Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[for_his_glory]

We have His Word. We have not been left to our imaginations.


Yes, they did have His Words. They had His Words of the O.T. and He was Living Word, with them, Speaking. Those Speakings were recorded for our behalves.


I think quite some number of people are thoroughly engaged with their own imaginations fantasies and supposedly "internal" dialogs with Jesus that are absolutely PHONY when we compare those to His Words, yes. Unquestionably.


Uh, no, they were parables of 'people' without the specifics of naming them for the most part, which makes it universally applicable to "real" people. And the devil and his messengers are also "real" but described in figurative, allegorical, symbolic, similitude, parable forms because we can not "see" them with our eyes. But they are real nonetheless.


It's called "hear ye Him." Matt. 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35.

We weren't left with imaginations, fantasies and spiritual voodoo, but I might admit things can get quite strange in understandings when the devil and his messengers come to do their things IN MAN.

I would think you would know the difference between fiction and none fiction especially in the parables that are fictional, but illustrate a moral lesson. I know I could not understand them at first until they were revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. According to all you have posted here I guess we have no need of the Holy Spirit as all of scripture is literal that we can understand with our carnal mind or maybe you think it was only the disciples that were indwelled with the Holy Spirit and no longer needed, I don't know. I guess water saves us so lets through grace and faith out the door to.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus spoke directly to Paul several times. Don't know why you would have an issue with Jesus speaking to John in Revelation.

Jesus spoke to the churches in Rev. (which Word John recorded) and to John directly in chapter 1 of Rev. You've had at least 3 people say the same. You're not listening or reading.

So Jesus and Paul were face to face standing on the road to Damascus and Jesus and John were face to face while John was on the isle of Patmos. Never read that in scripture. It doesn't matter what three people say, but what scripture already says. I've never heard of anyone have Jesus speak directly to them face to face, but as me and many others that have been in the presence of the Holy Spirit have heard the Spirit speak to us.

 

[Jim Parker]

So you believe when a person is water baptized their body is literally resurrected from the dead?
Here's what Paul taught about water baptism.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, Romans 6:5

That's PART of what Paul said.
Here's what you ignored.
Rom 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
And a better rendering of v. 5 is: For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
The consensus of the early church was that in baptism we die and are raised again to new life as Jesus died and was raised to new life.

St. John Chrysostom on Baptism, Homily XXV Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 14, p. 89
........ In baptism are fulfilled the pledges of our covenant with God; burial and death, resurrection and life; and these take place all at once. For when we immerse our heads in the water, the old man is buried as in a tomb below, and wholly sunk forever; then as we rise again, the new man rises in its stead. ........ To show that what we say is no conjecture, hear Paul saying, “We are buried with Him by Baptism into death”: and again, “Our old man is crucified with Him”: and again: We have been planted together in the likeness of His death.” (RO vi.4-6) And not only is Baptism called a “cross” but the “cross” is called “Baptism.” “With the Baptism,” saith Christ, “that I am Baptized withal shall ye be baptized” (Mark X.39): and “I have a baptism to be baptized with” (LK xii.50) (which ye know not); for as we easily dip and lift our heads again, so He also easily died and rose again when He willed,...

Here's what Paul taught about the literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23

That would be the 2nd resurrection at Christ's second coming.
It does not stand alone. Jesus said that at His coming all of mankind (saints and sinners) would be raised from the dead and judged according to what they had done.

Water baptism occurs for people individually as they come to Christ, over the last 2000 years.

And will continue into the future until the Lord comes.

The literal resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs on the last Day, at the coming of the Lord, in which Christ's people who have literally died, will all be resurrected from the dead, and be caught up to Him in the clouds, in the air, at the same time.

Paul said that we die and are raised to new life in baptism.
That IS a "literal" resurrection. It's not a "pretend" resurrection or a "symbolic" resurrection. It is a literal resurrection in which the old "man of sin" is buried and the new "man of the spirit" is raised from the dead.
Just because it may be deemed "spiritual" does not mean it is not literal and real.

But you believe whatever you like.
Theology is for arguing about.
Faith and faithfulness is for salvation.

