will give...according to your works"?
9. Further, we have verse 25--"until I come"--verse 26--"who keeps my works...I will give authority over the nations"--and verse 27--"even as I myself have received authority from my Father" (ESV). Is it an angel who is coming? Is it an angel's works we are to keep? Is is an angel who has the authority to give believers authority over nations? Do angels ever call God their Father?
10. In Rev.3:5 we once again see this same speaker saying, "I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels" (ESV). Is it an angel who blots out and adds names to the book of life? Again, do angels call God their Father?

I could go on but that is more than sufficient to show that the speaker and person described in Rev. 1:12-20 can be none other than Jesus.

 

[Free]

Let me get this straight, you believe there is no literal 1000 year reign of Christ's people reigning with Him, because Paul didn't mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15?

What's my position, and how does this prove my position is in error?

Perhaps I have misunderstood your position, which I believed to be: Jesus returns, some/all believers are raised to reign with him for 1000 years, and then is the second resurrection and judgement.

If that is your position, then 1 Cor. 15 proves it to be wrong, based on the order of events given. That was my point about the 1000 year reign of Christ. That would be glaring omission in the sequence, don't you think?

 

[for_his_glory]

You ignored what Jim previously wrote--some very significant points--that clearly show it can be none other than Jesus, so I will repost them:

1. Verse 13 says this being is "one like a son of man," which we know is a messianic term, a term which Christ used of himself.
2. We notice in verse 14 that his eyes are "like a flame of fire," and in verse 16 that from this being's mouth comes a sword. Compare this with Rev. 19:11-16.
3. In verse 17 this one claims to be "the first and the last," very clearly the same language as in verse 8--'"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty"' (ESV). We also see this again in Rev. 2:8 and Rev.22:12-13. It would be utterly blasphemous for an angel to use such language of themselves.
4. We see in 1:18 this one say, "I died, and behold I am alive forevermore" (ESV). Which angel do you think this is? It can be none other than Christ. This is also seen in 2:8.
5. In Rev. 2:3, this same speaker says, "I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake." Who speaks like this and just whose name is it that is so important? An angel, really?
6. In Rev. 2:13, this same speaker says, "Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness". The angel's name? The faith of the angel? The angel's "faithful witness"?
7. Quite notably, this same speaker says in Rev. 2:18, "The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze" (ESV). This is the same description as given in 1:14-15.
8. In Rev.2:23, this same speaker says, "And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works" (ESV). Can an angel search mind and heart? Is it an angel who "will give...according to your works"?
9. Further, we have verse 25--"until I come"--verse 26--"who keeps my works...I will give authority over the nations"--and verse 27--"even as I myself have received authority from my Father" (ESV). Is it an angel who is coming? Is it an angel's works we are to keep? Is is an angel who has the authority to give believers authority over nations? Do angels ever call God their Father?
10. In Rev.3:5 we once again see this same speaker saying, "I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels" (ESV). Is it an angel who blots out and adds names to the book of life? Again, do angels call God their Father?

I could go on but that is more than sufficient to show that the speaker and person described in Rev. 1:12-20 can be none other than Jesus.

Then you and Jim have both chosen to ignored what is written in the scripture I gave just as many ignore what is written, but would rather believe what comes out of the pulpit instead. It's no wonder why the rich get richer from the books they peddle.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

, revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Jesus to show these visions to John while in he was in the Spirit and sent His angel to reveal these visions to John. What part of angel and being in the Spirit do you not understand!

 

[smaller]

Are the parables Jesus taught literal or do they have Spiritual meaning of what we are to learn from them?

They are spiritually real. We've covered this before.

Even the disciples could not understand these parables with their carnal mind until they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit to understand that of the Spiritual given through the literal. Not all things are literal and not all things are Spiritual.

Or learned to read Jesus' Word explanations for themselves and believe those explanations. That seems to be exactly where the difficulty always resides, and if we understand the parable and the reality of the parable we'll know why.

It doesn't take spiritual voo doo to connect the dot between Mark 4:4 and it's explained correlative, Mark 4:15 to understand what that parable section means/is. Disciples are to pay attention to Jesus Speakings of these details and to believe them.

