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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

1 Corinthians 15:
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.



I'd consider myself as having an intimate familiarity. And that has also caused me to realize the depth of understanding is entirely past myself and worthy of my following after and has been for my lifetime. And I expect that to continue.

Pat stories no longer interest me.



Yeah, well, what can I say? It's a common anomaly. Everyone thinks they hear but who really listens?

And from there who really works together to find out more? My own alliances have been few, but the few I have who treasure Gods Words as I do are treasures to my heart because we see the depth of Him is endless and that is in HIS WORDS. And in this way we see alike, that being without end.

Yes, many saw Jesus after he rose from the grave and walked among them for there were around 500 that saw Him, but it was before He ascended up to the Father. Before He ascended Jesus showed himself to the disciples three different times and breathed on them as they were then filled with the Holy Spirit just as Paul was as Jesus sent him out to the Gentiles. All these things were done before He ascended up to the Father, John Chapters 20 and 21; 1Corinthians 8:8.

Those who only have a intimate familiarity with Jesus have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and can never truly know Christ, nor have the mind of Christ for they seek earthly things and not those things from above in the heavenly, Colossians 3:1-4. This is why so many churches are dead and have no life in Christ for they are never taught about the joy and fulfilling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus calls these churches the church of Laodicea, Rev 3:14-22.

Many have Gods word as it's called the Bible as it is worshipped more than God as they have not the word in their heart.
 
Yes, many saw Jesus after he rose from the grave and walked among them for there were around 500 that saw Him, but it was before He ascended up to the Father. Before He ascended Jesus showed himself to the disciples three different times and breathed on them as they were then filled with the Holy Spirit just as Paul was as Jesus sent him out to the Gentiles. All these things were done before He ascended up to the Father, John Chapters 20 and 21; 1Corinthians 8:8.

I think my advice for you prior to quit while you were ahead was well founded.

Jesus did not appear to Saul/Paul prior to the ascension.

Where in the world do you come up with this stuff???

Many have Gods word as it's called the Bible as it is worshipped more than God as they have not the word in their heart.

And of course you miss both the circular reasoning employed (trying to claim the Word in heart is different than the actual written Word) above as well as the quite facile argument of attempting to draw a non-existing distinction between God and His Own Words, which doesn't exist.

This is turning into a bit of a snore fest at this point.
 
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Oh realy??

So if I really want the truth, I should ask you because you are taught by the "Holy Spirit."

Right.
The answer would be no for if you have the anointing of the Holy Spirit you would know truth, 1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

 
What I have accomplished is that of being a faithful servant that has died to self and live for Christ as I walk in Gods will and not my own and that it is He who has called me to teach first in the prison system and then to the world in all truths to those who will have ears to hear what the Spirit is speaking. I have no idea the interest on the talent God has given me for I have never kept count of those who came to Christ who continues to work through me to bring them to Christ.
You give yourself too much credit glory. I have nothing in myself to say that I have achieved what Christ called and elected me to be. Even humbling our self to others before God can be bragging. I'am solely dependent on the Lord God. His Spirit in me is never absent. That is not a statement of superiority over anyone or that I'am more Holy than anyone else, but that's just the way it is. Even so, I still stumble now and then in the flesh. I also did a death row prison ministry and saw the Lord take a man off of death row and make him a witness of God's grace. That was a powerful testimony of God, not just answering prayer, but changing a man's life. If you are fellowshiping with the Lord, you would know me, but you have accused me of teaching false doctrine and irrelevant as a member of the body of Christ. Even if that was true (and it isn't) How by your judging Spirit would it draw me to Christ? What it does is produce resentment between believers. Every believer who trust in Christ, from the most fallible man to the most illustrious Saint, all have the same title before Christ throne, if they are trusting Christ for their salvation (that is, the Christ of Scripture) not mans theology. I'am surprised at the amount of those that say they are christian at their insulting post when discussing doctrine. It is not above us to be zealous for what we believe, but how much we could learn if we would discuss with Scripture proof. Scripture proof is not just a few Scriptures taken out of context. And often, the ones that complain about being insulted, are the one that do the insulting. All we do is give God a bad name. Is anyone looking at the times, and the sea of immorality in our country? We have a presidential candidate that is a habitual lire and the majority of the population want her as president. What does that say about our country? And many of them call their self Christians. How much responsibility do we bare in this since we are ambassadors of Christ?
 
The answer would be no for if you have the anointing of the Holy Spirit you would know truth, 1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

:thumbsup
 
No, that is not at all addressing the points. Addressing them would be going through them one at a time and directly responding to what I have written. Please at least try.