 

[Free]

I thought I had addressed the points as I gave exactly word for word what Rev 1:1-3 plainly says in the beginning of all that is written in Revelations that were given to John so can you show me which points I missed?

My post #1131--there are 10 points:

1. Verse 13 says this being is "one like a son of man," which we know is a messianic term, a term which Christ used of himself.
2. We notice in verse 14 that his eyes are "like a flame of fire," and in verse 16 that from this being's mouth comes a sword. Compare this with Rev. 19:11-16.
3. In verse 17 this one claims to be "the first and the last," very clearly the same language as in verse 8--'"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty"' (ESV). We also see this again in Rev. 2:8 and Rev.22:12-13. It would be utterly blasphemous for an angel to use such language of themselves.
4. We see in 1:18 this one say, "I died, and behold I am alive forevermore" (ESV). Which angel do you think this is? It can be none other than Christ. This is also seen in 2:8.
5. In Rev. 2:3, this same speaker says, "I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake." Who speaks like this and just whose name is it that is so important? An angel, really?
6. In Rev. 2:13, this same speaker says, "Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness". The angel's name? The faith of the angel? The angel's "faithful witness"?
7. Quite notably, this same speaker says in Rev. 2:18, "The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze" (ESV). This is the same description as given in 1:14-15.
8. In Rev.2:23, this same speaker says, "And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works" (ESV). Can an angel search mind and heart? Is it an angel who "will give...according to your works"?
9. Further, we have verse 25--"until I come"--verse 26--"who keeps my works...I will give authority over the nations"--and verse 27--"even as I myself have received authority from my Father" (ESV). Is it an angel who is coming? Is it an angel's works we are to keep? Is is an angel who has the authority to give believers authority over nations? Do angels ever call God their Father?
10. In Rev.3:5 we once again see this same speaker saying, "I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels" (ESV). Is it an angel who blots out and adds names to the book of life? Again, do angels call God their Father?

I could go on but that is more than sufficient to show that the speaker and person described in Rev. 1:12-20 can be none other than Jesus.

What you are doing by not replying to these points and simply posting a verse, is pitting Scripture against Scripture. You need to show how these 10 points support the being that is described as being an angel. Our point is that the angel simply cannot be the one who is described and is speaking in Rev. 1:10 through to 3:22.

Since Jesus is still sitting at the right hand of God up in the third heaven to which John never ascended to, but was only in the Spirit while being incarcerated on the isle of Patmos then how can I believe Jesus would ascend down from Heaven to speak face to face with John. I'm beginning to think you and Jim do not understand what it means to be in the Spirit or maybe have never experienced being in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Being in the Spirit is completely and utterly irrelevant as to whom it is that is being described and is talking in Rev. 1:10 to 3:22.

 

[JLB]

That's PART of what Paul said.
Here's what you ignored.
Rom 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
And a better rendering of v. 5 is: For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
The consensus of the early church was that in baptism we die and are raised again to new life as Jesus died and was raised to new life.

St. John Chrysostom on Baptism, Homily XXV Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 14, p. 89
........ In baptism are fulfilled the pledges of our covenant with God; burial and death, resurrection and life; and these take place all at once. For when we immerse our heads in the water, the old man is buried as in a tomb below, and wholly sunk forever; then as we rise again, the new man rises in its stead. ........ To show that what we say is no conjecture, hear Paul saying, “We are buried with Him by Baptism into death”: and again, “Our old man is crucified with Him”: and again: We have been planted together in the likeness of His death.” (RO vi.4-6) And not only is Baptism called a “cross” but the “cross” is called “Baptism.” “With the Baptism,” saith Christ, “that I am Baptized withal shall ye be baptized” (Mark X.39): and “I have a baptism to be baptized with” (LK xii.50) (which ye know not); for as we easily dip and lift our heads again, so He also easily died and rose again when He willed,...

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection...
Romans 6:5

Paul clarify's that it is in the "likeness" of His death and resurrection, signifying that Baptism identify's us with the death and resurrection of Christ, and that we ourselves will attain to the resurrection of the dead in Christ, at His coming, which in no way means, that Baptism is somehow the literal resurrection of the dead, since we have to first die literally, in order to be resurrected from the dead.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Did the Prophets go to Bible college, no.

