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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

JLB said:
Brother,

How does John being invited up to heaven to be shown the things which must take place after this, have anything to do with the tribulation or rapture? :shrug

The Resurrection and Rapture occur at His coming.

His coming is after the tribulation.

The Resurrection/Rapture are one event whereby the Resurrected ones are raised from the dead, then just after that those who are alive and remain are caught up together with them... All those who are Christ's will be gathered together.

JLB
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I can just give my thoughts, and that is that there is more than one trump (1 Cor 15:52), and that John is shown different Saints in heaven at different times. Even in Rev 12:1 we see a great wonder woman, and she brings forth a man child in Rev 12:5 that is caught up (Raptured) unto God.
 
Cygnus said:
You still need to get past the horse or no horse issue.

Is Rev 14 about the rapture? I don't think so. It seems to be more about the judgement..gathering of nations, last call.
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Okay, so let's see...
Jesus comes back on a white horse, Revelation 19....
And we meet Jesus in the air in the clouds.
And Jesus is in the clouds in Revelation 14.
So, Revelation 14 and 19 is the day of the Lord but 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the day of the Lord, even though two sentences later Jesus talks about the day of the Lord.
But of course, they're not related, otherwise you have nothing.

Okay, let's say you're right just for the sake of argument.
No verse stands alone in a debate like this, so what else you got?
 
My my
My head is spinning, lol.
Can not anyone else see that the 7 seals are the 7 trumps, that pours out the 7 vials?
I believe this is what causes all the confusion.
In Rev.1:6,7 He made us kings and priest,
Then some say, the rapture is in 3 chapters later, Rev.4:1,2
Rev.20:6, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ..
Rev.1:7
He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him.

Whom will Satan deceive if this is the pretrib.rapture?
Matt.24:29-31
After the tribulation
See the Son of man coming in the clouds...
Sound of a trumpet, gather His Elect....

In Rev.14:4
The 144,000 is the first fruits
For heaven sakes they surely went through the great tribulation.
You would think for sure, they will take part of the marriage.

No offense to anyone, but He is coming back, one more time, the second coming, simply...
His feet touching Mt. Olive...
No one left behind.....
Maybe some left out of the Temple, doors are shut, until one day or thousand years,
Then the full God head comes down, live 4ever or perish...
:twocents
:twocents
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Okay, so let's see...
Jesus comes back on a white horse, Revelation 19....
And we meet Jesus in the air in the clouds.
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That is what some would have believe. But just as an elevator can't go up and down AT THE SAME TIME, the saints don't go up and down at the time. That would be absurd. At the Rapture they go UP and at the Second Coming they come DOWN with Christ (Rev 19).
And Jesus is in the clouds in Revelation 14.
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Another assumption. The angel mentioned there is assumed to be Jesus, but since Jesus is God, He CANNOT be an angel (after His exaltation).
So, Revelation 14 and 19 is the day of the Lord but 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the day of the Lord, even though two sentences later Jesus talks about the day of the Lord.
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No 1 Thess 4:13-18 has nothing whatsoever in common with the Day of the Lord -- a period of wrath and judgement.
 
dianegcook said:
Can not anyone else see that the 7 seals are the 7 trumps, that pours out the 7 vials?
Click to expand...
Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. Here's the sequence:

Seven Seals
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (Seals Opened)

Seveth Seal
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Trumpets

Seventh Trumpet
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Vials
 
Malachi said:
That is what some would have believe. But just as an elevator can't go up and down AT THE SAME TIME, the saints don't go up and down at the time. That would be absurd. At the Rapture they go UP and at the Second Coming they come DOWN with Christ (Rev 19).

Another assumption. The angel mentioned there is assumed to be Jesus, but since Jesus is God, He CANNOT be an angel (after His exaltation).

No 1 Thess 4:13-18 has nothing whatsoever in common with the Day of the Lord -- a period of wrath and judgement.
Click to expand...

This conversation is really over.
Revelation 14 speaks of "like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head"...
This is Christ the king, the glorified Christ.
Everybody knows that.

And saying the day of the Lord has nothing to do with the rapture is the myth of your mind because it really does point to the end of the tribulation and not the beginning.
 
Malachi said:
There are several questions here, but that's OK

Because (1) God knows who did not reject the Gospel and reject Christ before the Rapture and (2) He is ever merciful.

The two witnesses will be seen worldwide and so will the angel who has the everlasting Gospel.

Why not? There was only one witness at the time of Noah, and that was Noah.

Using the communication technology which surrounds us.