I don't need to address each and everyone of your points again as I have already addressed them, but you refuse to read and understand what Rev 1:1 says. It could not be any clearer.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
 
Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesis, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

This is Jesus talking to John, and asking him to look around on this Lord's day, and write what you see, and then send it to the seven churches of Asia. These seven churches represent all of the types of churches that exist on the earth in these last days.

Which of these churches represent your church? Can you identify the type of church by the teaching in that church. Jesus said, I want you, John, to show each of those churches exactly what is going to happen at the end of this earth age, and what I think of each of them. The next two chapters will give us the details of the doctrine of each of these churches.

No, the angel gave these revelations to John by what God showed Jesus, what Jesus showed the angel and what the angel showed John

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
 
I don't need to address each and everyone of your points again as I have already addressed them, but you refuse to read and understand what Rev 1:1 says. It could not be any clearer.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Yes, you do need to address the points one by one. Firstly, because it is the courteous and proper thing to do in a debate. And secondly, because they prove you are wrong. You are being intellectually dishonest.
 
I think my advice for you prior to quit while you were ahead was well founded.

Jesus did not appear to Saul/Paul prior to the ascension.

Where in the world do you come up with this stuff???



And of course you miss both the circular reasoning employed (trying to claim the Word in heart is different than the actual written Word) above as well as the quite facile argument of attempting to draw a non-existing distinction between God and His Own Words, which doesn't exist.

This is turning into a bit of a snore fest at this point.

Paul possibly saw Jesus and probably heard Him speak while he studied under Gamaliel in Jerusalem for he was a Jew under the law, Acts 22:3. In 2Corinthians 5:16 Paul speaks of those who only knew Jesus in the flesh and then goes on to speak about knowing Jesus in the Spirit through the Spiritual rebirth that makes all things new as we are then in Christ. Acts 9:3-5 Paul only hears the voice of Jesus, but never saw Him. So no, Paul never saw Jesus face to face after Jesus was crucified.
 
You give yourself too much credit glory. I have nothing in myself to say that I have achieved what Christ called and elected me to be. Even humbling our self to others before God can be bragging. I'am solely dependent on the Lord God. His Spirit in me is never absent. That is not a statement of superiority over anyone or that I'am more Holy than anyone else, but that's just the way it is. Even so, I still stumble now and then in the flesh. I also did a death row prison ministry and saw the Lord take a man off of death row and make him a witness of God's grace. That was a powerful testimony of God, not just answering prayer, but changing a man's life. If you are fellowshiping with the Lord, you would know me, but you have accused me of teaching false doctrine and irrelevant as a member of the body of Christ. Even if that was true (and it isn't) How by your judging Spirit would it draw me to Christ? What it does is produce resentment between believers. Every believer who trust in Christ, from the most fallible man to the most illustrious Saint, all have the same title before Christ throne, if they are trusting Christ for their salvation (that is, the Christ of Scripture) not mans theology. I'am surprised at the amount of those that say they are christian at their insulting post when discussing doctrine. It is not above us to be zealous for what we believe, but how much we could learn if we would discuss with Scripture proof. Scripture proof is not just a few Scriptures taken out of context. And often, the ones that complain about being insulted, are the one that do the insulting. All we do is give God a bad name. Is anyone looking at the times, and the sea of immorality in our country? We have a presidential candidate that is a habitual lire and the majority of the population want her as president. What does that say about our country? And many of them call their self Christians. How much responsibility do we bare in this since we are ambassadors of Christ?

There is no one above their master which is Christ Jesus who has given us the earnest of His Spirit that teaches us all truths to those who have Spiritual ears to hear what is being taught them. This is why we can do nothing of ourselves as it is no longer "I" that lives, but Christ who lives in me and works through me. Many do try to serve two masters, but will only be brought down as there is no fence riding when it comes to our relationship with Christ.

Show me where I have ever been rude or insulted anyone or have called them a liar ect. ect. Would that truly bring any glory to God, no, but shame on myself. Do I claim to have all truth, no, am I perfect, far from it, but can only give what I have studied apart from what man has ever taught me. These forums are to be that of discussions and sharing the word of God with each other, not a battlefield of Christian vs. Christian. Will we always agree with each other, no, as we can only give what we feel is truth and then let others either ask why we believe the way we do or reply with what they either disagree on as we can discuss the indifference, but can never force what we believe on others.
 
Yes, you do need to address the points one by one. Firstly, because it is the courteous and proper thing to do in a debate. And secondly, because they prove you are wrong. You are being intellectually dishonest.

Have you ever read a book by starting in the middle of it instead of reading the first paragraph? This is what you are doing without seeing you are doing it. All your points are valid for the scriptures you gave as what you have given is exactly what God has said to John, but given these revelations to John by Gods messenger which is the angel that showed John all Gods revelations while John was in the Spirit.
 