And I bet you think that has bearing on my comments.
Was there in existence an institution called a "bible College" or "Seminary" at the time of the prophets? No.
Was there a complete Old Testament or any of the New Testament at the time of the prophets? No.
So there was no "Bible" to teach, only the Law.

Did the disciples go to Bible college, no.

They were personally taught by God the Son for three and a half years. That's better than any Bible College.
Paul was taught "at the feet of Gamaliel", one of the leading theologians of his time. (Act 22:3) That refers to what is called a "yeshiva"; the gathering about a teacher of a group of disciples. It is the precursor of what we today call a "Bible College." It is exactly the same as what Jesus did with his apostles.

Why is it when I ask a so called theologian or one you deem to be a superior scholar that is suppose to be my leader a question concerning scripture they can not give me an answer.

I have no idea any more than I would know why Johnny's shoe is untied.
Maybe you asked the wrong person.
Maybe you asked a question which, in order to properly answer, would require your re-education and which would take more time than he had to spend with you.

Did John receive these visions in Revelations by man or by the Holy Spirit?

And, by that question you display your complete lack of understanding of even what this conversation is about.
Are we talking about RECEIVING visions or about the MEANING OF visions.
They are two completely different things.
That very simple fact escapes you and yet you deem yourself an expert on interpretation of apocalyptic scripture!
And you eschew Bible College training because you think you are more qualified than those teachers!
I've heard this line of nonsense a hundred times from people who refuse to be taught by qualified teachers because they think they are being "taught by the Holy Spirit."

Of course not all teachers are good teachers just because they have "PhD" after their name. There are plenty of peddlers of theo-babble among them. Arius, who created the first church-wide theological crisis with his heresy was a teacher in Alexandria. And the German theologians of the 18th and 19th centuries who tried to apply the scientific method to the Bible ended up throwing out miracles and the resurrection and the virgin birth. The church responded with fundamentalism which affirmed the basic teachings of the Church.

It is a serious personal problem when anyone decides that they don't need to be taught because they have the leading of the Holy Spirit. I have met very very few people who are truly led by the Holy Spirit. Most people simply and arrogantly assume they are and on one can tell them differently.

I've graduated from seminary but I don't trust my knowledge or understanding and I know that my ability to follow the Holy Spirit waxes and wanes. So, I consult the people who defined the doctrines of the church in the first 8 centuries and I accept the teaching of the Orthodox Church because their teaching and doctrine is firmly based on the teaching of those true experts.

If I don't trust my own understanding then I certainly am doubly skeptical about the "Holy Ghost" revelations that so many self-declared "Bible experts" post on some electronic bathroom wall called a "forum."

So we're going to disagree.
We'll get the full explanation when we see Jesus.

iakov the fool

 

[for_his_glory]

That's PART of what Paul said.
Here's what you ignored.
Rom 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
And a better rendering of v. 5 is: For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
The consensus of the early church was that in baptism we die and are raised again to new life as Jesus died and was raised to new life.

St. John Chrysostom on Baptism, Homily XXV Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 14, p. 89
........ In baptism are fulfilled the pledges of our covenant with God; burial and death, resurrection and life; and these take place all at once. For when we immerse our heads in the water, the old man is buried as in a tomb below, and wholly sunk forever; then as we rise again, the new man rises in its stead. ........ To show that what we say is no conjecture, hear Paul saying, “We are buried with Him by Baptism into death”: and again, “Our old man is crucified with Him”: and again: We have been planted together in the likeness of His death.” (RO vi.4-6) And not only is Baptism called a “cross” but the “cross” is called “Baptism.” “With the Baptism,” saith Christ, “that I am Baptized withal shall ye be baptized” (Mark X.39): and “I have a baptism to be baptized with” (LK xii.50) (which ye know not); for as we easily dip and lift our heads again, so He also easily died and rose again when He willed,...

That would be the 2nd resurrection at Christ's second coming.
It does not stand alone. Jesus said that at His coming all of mankind (saints and sinners) would be raised from the dead and judged according to what they had done.

And will continue into the future until the Lord comes.

