Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Free]

Free, I really do not know how to emphasize the angel giving John these visions any better than I have. God told Jesus everything that would come about in the end of days and Jesus sent the angle to John to make known to John by giving him visions while he was in the Spirit on the Lords day meaning the day God wanted John to know these revelations and to write them in a book to give to the seven churches (we the body of Christ). All of what John received by the angel was Gods spoken word. This is why we see God speaking in those points of scripture you gave fo all of scripture is Gods spoken word.

You initially stated that "John never saw Jesus in Revelations," here: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-is-not-scriptural.64053/page-55#post-1213722

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Rev 1:11 saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. (ESV)

Very clearly then, this is Jesus, whom John clearly saw. This is not the angel that is mentioned in verse 1. It simply cannot be. If you would actually address my points one by one, this should become much more clear.

 

[Free]

There is the resurrection of His people, His servants, that will be judged when He returns.

This is not the resurrection of unbelievers, which takes place after the 1000 years are through.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31-32

These are His servants, who were either faithful or unfaithful.

This is the first resurrection as stated in Revelation 20:5.

The context of Matthew 25:31-32 is that of His servants, as He is the Sheppard of both the sheep and the goats.

He starts the context, back in Matthew 24:45, about "His servants" and the judgement He will judge them by when He returns.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


Chapter 25 -

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country,who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done,good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you havewhat is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:14-34


Again, the context of Matthew 25:31-32 is about His servants, of whom some will inherit the kingdom of God, which is to say... enter in to the joy of the Lord.

Whereas His servants, who did not inherit the kingdom of God, will be assigned with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth... which is being sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell with the devil and his angels.


The unbelievers, and the lawless, the tares, who were never His, will be gathered up by the angels and thrown into the fire.


Judgement begins in the house of God.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5


JLB

With your interpretation of Matt. 25 you are promoting salvation by works, do you realize that? Let's look at the final, general resurrection and judgement:

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

Notice the "if". The implication is that if anyone's name was found written in the book of life, he would not be thrown into the lake of fire. If all these people get thrown into the lake of fire, then verse 15 makes no sense.

Mat 13:24 He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,
Mat 13:25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away.
Mat 13:26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.
Mat 13:27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?'
Mat 13:28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?'
Mat 13:29 But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

Mat 13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (ESV)

Harvest happens at the same time for both the weeds and the wheat.

 

[for_his_glory]

Please! Anyone can claim that. And every crackpot and fraud does claim that.

The Apostles were taught by God the Son in a yeshiva mode.
Their disciples were taught by experts.
Paul was taught by an expert. (Gamaliel)
Paul taught disciples in the school of Tyrannus. (Act 19:9)

Imagine a person needing surgery selecting a surgeon who has never been to medical school but has read Schwartz's Principles of Surgery every morning for the past 10 years and is led by the Holy Spirit.
Would you not think that person a fool for putting his life in such a self-declared "surgeon's" hands?
Yet you would place your eternal life in your own hands and despise the learning of those who have actually done the work necessary to rightly divide the word of truth.
That seems to me to be the foolishness and arrogance of which I see so much among far too many self-appointed but poorly educated, Bible experts.


That's a pretty simplistic statement. A root word does not define the meaning of its derivative. A word is defined by its usage.
Digging a bit deeper than that is a very simple task to do so.

From Wikipedia:
The Latin term religiō, origin of the modern lexeme religion (via Old French/Middle Latin[2]) is of ultimately obscure etymology. It is recorded beginning in the 1st century BC, i.e. in Classical Latin at the beginning of the Roman Empire, notably by Cicero, in the sense of "scrupulous or strict observance of the traditional cultus".
Etymology
The classical explanation of the word, traced to Cicero himself, derives it from re- (again) + lego in the sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully". Modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligo "bind, connect", probably from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re- (again) + ligare or "to reconnect," which was made prominent by St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius.[3][4]


The problem with these etymologies, regardless of whether one favours lego or ligo, is that the now-familiar prefix re- "again" is not attested prior to its occurrence in religio and is itself in need of an etymological explanation.

