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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

There is a simple "fact check" that I apply to every claim of understanding about scripture from anyone. It's found in Matt. 4:4 and again in Luke 4:4.

Your claim above doesn't and can't stand up to that measure.



So, because you took a wrong turn of understanding in the first attempt above, then you move to justify that false claim. And Paul in 1 Cor. 10 does a full on smackdown of what you are attempting in this second attempt at spinning the narrative. In the process your first errant claim #2 collapses because Paul says otherwise. If you read Acts 7:38 your claim #2 is stopped dead in it's tracks with a single scripture.


Knowing this the claims will either have to be scrapped or the claim is just another false claim that is hung out there without scriptural support.

Israel is a very deep subject in scripture. Does it merely mean a nation of people in the middle east? No. The fathers of faith, Abraham/Isaac and Jacob hold many clues about the nature of Israel in their writings. To understand Israel one has to go back to when and where the term originated, and how. It is found with Jacob. And the meaning of Israel points directly to our Divine Sovereign. For people, any people of faith in Christ, the meaning of Israel is "God Prevails." Anyone who has been called into Christ wears that banner for themselves, Israel, "God Prevails."

I accept that name, that term, Israel, to be a statement of the basis of our faith. It has nearly nothing to do with a spot of land or an ethnic group of people. Paul goes to the same landing place here:

Galatians 6:
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Uh, again, no.


Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You have taken on a bad foundational understanding and the errors will just continue to compound. It's nothing new. Happens to a lot of believers.

If we can't get the basics down in scriptural harmony, understanding eschatology is impossible.
I don't know your god or your book according to your teachings? It is strange fire to me. The Scriptures say they are not for private interpretation. Romans 2:29 is one Scripture, and not knowing anything else, I could fall in with you. But Romans is about the body of Christ which is one new man made up of Jew and Gentile (Letter to the Ephesians). In the study of Romans Paul makes it clear to the Jew that they (with their laws) are no better than the Gentiles, and he tells the Gentiles that because God has chosen them, not to boast against the Jew, for He has not forsaken Israel and His promises to them. (Romans Chapter 11) Please study it before and if you reply along with (Acts 1:4-9) (Acts 15:13-18) (Amos 9:9-11) The Church and Israel are two different entities with different promises and different purposes in the Kingdom.
 
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We should be asking ourselves.. Why the smokescreen of a pre-trib.. Jesus made it abundantly clear that we are no longer under the threat of Gods wrath..

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 
I don't know your god or your book according to your teachings? It is strange fire to me.
And non-specific critique accompanied by unproven (and in this case a complete non-attempt of checking the scriptures provided) accusations is a sign of the accuser to me. go figure.
 
And non-specific critique accompanied by unproven (and in this case a complete non-attempt of checking the scriptures provided) accusations is a sign of the accuser to me. go figure.[/QUOTE

Smaller, Your very attitude and flippant remarks show the absence of Spiritual witness and grace in your post. There is a change in a persons demeanor and character when he falls at the foot of the cross. And I say falls, because a man can not appreciate the work of God in Jesus Christ until he see's the true nature of himself. But God has reconciled us unto Himself for those who believe before the wrath of God comes upon all who have corrupted His wondrous creation. That is what Salvation is, we are saved from God's judgment against an unbelieving world. I believe in Spiritual unity and i'am a witness to that unity with Christ as a born again believer. This forums foundational beliefs are posted on the Forums Header, and Spiritual unity with Christ is one of them. Spiritual unity is not a wishful thinking belief, but an actual regeneration of a new man in Christ in us as we believed Christ. That is our witness (Christ in us). Spiritual unity in fellowship (Christ in us), Our new nature (Christ in us), Dying to self (Christ in us), Our faith, hope and charity (Christ in us), Judgmental (the old man in us). I or we do not make claims of teaching by carnal knowledge or pride in knowledge but by the need of the TRUTH and Spiritual gifts, given sovereignly by the Holy Spirit, and the joy (not of pride or being haughty) But Spiritual Joy.