Paul said that we die and are raised to new life in baptism.
That IS a "literal" resurrection. It's not a "pretend" resurrection or a "symbolic" resurrection. It is a literal resurrection in which the old "man of sin" is buried and the new "man of the spirit" is raised from the dead.
Just because it may be deemed "spiritual" does not mean it is not literal and real.

But you believe whatever you like.
Theology is for arguing about.
Faith and faithfulness is for salvation.

Consensus are only the social gathering of those who have a like mind, but has nothing to do with truth. It's concensus that nailed Christ to the cross as being a blasphemer.

More first century redderick with their belief in the Nicene creed and adding to the scripture. My first century fathers are Abraham, Jacob Isaac as they lived in the first century.

Apparently you know nothing about physical death and Spiritual death. We are resurrected with Christ in the Spiritual sense as we have died to the flesh and now walk in the Spirit. 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 is speaking about a literal (first) resurrection when Christ returns on the last day as He makes an end to all abominations casting the beast, false prophet and then Satan into the lake of fire as the kingdoms of God will be turned over to Him once again starting in Rev 11:15 with the seventh trumpet that sounds Gods final judgement that will end all abominations that have caused much desolation.

It's after the separating of the wheat and tares in Rev 14:14-20 that the final seven vial judgements are poured out on those who refuse to repent and then the end comes as we are then part of the first resurrection and will be with the Lord forever.

The first first resurrection your so called first century fathers are speaking of is found in: Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

 

[JLB]

Paul said that we die and are raised to new life in baptism.
That IS a "literal" resurrection.

Completely False.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:1-11

This is Paul trying to get the immoral Romans, to understand they are not to continue in sin, by explaining why Baptism is our act, outward expression of identifying with Christ in His death and resurrection.

Paul encourages them walk in the new life they have been given, and turn away from sin.

...just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

....For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

...knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.


12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:12-16


Paul encourages them and us to "reckon ourselves" dead to sin, and to not let sin reign in our body, as well as do not present our members as slaves to sin.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


The choice is still their for us to choose.
Sin which leads to death.
Obedience which leads to righteousness.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

My post #1131--there are 10 points:

1. Verse 13 says this being is "one like a son of man," which we know is a messianic term, a term which Christ used of himself.
2. We notice in verse 14 that his eyes are "like a flame of fire," and in verse 16 that from this being's mouth comes a sword. Compare this with Rev. 19:11-16.
3. In verse 17 this one claims to be "the first and the last," very clearly the same language as in verse 8--'"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty"' (ESV). We also see this again in Rev. 2:8 and Rev.22:12-13. It would be utterly blasphemous for an angel to use such language of themselves.
4. We see in 1:18 this one say, "I died, and behold I am alive forevermore" (ESV). Which angel do you think this is? It can be none other than Christ. This is also seen in 2:8.
5. In Rev. 2:3, this same speaker says, "I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake." Who speaks like this and just whose name is it that is so important? An angel, really?
6. In Rev. 2:13, this same speaker says, "Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness". The angel's name? The faith of the angel? The angel's "faithful witness"?
7. Quite notably, this same speaker says in Rev. 2:18, "The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze" (ESV). This is the same description as given in 1:14-15.
8. In Rev.2:23, this same speaker says, "And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works" (ESV). Can an angel search mind and heart? Is it an angel who "will give...according to your works"?
9. Further, we have verse 25--"until I come"--verse 26--"who keeps my works...I will give authority over the nations"--and verse 27--"even as I myself have received authority from my Father" (ESV). Is it an angel who is coming? Is it an angel's works we are to keep? Is is an angel who has the authority to give believers authority over nations? Do angels ever call God their Father?
10. In Rev.3:5 we once again see this same speaker saying, "I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels" (ESV). Is it an angel who blots out and adds names to the book of life? Again, do angels call God their Father?

I could go on but that is more than sufficient to show that the speaker and person described in Rev. 1:12-20 can be none other than Jesus.

What you are doing by not replying to these points and simply posting a verse, is pitting Scripture against Scripture. You need to show how these 10 points support the being that is described as being an angel. Our point is that the angel simply cannot be the one who is described and is speaking in Rev. 1:10 through to 3:22.


Being in the Spirit is completely and utterly irrelevant as to whom it is that is being described and is talking in Rev. 1:10 to 3:22.