From Wiktionary:
Noun
religiō f ‎(genitive religiōnis); third declension

1. scrupulousness, conscientious exactness
2. piety, religious scruple, religious awe, superstition, strict religious observance
3. scruples, conscientiousness
4. (of gods) sanctity
5. an object of worship, holy thing, holy place

You have a problem with traditions?
In your Holy Spirit illuminated daily study of scripture for the past 40 years did you never notice that Paul PRESCRIBED keeping traditions?
1Co 11:2 (NKJV) Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
2Th 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

I hear that kind of nonsense all the time. What the speaker of that nonsense is unfailingly and totally unaware of is that his/her personal religious preference (which he/she has mistaken for the truly true faith) is invariably just another one of the many examples of the "doctrine of a mans church" and not, as imagined, the pure doctrine that Jesus taught. The claim to possess profound understanding of "the pure religion" is, of course, pure rubbish. And it is consistently based on a dismal ignorance of the origins of his/her beloved "truly true, pure religion".

So, once again, and with numbingly boring consistency, the arrogance of assuming that one's special anointing from the Holy Spirit gives one the ability to overcome their ignorance of Biblical languages, culture, modes of rhetoric, literary conventions, etc., combined with an overweening pride in one's ignorance, triumphs over actual scholarship and learning. yawn

If this is such a yawn why do you keep coming back here.

Many do claim they hear from the Holy Spirit as they call themselves a Christian, but only give lip service to the Lord, Matthew 7:21-23.

I thought the Apostles, excluding Paul as he was not a disciple of the 12, were taught by Jesus as He breathed the Holy Spirit on them and they were indwelled with all truth as their understanding increased. Who is God the son?

One can not learn from a book unless they apply and practice that which is taught within it. I thought each one of us were to rightly divide the word of God for our self, 2Timothy 2:15.

Yes I do have a problem with traditional teachings as I have seen to many churches that dictate what a Pastor can teach and the higher counsel even write the sermons for them to speak from the pulpit. Many go as far as never allowing any teaching of the Holy Spirit. I know this for fact from a church I use to attend.

Traditions (NKJV) are different then ordinances (KJV) as traditions are those things handed down by man and ordinances are and have always been established firm by God in keeping His commands, not the commands of the church.

Jim, you are free as I am to believe what we want, but it will never be a wait until the end we will see whose Church taught truth scenario, for it will be to late in the end.

FYI, I haven't attended Church in over 10 years and would rather sit and read my Bible for what it says than to believe half the things that come out of many pulpits where Jezebel is allowed to speak.

This is my religion: James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

[for_his_glory]

You initially stated that "John never saw Jesus in Revelations," here: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-is-not-scriptural.64053/page-55#post-1213722

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Rev 1:11 saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. (ESV)

Very clearly then, this is Jesus, whom John clearly saw. This is not the angel that is mentioned in verse 1. It simply cannot be. If you would actually address my points one by one, this should become much more clear.

Why do you seem to intentionally leave out vs.1-9 that explains very clearly everything I have said. John heard a loud voice like a trumpet while he was in the Spirit. How do you derive this voice as John seeing Jesus as he only heard a loud voice. This would also be the same as Paul who on the road to Damascus saw a bright light and fell to the ground and heard a voice speak out from that bright light, Acts 9:1-9. We can only assume Paul heard Jesus speaking by what was said to him, but still never face to face with Him. Even when at times I was in the Spirit and saw a bright light and a voice coming out from it I never saw anyone's face, but only heard a voice speaking to me and I'm sure many can testify of the same thing.

 

[Jim Parker]

If this is such a yawn why do you keep coming back here.

Hope springs eternal.

I thought the Apostles, excluding Paul as he was not a disciple of the 12, were taught by Jesus as He breathed the Holy Spirit on them and they were indwelled with all truth as their understanding increased.

You didn't notice that they spent 3+ years following Him around and being taught by Him?

Who is God the son?

Jesus. The Word (Logos) made flesh. "God the Son" = "The Son of God."

I thought each one of us were to rightly divide the word of God for our self, 2Timothy 2:15.

Paul was talking to Timothy whom he had personally discipled.
If everyone were able to do that there wouldn't be tens of thousands of denominations with widely varying doctrines.
If everyone "rightly divided the of truth" there would only be one.

FYI, I haven't attended Church in over 10 years and would rather sit and read my Bible for what it says than to believe half the things that come out of many pulpits where Jezebel is allowed to speak.

Of course you haven't.
While you were home reading your Bible and avoiding Jezebel, did you ever come across the following?
Heb 10:24-25 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
It doesn't say, "unless you don't like the preaching, then you can stay home."