Two Questions: Who do you believe the Christ is? And What do you need to do to be saved from the judgment of God that will come upon all the world (Almighty God)?
 
I see you "edited" your very unkind and unwarranted reply prior to this one.

Just because I reject some peoples notions, in your case about Israel and the in-applicability of some great amounts of scripture it doesn't mean I think you're going to hell or you're bad.

It's legit critique of phony claims made. Deal with it for what it is. By The Word.

And also spare me your christian litmus tests, particularly in an end time forum. I've posted here for a long time as an avowed believer, adhere to the Nicene creed, and have given my personal testimony about how I was saved by Jesus numerous times.
 
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I was saved by Jesus numerous times.
To be saved is done by the cross of Christ once and for all time to the born again believer. If you have been Spiritually born again, and tasted the word of Truth (that should have changed your heart to God and your fellow man) To continue to ask Christ to save us numerous times is to hang Christ upon the Cross again, putting Him to an open shame each time. (Hebrews chapter 6)
smaller --> (It's legit critique of phony claims made. Deal with it for what it is. By The Word.) and (spare me with your christian litmus test) This is what I meant by Spiritual absence and grace in your post, I have made no phony claims. and I can not "deal with it" as you present your theology. There is no litmus test, but there is a Spiritual litmus test. (1 John 4:1-6) You said I was unkind (it was not meant to be) It was posted in question why your theology is without error and I'am beneath you with your comments above. I don't mind being beneath you, but I will teach and defend the faith as preached by Christ's Apostles. And with this only I'am at odds with you.
 
To continue to ask Christ to save us numerous times is to hang Christ upon the Cross again, putting Him to an open shame each time. (Hebrews chapter 6)

Hello! Douglas, is anybody home? I made no such statement. Here is my exact quote:

"and have given my personal testimony about how I was saved by Jesus numerous times."

And here is how you plucked it and termed it, quite falsely:
smaller said: (only according to DOUGLAS)
"I was saved by Jesus numerous times."

How do you expect to dialog about end time scripture if you can't understand or even accurately quote a single statement?

And we wonder why believers can't understand "end time" scriptures?
 
Hello! Douglas, is anybody home? I made no such statement. Here is my exact quote:

"and have given my personal testimony about how I was saved by Jesus numerous times."

And here is how you plucked it and termed it, quite falsely:
smaller said: (only according to DOUGLAS)
"I was saved by Jesus numerous times."

How do you expect to dialog about end time scripture if you can't understand or even accurately quote a single statement?

And we wonder why believers can't understand "end time" scriptures?
Lol! Settle down a bit. Your sentence is ambiguous the way it is worded and can be taken to mean exactly what Douglas took it to mean. That would probably even be the preferred understanding.

Something like, "and have given my personal testimony numerous times about how I was saved by Jesus" would be better. That is not ambiguous.
 
"and have given my personal testimony about how I was saved by Jesus numerous times."
Then you must have meant that, "you have given numerous personal testimonies about how you were saved by Jesus". That brings joy and praise to every believers heart and sole, Amen. But with me, you continue to show no peace and only contempt for what the Lord has given me?
 
You may not accept the 1000 years as stated in Rev but the reason isn't because Jesus failed to make the testimony clear. He gave that testimony and all I read is basically Rev is hard to understand and isn't clear. There is a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous as stated in Daniel and the gospels but God has made it clear in Rev that there is 1000 years between them. You either believe God or you don't but Rev 20 is a clear read.

Rev 20
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

Psalm 110
The Lord says to my lord,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
Yes, but that is not the way you posted it. Sorry

It was just as much in the intention of the reader.

Anyway, it doesn't pay to take offense when anyone critiques positions. That's how we learn. I had zero intentions of denigrating you, but some of the positions are another story. They deserve critique of scripture.

When we think the Lord has shown us anything, it will always be confirmed or not by what's already been written. Otherwise we're just freelancing claiming it on Jesus' account.

The Apostles taught from Gods Written Word and so did Jesus. All the classic foundational Christian matters were drawn directly from the O.T. writings.