God's wrath will be against unbelief and ungodliness, as well as against the worldwide idolatry perpetrated by the Antichrist.

Before the New Heavens and the New Earth come into existence, God must deal with His enemies and cleanse the earth from all those who oppose Him and reject Christ. The ultimate objective is to establish the universal Kingdom of God on earth.

The mark of the Beast seals individuals for Hell. It is for those (a) who believed not the truth when they heard it and (2) who were placed under strong delusion in order to believe the lies of Satan. What we seem to forget is that the Gospel is being preached throughout the world (and must be before the Second Coming of Christ). Many are being saved, but many more are scoffing, or rejecting Christ, or going after false gods. Those who desire false gods will receive them. Muslims as well as Hindus and others have become more and more radicalized. Many Jews continue to reject Jesus. Atheists and sexual perverts have become more vocal, and promote their agendas more strongly than before. Gnosticism has been revived, as has witchcraft and occultism in the West. And one could add many more developments to this list. All of these factors are leading to the reign of the Antichrist.
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I don't know how to box the quotes so I numbered my questions and put You and Me where each of us replied.

1. If we are taken out of here before the great tribulation then why would God give anyone else a chance to repent?

You: Because (1) God knows who did not reject the Gospel and reject Christ before the Rapture and (2) He is ever merciful.

Me: That did not answer the question. When we are taken up the dead in Christ rise from their grave first and join those who are still alive then we are taken up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air and we will be with the Lord forever. 1Thessalonians 4:17 never says we will be with the Lord in Heaven, but only in the air as we come back with Him as part of His army in Rev 19 as we are the ones who are clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

2.How would they hear if the gospel was no longer preached in the world.

You:The two witnesses will be seen worldwide and so will the angel who has the everlasting Gospel.

Me: How can only two witness be seen worldwide as that would be impossible. Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit, Joel 2:28-32; Acts 2:17-21. According to those scriptures I gave here the Church is still here at that time as we are the witnesses Rev Chapter 11 speaks about.

3. Do you really think God would take us up, but to only leave two witnesses behind?

You: Why not? There was only one witness at the time of Noah, and that was Noah.

Me: Did God take Noah up to be with Him in Heaven at the time of the flood, no, as it repented God that he made man for their hearts turned evil, but found favor in Noah only, Genesis 6:6. so it only comes to figure Noah would be a witness until the time of his death.

4. How are only two witnesses going to preach to all the nations in the world?

You: Using the communication technology which surrounds us.

Me: Many remote places around the world have no technology so that's not going to work out.


5. If we are taken up before the tribulation then what would be the whole purpose of seven years of Gods wrath?

You: God's wrath will be against unbelief and ungodliness, as well as against the worldwide idolatry perpetrated by the Antichrist.

Me: We all know what Gods wrath is all about and do you really think it would take God seven years to rid the world of all its evil. All God has to do is speak it all to be gone and it would be finished.

6. Would God not just end everything at that time?

You: Before the New Heavens and the New Earth come into existence, God must deal with His enemies and cleanse the earth from all those who oppose Him and reject Christ. The ultimate objective is to establish the universal Kingdom of God on earth.

Me: And you think it will really take God seven years or better to do all that since we are no longer suppose to be here.

7. What about the mark of the beast? What purpose would that be if we are all gone? Just some things to think about.

You: The mark of the Beast seals individuals for Hell. It is for those (a) who believed not the truth when they heard it and (2) who were placed under strong delusion in order to believe the lies of Satan. What we seem to forget is that the Gospel is being preached throughout the world (and must be before the Second Coming of Christ). Many are being saved, but many more are scoffing, or rejecting Christ, or going after false gods. Those who desire false gods will receive them. Muslims as well as Hindus and others have become more and more radicalized. Many Jews continue to reject Jesus. Atheists and sexual perverts have become more vocal, and promote their agendas more strongly than before. Gnosticism has been revived, as has witchcraft and occultism in the West. And one could add many more developments to this list. All of these factors are leading to the reign of the Antichrist.

Me: Those who have rejected the witness of Christ are already condemned if they refuse to repent, John 3:18, so they would not need a mark from the beast to show that as they live their life by that of following after the beast. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. The Gospel of the kingdom is preached throughout the world by those who have been anointed to preach it as we are still here on earth and only God knows the last one that will repent and then the end comes. The end does not come until Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives and brings His army who have now been caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air and come back with Him, Rev 19, to fight the final battle as the beast and false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire at that time. There is no one Antichrist for scripture say there are many, 1John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2John 1:7. No where in scripture does it speak about just one Antichrist, but says spirit of antichrist in the particular of those who reject Jesus.
 