This is my religion: James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

That's good.
But it isn't everything.
If you're not a part of a church body then you're not a part of the body of Christ. There are no "lone rangers" in the Kingdom of God. You don't get to take Communion at home because the word "Communion" includes the concept of community.
Please consider Jesus words.
John 6:48-51, 53-68
“I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

"Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

You have chosen not to participate even though Jesus said you need to participate in order to have eternal life.
You decided not to do what Jesus said because you don't like the way some "Jezebel" preachers preach.
Here's another saying of Jesus you might consider: But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say? (Luke 6:46 NKJV)

You have separated yourself from the Body of Christ because you have decided you are a judge of others whom you have condemned as "Jezebels."
Jesus spoke to that behavior as well. (NKJV)
Mat 7:1-2 Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned.

JTLYK: you won't find an acceptable preacher or church until you find the humility to admit that you may not know more than they know.
It sounds like someone really angered you so you left and never went back. That's a bit like taking poison and hoping the other person will die.
Good luck with that.

 

[JLB]

With your interpretation of Matt. 25 you are promoting salvation by works, do you realize that? Let's look at the final, general resurrection and judgement:

How is quoting the words of Jesus Christ, "promoting" salvation by works?

Please post the words that I said, that leads you to believe this?

Notice the "if". The implication is that if anyone's name was found written in the book of life, he would not be thrown into the lake of fire. If all these people get thrown into the lake of fire, then verse 15 makes no sense.

Who said "all these people" get thrown into the lake of fire.

I said the the resurrection of the unbelievers is 1000 after the first resurrection, based on this verse in Revelation 20:5

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5


This first resurrection is at the coming of the Lord, that was just described a few verse's prior, in Revelation 19:11-21

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head weremany crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has onHis robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people,free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:11-21


JLB

 

[Free]

Why do you seem to intentionally leave out vs.1-9 that explains very clearly everything I have said.

I have left nothing out.

John heard a loud voice like a trumpet while he was in the Spirit. How do you derive this voice as John seeing Jesus as he only heard a loud voice.

This is an incredible statement. I cannot see how anyone can make this statement and then claim to have actually read Rev. 1.

I even highlighted the relevant bits for you so that it would be clear. In verse 10 John hears a voice behind him. In verse 12 we very clearly read that he "turned to see the voice that was speaking to [him]". Do you understand that? He turned to look at who was speaking to him. He then proceeds to describe "one like a son of man," and describes his clothes, his hair, his eyes, and his feet. I showed some of this in those ten points that you refuse to address on a point-by-point basis.

The one John describes, the very one who was speaking to him since verse 11, then claims to be "the first and the last...the living one," who died and now is "alive forevermore." And that's just the rest of chapter 1. In chapter 2 this same speaker claims to be the one "who searches mind and hear," claims to be "the Son of God," and calls God his Father.

Again, these and other statements are all part of the ten points I have previously given that you refuse to address properly.

This would also be the same as Paul who on the road to Damascus saw a bright light and fell to the ground and heard a voice speak out from that bright light, Acts 9:1-9. We can only assume Paul heard Jesus speaking by what was said to him, but still never face to face with Him.

No, it would not at all be the same. Paul was travelling along the road, a light appeared, and he heard a voice. This was something happening to him physically; he was not in the Spirit. John was in the Spirit, being given a vision, when he heard a voice, turned around to see who was speaking, and there saw "one like a son of man".

Even when at times I was in the Spirit and saw a bright light and a voice coming out from it I never saw anyone's face, but only heard a voice speaking to me and I'm sure many can testify of the same thing.

That's great but that neither describes what happened to Paul nor what happened to John.

 

[JLB]

Harvest happens at the same time for both the weeds and the wheat.

Yes the Harvest does happen at the same time for the tares and the wheat.

The tares were never His, and were sons of the wicked one, who were gathered up by the angels to be burned.


JLB

 

[Free]

How is quoting the words of Jesus Christ, "promoting" salvation by works?

I quite clearly said: "With your interpretation of Matt. 25." Quoting Scripture is one thing, but it is quite another to interpret and understand what is being stated.

Please post the words that I said, that leads you to believe this?

Maybe I have misunderstood your emphasis on the context of Matt. 25 as being all about his servants. I was taking it to mean "believers." But that clearly isn't the case, so I don't understand your emphasis on the context being servants.

Who said "all these people" get thrown into the lake of fire.