I have addressed all 10 points as I said
1. God gave these revelations to Jesus
2. Jesus told all these revelations from God to the angel
3. The angel gave all of Gods revelations to John while he was in the Spirit
Being in the Spirit is very relevant to how John received them

 

[JLB]

Great. Those passages support the idea that Christ returns, there is a resurrection (the second resurrection), and then judgement; the first two passages being the most clear in that regard. No reason to emphasize that the resurrection of the dead in Christ is literal or that it happens at his coming; no one is arguing otherwise.

The argument hinges on just what the first resurrection is. I believe it is most likely referring to salvation.

What????

Try it again: Please show me the scriptures that teaches us there is a "general" resurrection.

Here is the scriptures that teach about the resurrection of the dead in Christ. [Not a "general resurrection"]

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thenwe who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man camedeath, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23


This resurrection of the dead in Christ, happens at His coming.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ is literal.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received hismark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:45


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

And I bet you think that has bearing on my comments.
Was there in existence an institution called a "bible College" or "Seminary" at the time of the prophets? No.
Was there a complete Old Testament or any of the New Testament at the time of the prophets? No.
So there was no "Bible" to teach, only the Law.

They were personally taught by God the Son for three and a half years. That's better than any Bible College.
Paul was taught "at the feet of Gamaliel", one of the leading theologians of his time. (Act 22:3) That refers to what is called a "yeshiva"; the gathering about a teacher of a group of disciples. It is the precursor of what we today call a "Bible College." It is exactly the same as what Jesus did with his apostles.

I have no idea any more than I would know why Johnny's shoe is untied.
Maybe you asked the wrong person.
Maybe you asked a question which, in order to properly answer, would require your re-education and which would take more time than he had to spend with you.

And, by that question you display your complete lack of understanding of even what this conversation is about.
Are we talking about RECEIVING visions or about the MEANING OF visions.
They are two completely different things.
That very simple fact escapes you and yet you deem yourself an expert on interpretation of apocalyptic scripture!
And you eschew Bible College training because you think you are more qualified than those teachers!
I've heard this line of nonsense a hundred times from people who refuse to be taught by qualified teachers because they think they are being "taught by the Holy Spirit."

Of course not all teachers are good teachers just because they have "PhD" after their name. There are plenty of peddlers of theo-babble among them. Arius, who created the first church-wide theological crisis with his heresy was a teacher in Alexandria. And the German theologians of the 18th and 19th centuries who tried to apply the scientific method to the Bible ended up throwing out miracles and the resurrection and the virgin birth. The church responded with fundamentalism which affirmed the basic teachings of the Church.

It is a serious personal problem when anyone decides that they don't need to be taught because they have the leading of the Holy Spirit. I have met very very few people who are truly led by the Holy Spirit. Most people simply and arrogantly assume they are and on one can tell them differently.

I've graduated from seminary but I don't trust my knowledge or understanding and I know that my ability to follow the Holy Spirit waxes and wanes. So, I consult the people who defined the doctrines of the church in the first 8 centuries and I accept the teaching of the Orthodox Church because their teaching and doctrine is firmly based on the teaching of those true experts.

If I don't trust my own understanding then I certainly am doubly skeptical about the "Holy Ghost" revelations that so many self-declared "Bible experts" post on some electronic bathroom wall called a "forum."

So we're going to disagree.
We'll get the full explanation when we see Jesus.

iakov the fool

You have contradicted yourself so much. First you say we need to believe the educated Scholars who have a PhD and then you say you can not trust all their teachings. Then we are only to believe what the Orthodox Church teaches because their teaching and doctrine is firmly based on the teaching of those true experts. So who are these experts we are to believe? I think I will stick with what has already been written and reveal by the Holy Spirit. I'm no expert and would never claim to be, but only give what the Holy Spirit gives me for I can not go beyond that of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jim Parker]

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection...
Romans 6:5 Paul clarify's that it is in the "likeness" of His death and resurrection, signifying that Baptism identify's us with the death and resurrection of Christ, and that we ourselves will attain to the resurrection of the dead in Christ, at His coming, which in no way means, that Baptism is somehow the literal resurrection of the dead, since we have to first die literally, in order to be resurrected from the dead.
JLB

Again, you ignore the rest of what Paul ha to say.
Rom 6:6-13 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin.
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.
And Col 2:12 you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

In baptism we died with Christ and we have been brought from death to life.
We have been buried with Christ in baptism and raised with Him to new life.