Jesus said if we understand that parable, we'll understand them ALL. Mark 4:13.

In that parable we have 3 components. These 3 are the dynamic to understanding. There is Gods Word, mankind and Satan/devils, all involved.

So when we take that basic to Matt. 25 we see the same 3 dynamic in play. It works the same with Revelation. IN Rev. 2-3 in Jesus speaking to the churches what do we hear? We hear of Satan's workings in the church people. Same 3 dynamic.

In that parable (Matt. 25, Mark 4, all the other seed parables, allegories etc) there are Gods Words. Are they real? Spiritual? Of course! Alive and active no less. Heb. 4:12. There are also people. Are they real? Of course! And there is Satan and his messengers.

The end of all of these parables results in the end of Satan and his messengers.

That is the apocalypse, the destruction of THEM and THEIR WORLD. But you see, we really can't see their world.

Or can we? Through the Light of Gods Word, their world becomes apparent and is revealed, when we believe.

Unfortunately very few people read things that way and instead miss these players altogether. I personally don't believe "thee end" is going to be about blood and guts death to mankind, but rather to mankind's adversaries.

Simple but profound difference in sight. Jesus DID come to save mankind and to LATER destroy His and our adversaries. In the meantime they serve Gods Purposes in Divine Judgments.

 

[Free]

Ok great.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I learn something new everyday.


Please show me the scriptures that teaches us there is a "general" resurrection.

Here is the scriptures that teach about the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23


This resurrection of the dead in Christ, happens at His coming.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ is literal.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:45


JLB

Great. Those passages support the idea that Christ returns, there is a resurrection (the second resurrection), and then judgement; the first two passages being the most clear in that regard. No reason to emphasize that the resurrection of the dead in Christ is literal or that it happens at his coming; no one is arguing otherwise.

The argument hinges on just what the first resurrection is. I believe it is most likely referring to salvation.

 

[Free]

Then you and Jim have both chosen to ignored what is written in the scripture I gave just as many ignore what is written, but would rather believe what comes out of the pulpit instead. It's no wonder why the rich get richer from the books they peddle.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

, revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Jesus to show these visions to John while in he was in the Spirit and sent His angel to reveal these visions to John. What part of angel and being in the Spirit do you not understand!

Wow. And you just do the same as in the other thread. You completely fail to address the points given and instead just keep repeating your erroneous argument. The points we gave clearly and utterly refute what you are saying. Please address them, one by one.

Jim and I are clearly not the ones ignoring something. The whole point is that the angel mentioned in verse 1 is clearly not the one who is described and then speaking in the rest of chapter 1 through to the end of chapter 3; that can only be Jesus and that is what we have proven beyond any doubt. You are most likely the only person in the entire history of Christianity to believe that it is an angel and not Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

They are spiritually real. We've covered this before.



Or learned to read Jesus' Word explanations for themselves and believe those explanations. That seems to be exactly where the difficulty always resides, and if we understand the parable and the reality of the parable we'll know why.

It doesn't take spiritual voo doo to connect the dot between Mark 4:4 and it's explained correlative, Mark 4:15 to understand what that parable section means/is. Disciples are to pay attention to Jesus Speakings of these details and to believe them.

Jesus said if we understand that parable, we'll understand them ALL. Mark 4:13.

In that parable we have 3 components. These 3 are the dynamic to understanding. There is Gods Word, mankind and Satan/devils, all involved.

So when we take that basic to Matt. 25 we see the same 3 dynamic in play. It works the same with Revelation. IN Rev. 2-3 in Jesus speaking to the churches what do we hear? We hear of Satan's workings in the church people. Same 3 dynamic.

In that parable (Matt. 25, Mark 4, all the other seed parables, allegories etc) there are Gods Words. Are they real? Spiritual? Of course! Alive and active no less. Heb. 4:12. There are also people. Are they real? Of course! And there is Satan and his messengers.

The end of all of these parables results in the end of Satan and his messengers.

That is the apocalypse, the destruction of THEM and THEIR WORLD. But you see, we really can't see their world.

Or can we? Through the Light of Gods Word, their world becomes apparent and is revealed, when we believe.