I said the the resurrection of the unbelievers is 1000 after the first resurrection, based on this verse in Revelation 20:5

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5

This is what your position leads to. If the second resurrection (Rev. 20:12-15) is only about unbelievers, then they all will get thrown into the lake of fire. But the wording strongly suggests that it is both believers and unbelievers that are raised in the second resurrection. Hence why it is called by many, the general resurrection.

This first resurrection is at the coming of the Lord, that was just described a few verse's prior, in Revelation 19:11-21

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:11-21

I don't see anything about a resurrection there; it's not mentioned at all.

 

[Jim Parker]

How do you derive this voice as John seeing Jesus as he only heard a loud voice.

By continuing to read:
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Rev 1:11 saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. (ESV)

 

[Douglas Summers]

There is no one above their master which is Christ Jesus who has given us the earnest of His Spirit that teaches us all truths to those who have Spiritual ears to hear what is being taught them. This is why we can do nothing of ourselves as it is no longer "I" that lives, but Christ who lives in me and works through me. Many do try to serve two masters, but will only be brought down as there is no fence riding when it comes to our relationship with Christ.

Show me where I have ever been rude or insulted anyone or have called them a liar ect. ect. Would that truly bring any glory to God, no, but shame on myself. Do I claim to have all truth, no, am I perfect, far from it, but can only give what I have studied apart from what man has ever taught me. These forums are to be that of discussions and sharing the word of God with each other, not a battlefield of Christian vs. Christian. Will we always agree with each other, no, as we can only give what we feel is truth and then let others either ask why we believe the way we do or reply with what they either disagree on as we can discuss the indifference, but can never force what we believe on others.

Thanks for your reply glory, I'm not sure you understood my post. It was not about you or me. It was about a unified body in Christ as against the mixed multitude of self willed individuals, all with different claims of being taught by God himself.

 

[Jim Parker]

With your interpretation of Matt. 25 you are promoting salvation by works, do you realize that? Let's look at the final, general resurrection and judgement:

To everyone in general; Instead of considering our personal interpretations of highly subjective ecstatic apocalyptic visions, how about let's look at some very clear, precise, words of Jesus?

John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and
those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul taught the same thing.

Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
(the word "deeds" means "works")
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but
to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,
of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but
glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

So why would anyone calling himself a Christian have a problem with doing good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

It's absolutely true that no one can "earn" their salvation by doing good works.
Everyone who gets salvation gets it because God freely gives salvation.

But, it's not about "earning vs. believing".
It's about believing and obeying the Lord, God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
It's about obeying the Lord Jesus who asked His followers:
"why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 NKJV)
Salvation by works (non Biblical concept) is not the same as "Obeying Christ" (totally Biblical concept) by doing the good works He commanded. (Like Love your neighbor, bless don't curse, forgive, etc.)

The devil uses this "straw man" logical fallacy to confuse people in to thinking that "obedience to God" is identical to "salvation by works." The two are entirely different.
Trying to be saved by works is focused on what I want. (Avoid hell, have a nice mansion in heaven - self-centered)
Trying to obey God is focused on what God wants. (God-centered)

NOBODY gets salvation who won't do God's will.
And God's will for every believer is:
“Let your light so shine before men,
that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." (Mat 5:16 NKJV)
That "light" that "so shines" is your good works.

It is bewildering to me that this is this not obvious to everyone.

Is it because we have so many preachers pounding the lie into so many believers' heads that Christians aren't supposed to be doing good works?

The popular teaching that we can receive salvation without doing the good works we were given by God to do is a lie.
If you're preacher is preaching that lie, find a preacher who isn't a liar.

There is no such thing as faith without faithfulness.
If you are one of Christ's then you need to act like it; DO the things that please God.
We make our faith complete by DOING the things God has created us to do.

Otherwise, we can look forward with great dread to hear Jesus say to us, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me." (Mat 25:41-43)

I can't imagine how Jesus could have made it any clearer.
Jesus said He will separate the saved from the damned based only on what they did or did not do.

If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with Jesus, not with me.
Jesus said it, not me.
I'm just a messenger. (an AN-gel )

iakov the fool

 

[for_his_glory]

I have left nothing out.


This is an incredible statement. I cannot see how anyone can make this statement and then claim to have actually read Rev. 1.

I even highlighted the relevant bits for you so that it would be clear. In verse 10 John hears a voice behind him. In verse 12 we very clearly read that he "turned to see the voice that was speaking to [him]". Do you understand that? He turned to look at who was speaking to him. He then proceeds to describe "one like a son of man," and describes his clothes, his hair, his eyes, and his feet. I showed some of this in those ten points that you refuse to address on a point-by-point basis.