I'll just go with what Paul said; I was crucified with \Christ and buried into His death and then resurrected to new life.
You go with whatever floats yer boat.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Consensus are only the social gathering of those who have a like mind, but has nothing to do with truth.

Oh realy??

So if I really want the truth, I should ask you because you are taught by the "Holy Spirit."

Right.

 

[Jim Parker]

Completely False.

whatever.

 

[Jim Parker]

You have contradicted yourself so much.

then ignore me

 

[Free]

I have addressed all 10 points as I said
1. God gave these revelations to Jesus
2. Jesus told all these revelations from God to the angel
3. The angel gave all of Gods revelations to John while he was in the Spirit
Being in the Spirit is very relevant to how John received them

No, that is not at all addressing the points. Addressing them would be going through them one at a time and directly responding to what I have written. Please at least try.

 

[Free]

What????

Try it again: Please show me the scriptures that teaches us there is a "general" resurrection.

Here is the scriptures that teach about the resurrection of the dead in Christ. [Not a "general resurrection"]

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thenwe who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man camedeath, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23


This resurrection of the dead in Christ, happens at His coming.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ is literal.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received hismark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:45


JLB

Try what again? Don't get so hung up on the word "general." It's pretty clear what I am saying. There is a final resurrection when Jesus returns, when both the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected. I would use the same verses you are using, so there is no point in reposting them.

 

[JLB]

Try what again? Don't get so hung up on the word "general." It's pretty clear what I am saying. There is a final resurrection when Jesus returns, when both the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected. I would use the same verses you are using, so there is no point in reposting them.

There is the resurrection of His people, His servants, that will be judged when He returns.

This is not the resurrection of unbelievers, which takes place after the 1000 years are through.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31-32

These are His servants, who were either faithful or unfaithful.

This is the first resurrection as stated in Revelation 20:5.

The context of Matthew 25:31-32 is that of His servants, as He is the Sheppard of both the sheep and the goats.

He starts the context, back in Matthew 24:45, about "His servants" and the judgement He will judge them by when He returns.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


Chapter 25 -

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country,who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done,good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you havewhat is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:14-34


Again, the context of Matthew 25:31-32 is about His servants, of whom some will inherit the kingdom of God, which is to say... enter in to the joy of the Lord.

Whereas His servants, who did not inherit the kingdom of God, will be assigned with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth... which is being sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell with the devil and his angels.


The unbelievers, and the lawless, the tares, who were never His, will be gathered up by the angels and thrown into the fire.


Judgement begins in the house of God.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesis, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

This is Jesus talking to John, and asking him to look around on this Lord's day, and write what you see, and then send it to the seven churches of Asia. These seven churches represent all of the types of churches that exist on the earth in these last days.

Which of these churches represent your church? Can you identify the type of church by the teaching in that church. Jesus said, I want you, John, to show each of those churches exactly what is going to happen at the end of this earth age, and what I think of each of them. The next two chapters will give us the details of the doctrine of each of these churches.

 

[smaller]

So Jesus and Paul were face to face standing on the road to Damascus and Jesus and John were face to face while John was on the isle of Patmos.

1 Corinthians 15:
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Never read that in scripture. It doesn't matter what three people say, but what scripture already says.

I'd consider myself as having an intimate familiarity. And that has also caused me to realize the depth of understanding is entirely past myself and worthy of my following after and has been for my lifetime. And I expect that to continue.

Pat stories no longer interest me.

I've never heard of anyone have Jesus speak directly to them face to face, but as me and many others that have been in the presence of the Holy Spirit have heard the Spirit speak to us.

Yeah, well, what can I say? It's a common anomaly. Everyone thinks they hear but who really listens?

And from there who really works together to find out more? My own alliances have been few, but the few I have who treasure Gods Words as I do are treasures to my heart because we see the depth of Him is endless and that is in HIS WORDS. And in this way we see alike, that being without end.