Malachi said:
Brother Eugene,
On the face of it this verse seems to say that the entire Church went through ("came out of") the Great Tribulation.

But the other option is to interpret it as escaped out of ("came out of") the Great Tribulation. There are at least four reasons why this would be more consistent with the Rapture of the saints before the Great Tribulation:

(1) This countless multitude, which can only represent the Church, is shown in Heaven (Rev 7) long before the Great Tribulation begins (which would be after Revelation 13, where the Beast and the image of the Beast are worshipped). That Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:15-22).

(2) What is promised to the church at Philadelphia is generally applied to all genuine saints (Rev 3:10) since it also corresponds with 1 Thess 5:9,10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth... For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

(3) The Great Tribulation is also the Day of the LORD, and the Day of the LORD is a period of wrath against the unbelieving and the ungodly (Mal 4:1,5): For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Many Christians believe that Elijah will be on the earth with Moses (the two witnesses of Rev 11) before the Great Tribulation. But the point is that this time is reserved for those who oppose God and Christ.

(4) Since all the Tribulation saints are beheaded by the Antichrist (Rev 20:4), if the entire Church went through that period, then the whole Church would be seen as beheaded and martyred. But that is never taught in the New Testament.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
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Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

First off all things in Revelations was shown to John in visions while he was caught up in the Spirit on the isle of Patmos, Rev 1:9,10,and not actually in the third heaven where God sits on His thrown. He was to write most of these visions down and send them to the seven Churches of His time plus to all Gods true Church being the body of Christ until the end of days. God gave these visions so we would not be taken as a thief in the night for we have no excuse for not being prepared for Christ return.

In John’s vision the elder was asking John if he had understanding of those which are in white robes and how they came to be there. John did not recognize them as being Jews and asked the elder to explain who they are and where did they come from. The elder reveals to John these are they who have come out of great tribulation being Gentiles that have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and were baptized and received the Holy Spirit as the Jews have received.

John had to understand this in order to write this to the seven churches. Jews were always taught that the Gentiles were an unclean evil people full of idol worshipping and in no way could they be worthy of anything of God including his love. Jew’s were not allowed to associate with the Gentiles in fear they too would fall to their idol worshipping like they did when they followed after Jeroboam. The twelve Disciples were only allowed to go to the nations of Israel to preach, Matthew 10:5-7, but Peter was shown in a vision that the Gentiles were not unclean as they too needed to repent and come to God for his salvation.
 
Malachi said:
Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. Here's the sequence:

Seven Seals
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (Seals Opened)

Seveth Seal
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Trumpets

Seventh Trumpet
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Vials
Click to expand...
How many times does God's wrath come? Once
Why would God's wrath harm us?
Would you receive the Mark?
Like the Passover, when the death Angel came, those whom had Lamb's blood over the door post, were not harmed, this represents the sacrificial Lamb, His blood covers us.

His wrath comes once,
The seals are the knowledge of the trumps being sealed in one's forehead, mind.
In Rev.6:17 it states His wrath is come, seals, 7th seal, the trumps could not sound until all sealed
Rev.11:18 it states Thy wrath is come, trumps , 7th trump
Rev.16:19 to give the cup of His wrath, vials , 7th vial

Hope that helps, they are the same....
 
Cygnus said:
Christ returns with the "clouds" ...rapture.
Then a second time on a white horse.

To me...and many others there are two returns.
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I did go back and read your other post. Jesus does not come back twice, but only once.

Before Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives in Rev 19 (cross reference Joel 3:1-17; Zec 14:1-9) both the dead and the living who are Christ's will be changed at that time and then gathered together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, 1 Corinthians15:51-58; 1Th 4:16,17. Then we come back down to earth as part of His army as we reign with Jesus as we will be priest of God and of Christ. At that time the beast and false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, Satan bound and then let loose for awhile and then cast into the lake of fire with the beast and false prophet, Rev chapters 19 and 20.
 
1st: I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture,
why?
Because why should I be counted more worthy then all the rest who has been beheaded before me?
Do I want to be raptured before the tribulation? YES PLEASE!
What could cause a pre-trib rapture?
The US and Catholic Church saying that the A-Beast is Elohim/God?
95% of the Christians on the planet would accept it....
oops hasn't the Catholic Church already accepted the Name of the A-Beast as the same?
Anyway then our US of A money will basically say In the A-Beast we trust?
 
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