The one John describes, the very one who was speaking to him since verse 11, then claims to be "the first and the last...the living one," who died and now is "alive forevermore." And that's just the rest of chapter 1. In chapter 2 this same speaker claims to be the one "who searches mind and hear," claims to be "the Son of God," and calls God his Father.

Again, these and other statements are all part of the ten points I have previously given that you refuse to address properly.


No, it would not at all be the same. Paul was travelling along the road, a light appeared, and he heard a voice. This was something happening to him physically; he was not in the Spirit. John was in the Spirit, being given a vision, when he heard a voice, turned around to see who was speaking, and there saw "one like a son of man".


That's great but that neither describes what happened to Paul nor what happened to John.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Notice in verse 12 one like the Son of man. Angels are not Sons of man, as only Jesus is referenced throughout scripture as the Son of man. In this verse the angel is likened unto the Son of man who (Jesus) as like Jesus angels receive their power and authority from God to speak in His behalf using the very words of God. Jesus sent this angel to John in all power and authority to show John these revelations in visions while he was in the Spirit. Everything from vs. 1-19 is the angel acting on the power and authority from God to reveal these descriptive visions. The voice saying I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last was the angel proclaiming to John who it was that had the power and authority to show John those things to write in a book.

There are four factors that show this is an angel and not Jesus talking to John.
1. vs. 8 "saith the Lord" which the angel is repeating what Jesus said to him to tell John
2. vs.10 "heard behind me a great voice" meaning the great power and authority given to the angel to speak Gods words
3. vs.12 "turned to see the voice" only saw seven candle sticks which are the seven churches with each one having an angel over them
4. vs. 13 "one likened unto the Son of God" emphasis on likened as the angel was likened unto Jesus who gave the angel power and authority to speak God's words exactly like God spoke.

From vs. 13-16 John describes what this angel looks like. Vs.17-20 the angel lays his hand on John speaking the words of Jesus

Read Rev 1:1-20 without the verse numbers and punctuation as it was written as a letter to the seven Churches in Asia where John was living at that time. It makes a hugh difference, at least to me it does.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto him to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John Who bare record of the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written therein for the time is at hand.

John to the seven churches which are in Asia Grace be unto you and peace from him which is and which was and which is to come and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne And from Jesus Christ who is the faithful witness and the first begotten of the dead and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Behold he cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him and they also which pierced him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so Amen. I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending saith the Lord which is and which was and which is to come the Almighty.

I John who also am your brother and companion in tribulation and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ was in the isle that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet Saying I am Alpha and Omega the first and the last and What thou seest write in a book and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia unto Ephesus and unto Smyrna and unto Pergamos and unto Thyatira and unto Sardis and unto Philadelphia and unto Laodicea.

And I turned to see the voice that spake with me And being turned I saw seven golden candlesticks And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man clothed with a garment down to the foot and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool as white as snow and his eyes were as a flame of fire And his feet like unto fine brass as if they burned in a furnace and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hope springs eternal.

You didn't notice that they spent 3+ years following Him around and being taught by Him?

Jesus. The Word (Logos) made flesh. "God the Son" = "The Son of God."

Paul was talking to Timothy whom he had personally discipled.
If everyone were able to do that there wouldn't be tens of thousands of denominations with widely varying doctrines.
If everyone "rightly divided the of truth" there would only be one.

Of course you haven't.
While you were home reading your Bible and avoiding Jezebel, did you ever come across the following?
Heb 10:24-25 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
It doesn't say, "unless you don't like the preaching, then you can stay home."

That's good.
But it isn't everything.
If you're not a part of a church body then you're not a part of the body of Christ. There are no "lone rangers" in the Kingdom of God. You don't get to take Communion at home because the word "Communion" includes the concept of community.
Please consider Jesus words.
John 6:48-51, 53-68
“I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

"Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

You have chosen not to participate even though Jesus said you need to participate in order to have eternal life.
You decided not to do what Jesus said because you don't like the way some "Jezebel" preachers preach.
Here's another saying of Jesus you might consider: But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say? (Luke 6:46 NKJV)

You have separated yourself from the Body of Christ because you have decided you are a judge of others whom you have condemned as "Jezebels."
Jesus spoke to that behavior as well. (NKJV)
Mat 7:1-2 Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned.