As it pertains to the [hundreds of novel selling] theories on the so called 'rapture,' which doesn't even exist per se, this list (which was posted here several years ago, I forget by whom) shows the intricacies of the coming of or return of Jesus.

The short version is that this is NOT a simple topic, and imho, not a topic that any of the 3 major pre/mid/post trib theories even come close to describing yet alone encompassing the many statements of Jesus (particularly linked to their Old Testament correlative scriptures.) I've yet to see a SINGLE adherent of any 3 of those major camps be able to handle the various depictions.

Sure, they all have bits and pieces. But because none of these 3 postures are capable of handling all of the scriptures, that is exactly WHY we ended up with 3 BLIND MICE postures.

[credit to whoever put these together previously]

· In Mark 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS.

· In Matthew 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING.

· In Revelation 16:15 He comes as a THIEF.

· In Matthew 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM.

· In Revelation 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR.

· In Malachi 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING.

· In Philippians 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER.

· In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE.

· In Malachi 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP.

· In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR.

· In Hosea 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN.

· In Revelation 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE.

· In Matthew 25:31-34 He comes as KING.

· In 1 Peter 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD.

· In Matthew 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS.

· In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS.

· In John 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS.

· In 2 Thessalonians 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS.

· In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT.

· In Revelation 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS.

· In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God.
 
Paul was very specific:

1 Corinthians 15:
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Here is the question you need to ask yourself, what does the words "after that" mean in vs. 7. It means after Jesus rose from the grave and was shown to over 500 people which would include Paul only seeing Jesus before He ascended up to the Father to sit at His right hand. Paul only saw a bright light and heard the voice of Jesus speaking through that light while on the road to Damascus, not Jesus, himself.
 
As it pertains to the [hundreds of novel selling] theories on the so called 'rapture,' which doesn't even exist per se, this list (which was posted here several years ago, I forget by whom) shows the intricacies of the coming of or return of Jesus.

The short version is that this is NOT a simple topic, and imho, not a topic that any of the 3 major pre/mid/post trib theories even come close to describing yet alone encompassing the many statements of Jesus (particularly linked to their Old Testament correlative scriptures.) I've yet to see a SINGLE adherent of any 3 of those major camps be able to handle the various depictions.

Sure, they all have bits and pieces. But because none of these 3 postures are capable of handling all of the scriptures, that is exactly WHY we ended up with 3 BLIND MICE postures.

[credit to whoever put these together previously]

· In Mark 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS.

· In Matthew 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING.

· In Revelation 16:15 He comes as a THIEF.

· In Matthew 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM.

· In Revelation 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR.

· In Malachi 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING.

· In Philippians 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER.

· In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE.

· In Malachi 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP.

· In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR.

· In Hosea 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN.

· In Revelation 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE.

· In Matthew 25:31-34 He comes as KING.

· In 1 Peter 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD.

· In Matthew 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS.

· In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS.

· In John 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS.

· In 2 Thessalonians 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS.

· In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT.

· In Revelation 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS.

· In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God.
These are only descriptive of how Jesus returns. It has nothing to do with when He returns. I wouldn't take any of those books for free if they were given to me now and have thrown out the ones I had bought years ago when I use to believe their money making lies.
 
Have you ever read a book by starting in the middle of it instead of reading the first paragraph? This is what you are doing without seeing you are doing it.
Right, because starting ten verses later is the same as starting in the middle. :rolleyes

All your points are valid for the scriptures you gave as what you have given is exactly what God has said to John, but given these revelations to John by Gods messenger which is the angel that showed John all Gods revelations while John was in the Spirit.
If my points are valid, and they are, then they prove you wrong. Is this why you address them specifically, one by one?
 
Here is the question you need to ask yourself, what does the words "after that" mean in vs. 7. It means after Jesus rose from the grave and was shown to over 500 people which would include Paul only seeing Jesus before He ascended up to the Father to sit at His right hand.

Paul did NOT see Jesus prior to the ascension. There is no disputing this one.

Ananias also refers to Saul seeing Jesus here:

Acts 9:
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Paul only saw a bright light and heard the voice of Jesus speaking through that light while on the road to Damascus, not Jesus, himself.

There is no disputing that Saul/Paul saw Jesus and this is confirmed both by Paul and by Ananias. How Ananias knew that we are not advised of specifically either, in the account, but Ananias did know it also.