Revelation was not plucked out of thin air. Everything in it can be found one way or another from the O.T. When anyone casts aside Israel or the O.T. they do themselves a disservice.
 
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And He's coming soon...(smile)

Yes as stated there is both a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous but because of the clear understanding given by Jesus in REV there is a 1000 year period of time between the two. So if one teaches a future 1000 period between the two resurrections its not because of any theory or theology of man its because they read and believed those words to be true. Thats my reason.

Over and over.
Jesus=>I tell you the truth....



Randy
 
Daniel 12:1-2 (and its also post trib or at the end of trib) A testimony thats true and speaks of the distant future. (At the time it was given to man)

Rev was given to the Son by the Father

Rev 20 also speaks of the same event but in greater detail and focus and does not take away from a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous and their final outcome.

Very Specific time period given and very specific in that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years ended.
Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus[a]and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.


And for those left alive on earth (those in Christ) when the Lord returns:
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever


I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So its clear to me those who come back with the Lord (2nd coming) already have their new bodies and those who are in christ on the earth on that day are caught up and clothed with their new bodies as well.

7th trumpet
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

However the beast in in the world at the sounding of the 5th trump. But Rev 11 is a sign that can't be stopped by any power until it has been completed. (1260 days) A final last warning from God, (and a powerful one as these two witnesses who were refused burial are raised to life), to mankind before the great tribulation. If anyone in those days has even a thread of faith and love for God they will believe Gods testimony. So I state again Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. The beast that overpowers the two who serve the Lord of all the earth is destroyed by Jesus's not by human power. A coming of the Lord. Rev 16:15

What about the saints in that time period?
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Randy
 
And He's coming soon...(smile)

Yes as stated there is both a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous but because of the clear understanding given by Jesus in REV there is a 1000 year period of time between the two. So if one teaches a future 1000 period between the two resurrections its not because of any theory or theology of man its because they read and believed those words to be true. Thats my reason.

Over and over.
Jesus=>I tell you the truth....



Randy
Jesus Himself says hour not 1000 years..
 
It was just as much in the intention of the reader.
Spiritual discernment would have let you know that, that was not so.

The Apostles taught from Gods Written Word and so did Jesus. All the classic foundational Christian matters were drawn directly from the O.T. writings.
Correct, I never disputed that. In fact, all of the OT Scripture were given by the Lord to be written, even to the very words,(2 Tim. 3:16) (2 Pet. 1:20-21) (1 Thess. 2:13) (1 Cor. 2:13) But that only applies to the original writings. And even more, Christ confirms The OT Scriptures of Creation, Adam and Eve, Moses, David and so on.. ALL Scripture is inspired by God, and Jesus would know (Heb. 1:3) (Col. 2:9)

Revelation was not plucked out of thin air. Everything in it can be found one way or another from the O.T. When anyone casts aside Israel or the O.T. they do themselves a disservice. (correct) I never claimed any different)

Here is where the church is at (Heb. 5:12-6:13) This is where the Church should be (Acts 2:22-47) and this should be the Spirit and heart of the Church (1 Corinthians chapter 13)

While denominations, the religious, and self willed argue over doctrines and Scripture meanings, and their pride in knowledge "so called" are incensed over being challenged on their own interpretations, The world has become nothing more than a hollow statue of religious icons and fables The visible church has settled down in to the world where Satan's throne is and has prostituted itself with the world. (for those who do not understand this statement) Satan is the prince of this worlds (age and principles) (Revelation's letters to the Churches) Yet in this age there is still a living body of Christ (Church of Philadelphia). Every single Christian foundation our Government was founded on by the faith as small as a mustard seed has grown into a wild tree where every haunch and evil bird feels comfortable to settle on to it's branches, where there is no honor , praise or Spirit of God. And the Lord's warnings and signs of the times are unfolding before us, just like He prophesied. But the wise of this world know that all bad things are caused by "Global Warming"! Things are so backwards and in chaos it i like living in an SNL skit.......Except it's not funny! Repent or perish!
 
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