JTLYK: you won't find an acceptable preacher or church until you find the humility to admit that you may not know more than they know.
It sounds like someone really angered you so you left and never went back. That's a bit like taking poison and hoping the other person will die.
Good luck with that.

This is all I need to reply to. I have not forsaken the assembling as the body of Christ is not four walls, but every person from the four corners of the earth that have been Spiritually born again and baptized into Christ making Him the head of the body. Does not the body gather here in these forums? Are we not taught by others that have a greater knowledge? I have probably learned more by others in this forum then I will ever learn in a four walled church. My humility and humbleness is before the Lord, not man as He has taught me how to love others and care for their needs which is what pure religion is spoken by James in James 1:27. I judge no man nor condemn anyone for that is only God who judges and condemns as He is the only one who can see into our hearts. I never left any church in anger, but only left the last one because it was unfortunately forced to close its doors as the Pastor was paying all the bills to keep it opened because the congregation were not very giving in their offerings and it caused the Pastor and his family not to be able to pay their own bills at home. So judge not lest you be judged, Matthew 7:1-3.

 

[n2thelight]

No, the angel gave these revelations to John by what God showed Jesus, what Jesus showed the angel and what the angel showed John

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Who is the Alpha and the Omega?

 

[for_his_glory]

Who is the Alpha and the Omega?

Please read m post #1193 as it explains how it was an angel that spoke to John

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks for your reply glory, I'm not sure you understood my post. It was not about you or me. It was about a unified body in Christ as against the mixed multitude of self willed individuals, all with different claims of being taught by God himself.

OK, but it is only the Holy Spirit that can teach us, John 14:26, There are many anointed teachers out their, but apart from the Holy Spirit those who are not anointed to teach will fall prey to the lies of Satan. We always need to safeguard ourselves and read the word and study it ourselves so we know what we are taught is truth or error, 1John 4:1-6.

 

[JLB]

Maybe I have misunderstood your emphasis on the context of Matt. 25 as being all about his servants.

No you didn't misunderstand my emphasis, and if that is what you are referring to, then let's discuss.

Probably one of the biggest misunderstandings the modern Church has today, especially in America, is what the word "believe" meant by Jesus and the apostles, as well as what faith is, and how faith works, which I hope to discuss with you.

Can you start with addressing what I have already stated about His "servants" being the context of His teaching in the Olivet Discourse, starting at Matthew 24:45 about "His servants" and the judgement He will judge them by when He returns.



45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


Chapter 25 -

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country,who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done,good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:14-34


The context of the Lord's Discourse is about His servants that will be judged when He returns.

Both the sheep and goats and His sheep and goats, which is to say His servants, some of which were obedient and some of which were disobedient, just like all the examples Jesus gave in the preceding teachings, starting back in Matthew 24:45.

Please examine the language that is exchanged between the goats and Jesus:

“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:44-46

• The goats knew Him to be Lord.

• Jesus expected them to serve Him, by serving His people.

...inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.


Judgement begins in the House of God.


Please share with me why you think that the sheep and goats are not His servants.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Please! Anyone can claim that. And every crackpot and fraud does claim that.

The Apostles were taught by God the Son in a yeshiva mode.
Their disciples were taught by experts.
Paul was taught by an expert. (Gamaliel)
Paul taught disciples in the school of Tyrannus. (Act 19:9)

Imagine a person needing surgery selecting a surgeon who has never been to medical school but has read Schwartz's Principles of Surgery every morning for the past 10 years and is led by the Holy Spirit.
Would you not think that person a fool for putting his life in such a self-declared "surgeon's" hands?
Yet you would place your eternal life in your own hands and despise the learning of those who have actually done the work necessary to rightly divide the word of truth.
That seems to me to be the foolishness and arrogance of which I see so much among far too many self-appointed but poorly educated, Bible experts.


That's a pretty simplistic statement. A root word does not define the meaning of its derivative. A word is defined by its usage.
Digging a bit deeper than that is a very simple task to do so.

From Wikipedia:
The Latin term religiō, origin of the modern lexeme religion (via Old French/Middle Latin[2]) is of ultimately obscure etymology. It is recorded beginning in the 1st century BC, i.e. in Classical Latin at the beginning of the Roman Empire, notably by Cicero, in the sense of "scrupulous or strict observance of the traditional cultus".
Etymology
The classical explanation of the word, traced to Cicero himself, derives it from re- (again) + lego in the sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully". Modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligo "bind, connect", probably from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re- (again) + ligare or "to reconnect," which was made prominent by St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius.[3][4]


The problem with these etymologies, regardless of whether one favours lego or ligo, is that the now-familiar prefix re- "again" is not attested prior to its occurrence in religio and is itself in need of an etymological explanation.