Unfortunately very few people read things that way and instead miss these players altogether. I personally don't believe "thee end" is going to be about blood and guts death to mankind, but rather to mankind's adversaries.

Simple but profound difference in sight.

Jesus sat and had to always explain the parables to the disciples as they could not understand them. We no longer have Jesus sitting beside us to explain everything He has spoken, but has given us the Holy Spirit to explain those things of the literal that need explanation.

The disciples never had the written words of Jesus as they are the ones who wrote and testified of Him

Are you calling the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit voodoo, I hope I am taking this wrong!!!

The people in those parables were fictional characters symbolic of what Jesus wanted us to learn from them.

Again, John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

How can they know spiritual things unless they are revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. The parables are unusal stories if you read them as Jesus spoke them. but they have no Spiritual meaning untilthe are Spitiually reveled to us like it was revealed to Nicodemus.

 

[for_his_glory]

Wow. And you just do the same as in the other thread. You completely fail to address the points given and instead just keep repeating your erroneous argument. The points we gave clearly and utterly refute what you are saying. Please address them, one by one.

Jim and I are clearly not the ones ignoring something. The whole point is that the angel mentioned in verse 1 is clearly not the one who is described and then speaking in the rest of chapter 1 through to the end of chapter 3; that can only be Jesus and that is what we have proven beyond any doubt. You are most likely the only person in the entire history of Christianity to believe that it is an angel and not Christ.

I thought I had addressed the points as I gave exactly word for word what Rev 1:1-3 plainly says in the beginning of all that is written in Revelations that were given to John so can you show me which points I missed? Since Jesus is still sitting at the right hand of God up in the third heaven to which John never ascended to, but was only in the Spirit while being incarcerated on the isle of Patmos then how can I believe Jesus would ascend down from Heaven to speak face to face with John. I'm beginning to think you and Jim do not understand what it means to be in the Spirit or maybe have never experienced being in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

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Jesus sat and had to always explain the parables to the disciples as they could not understand them. We no longer have Jesus sitting beside us to explain everything He has spoken, but has given us the Holy Spirit to explain those things of the literal that need explanation.

We have His Word. We have not been left to our imaginations.

The disciples never had the written words of Jesus as they are the ones who wrote and testified of Him

Yes, they did have His Words. They had His Words of the O.T. and He was Living Word, with them, Speaking. Those Speakings were recorded for our behalves.

Are you calling the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit voodoo, I hope I am taking this wrong!!!

I think quite some number of people are thoroughly engaged with their own imaginations fantasies and supposedly "internal" dialogs with Jesus that are absolutely PHONY when we compare those to His Words, yes. Unquestionably.

The people in those parables were fictional characters symbolic of what Jesus wanted us to learn from them.

Uh, no, they were parables of 'people' without the specifics of naming them for the most part, which makes it universally applicable to "real" people. And the devil and his messengers are also "real" but described in figurative, allegorical, symbolic, similitude, parable forms because we can not "see" them with our eyes. But they are real nonetheless.

How can they know spiritual things unless they are revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. The parables are unusal stories if you read them as Jesus spoke them. but they have no Spiritual meaning untilthe are Spitiually reveled to us like it was revealed to Nicodemus.

It's called "hear ye Him." Matt. 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35.

We weren't left with imaginations, fantasies and spiritual voodoo, but I might admit things can get quite strange in understandings when the devil and his messengers come to do their things IN MAN.

 

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I thought I had addressed the points as I gave exactly word for word what Rev 1:1-3 plainly says in the beginning of all that is written in Revelations that were given to John so can you show me which points I missed? Since Jesus is still sitting at the right hand of God up in the third heaven to which John never ascended to, but was only in the Spirit while being incarcerated on the isle of Patmos then how can I believe Jesus would ascend down from Heaven to speak face to face with John. I'm beginning to think you and Jim do not understand what it means to be in the Spirit or maybe have never experienced being in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus spoke directly to Paul several times. Don't know why you would have an issue with Jesus speaking to John in Revelation.

Jesus spoke to the churches in Rev. (which Word John recorded) and to John directly in chapter 1 of Rev. You've had at least 3 people say the same. You're not listening or reading.