Barnabas also makes the same statement:

Acts 9:
27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is not the mere appearance of a very bright flashlight. I'd dare say the appearance of Jesus with Saul/Paul is more akin to how John saw Jesus in Rev. 1 but Paul never elaborated on it, that's all. And I suspect there was no need for Paul to sensationalize it as it may have been a hindrance to his ministry. People would have thought he was nutz, beyond what they might have thought already. Acts 26:24
 
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Right, because starting ten verses later is the same as starting in the middle. :rolleyes


If my points are valid, and they are, then they prove you wrong. Is this why you address them specifically, one by one?
Free, I really do not know how to emphasize the angel giving John these visions any better than I have. God told Jesus everything that would come about in the end of days and Jesus sent the angle to John to make known to John by giving him visions while he was in the Spirit on the Lords day meaning the day God wanted John to know these revelations and to write them in a book to give to the seven churches (we the body of Christ). All of what John received by the angel was Gods spoken word. This is why we see God speaking in those points of scripture you gave fo all of scripture is Gods spoken word.
 
Paul did NOT see Jesus prior to the ascension. There is no disputing this one.

Ananias also refers to Saul seeing Jesus here:

Acts 9:
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.



There is no disputing that Saul/Paul saw Jesus and this is confirmed both by Paul and by Ananias. How Ananias knew that we are not advised of specifically either, in the account, but Ananias did know it also.

Barnabas also makes the same statement:

Acts 9:
27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is not the mere appearance of a very bright flashlight. I'd dare say the appearance of Jesus with Saul/Paul is more akin to how John saw Jesus in Rev. 1 but Paul never elaborated on it, that's all. And I suspect there was no need for Paul to sensationalize it as it may have been a hindrance to his ministry. People would have thought he was nutz, beyond what they might have thought already. Acts 26:24
I'm not going to debate this any longer as we are getting off topic, but if you would like to start a new thread on it I will be happy to reply further there. God bless you my brother in the Lord :hug
 
The answer would be no for if you have the anointing of the Holy Spirit you would know truth,
Please! Anyone can claim that. And every crackpot and fraud does claim that.

The Apostles were taught by God the Son in a yeshiva mode.
Their disciples were taught by experts.
Paul was taught by an expert. (Gamaliel)
Paul taught disciples in the school of Tyrannus. (Act 19:9)

Imagine a person needing surgery selecting a surgeon who has never been to medical school but has read Schwartz's Principles of Surgery every morning for the past 10 years and is led by the Holy Spirit.
Would you not think that person a fool for putting his life in such a self-declared "surgeon's" hands?
Yet you would place your eternal life in your own hands and despise the learning of those who have actually done the work necessary to rightly divide the word of truth.
That seems to me to be the foolishness and arrogance of which I see so much among far too many self-appointed but poorly educated, Bible experts.
Latin root word for religion is bondage,
:nonono
That's a pretty simplistic statement. A root word does not define the meaning of its derivative. A word is defined by its usage.
Digging a bit deeper than that is a very simple task to do so.

From Wikipedia:
The Latin term religiō, origin of the modern lexeme religion (via Old French/Middle Latin[2]) is of ultimately obscure etymology. It is recorded beginning in the 1st century BC, i.e. in Classical Latin at the beginning of the Roman Empire, notably by Cicero, in the sense of "scrupulous or strict observance of the traditional cultus".
Etymology
The classical explanation of the word, traced to Cicero himself, derives it from re- (again) + lego in the sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully". Modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligo "bind, connect", probably from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re- (again) + ligare or "to reconnect," which was made prominent by St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius.[3][4]


The problem with these etymologies, regardless of whether one favours lego or ligo, is that the now-familiar prefix re- "again" is not attested prior to its occurrence in religio and is itself in need of an etymological explanation.

From Wiktionary:
Noun
religiō f ‎(genitive religiōnis); third declension

  1. scrupulousness, conscientious exactness
  2. piety, religious scruple, religious awe, superstition, strict religious observance
  3. scruples, conscientiousness
  4. (of gods) sanctity
  5. an object of worship, holy thing, holy place
which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church.
:rolleyes
You have a problem with traditions?
In your Holy Spirit illuminated daily study of scripture for the past 40 years did you never notice that Paul PRESCRIBED keeping traditions?
1Co 11:2 (NKJV) Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
2Th 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

I hear that kind of nonsense all the time. What the speaker of that nonsense is unfailingly and totally unaware of is that his/her personal religious preference (which he/she has mistaken for the truly true faith) is invariably just another one of the many examples of the "doctrine of a mans church" and not, as imagined, the pure doctrine that Jesus taught. The claim to possess profound understanding of "the pure religion" is, of course, pure rubbish. And it is consistently based on a dismal ignorance of the origins of his/her beloved "truly true, pure religion".

So, once again, and with numbingly boring consistency, the arrogance of assuming that one's special anointing from the Holy Spirit gives one the ability to overcome their ignorance of Biblical languages, culture, modes of rhetoric, literary conventions, etc., combined with an overweening pride in one's ignorance, triumphs over actual scholarship and learning. yawn
 
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