From Wiktionary:
Noun
religiō f ‎(genitive religiōnis); third declension

1. scrupulousness, conscientious exactness
2. piety, religious scruple, religious awe, superstition, strict religious observance
3. scruples, conscientiousness
4. (of gods) sanctity
5. an object of worship, holy thing, holy place

You have a problem with traditions?
In your Holy Spirit illuminated daily study of scripture for the past 40 years did you never notice that Paul PRESCRIBED keeping traditions?
1Co 11:2 (NKJV) Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
2Th 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

I hear that kind of nonsense all the time. What the speaker of that nonsense is unfailingly and totally unaware of is that his/her personal religious preference (which he/she has mistaken for the truly true faith) is invariably just another one of the many examples of the "doctrine of a mans church" and not, as imagined, the pure doctrine that Jesus taught. The claim to possess profound understanding of "the pure religion" is, of course, pure rubbish. And it is consistently based on a dismal ignorance of the origins of his/her beloved "truly true, pure religion".

So, once again, and with numbingly boring consistency, the arrogance of assuming that one's special anointing from the Holy Spirit gives one the ability to overcome their ignorance of Biblical languages, culture, modes of rhetoric, literary conventions, etc., combined with an overweening pride in one's ignorance, triumphs over actual scholarship and learning. yawn

All orthodox party line drivel above.

Believers are entirely encouraged to study and divide the scriptures themselves, and not just take another person's word no matter how educated or founded that person may be.

Acts 17:11, 2 Tim. 2:15, Eph. 6:17, Gal. 1:6-7 and many many more.

You are actually encouraging positions that are against the above scriptural mandates, which is also why a lot of people reject orthodoxy on this matter.

Officially one camp of orthodoxy, your camp, believes the HARLOT of Revelation, is the ROMAN EMPIRE. And that position a lot of learned eschatology finds nonsensical on legitimate scriptural critique. Primarily because they (your camp of orthodoxy) have locked that position in on the basis of historical analysis ONLY which is not the only method of understanding. Which methodology faults a LOT of what orthodoxy represents across the board.

 

[smaller]

I'm not going to debate this any longer as we are getting off topic, but if you would like to start a new thread on it I will be happy to reply further there. God bless you my brother in the Lord

It is entirely on topic. This observation started in Revelation 1 and extended to the same fault you presented from there to Paul's seeing Jesus, confirmed by scriptures numerous times/ways. But it did unveil a deeper basic fault in sight on your end.

Most people have these faults, no matter how sincere they are or how hard they study. These are what keep us all, any of us, no matter how educated or sincere we are from seeing everything as we should from the scriptures. Paul also acknowledged this principle for himself, knowing that he only saw in part and as though a glass darkly. I acknowledged this principle as a hard line fact for myself long long ago and it is precisely this fact that keeps me from accepting the pre-trib (or mid-post) trib positions because exactly NONE of those positions prove to be capable of satisfactorily harmonizing the body of scriptures on the matters and this is just a fact. And anyone who has studied ALL of them knows this to be a fact.

And likewise anyone who puts on the pre-trib shoes and doesn't intimately KNOW what the scriptural faults of the position really are has no business claiming much of anything.

They just show themselves unlearned. I'd say the majority of the adherents buy these positions from somebody else to begin with. The only way to confirm any position is to study the SCRIPTURAL COUNTER PROPOSALS from the alternative camps and what they will find in a hurry is that the COUNTER PROPOSALS are, in many cases quite solid.

And this means that pre-trib doesn't and can not compute across the board and is incapable of providing scriptural harmony. And it isn't. This is just a fact.

Once any person knows this and persists in keeping the position shows again they are either divisive or unlearned.

Having studied these matters for a lifetime I honestly don't have a solid position on end times because of it's complexities. But I do have & see a lot of scriptural BOMBS for the standard sets of eschatology that blow them out of the water and on that basis I know that the pre-mid and post trib positions can not even remotely possibly be (entirely) TRUE. All the positions are what I call BITS AND PIECES true which means partly true partly NOT true whatsoever.

All I'm ever interested in these matters is truth. That's my only agenda.