Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[reba]

IF a thousand years is as a day... then are there 365,000 what we call days .. .there are 8760 hours in a earthly year .. how many in a thousand..

 

[for_his_glory]

You may not accept the 1000 years as stated in Rev but the reason isn't because Jesus failed to make the testimony clear. He gave that testimony and all I read is basically Rev is hard to understand and isn't clear. There is a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous as stated in Daniel and the gospels but God has made it clear in Rev that there is 1000 years between them. You either believe God or you don't but Rev 20 is a clear read.

Rev 20
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

Psalm 110
The Lord says to my lord,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.”

There is no scripture in the Bible that says Jesus is going to reign here on earth for 1000 years with we His saints after the angle is sent to bind Satan. Rev 20:4-6 reads that the souls, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7, of those who were beheaded for the sake of their faith in God for not taking the mark of the beast reign with Christ 1000 years in heaven with 1000 years here being symbolic and not literal, because it's been more than 1000 years since they were beheaded.

Back in Rev 6:9-11 we read about the martyr's under the alter waiting to have their blood avenged and are told to wait a season until their fellow servants and brethren should be killed as they were and then all should be fulfilled. That fulfillment will come with the last one being beheaded for their faith in God as they refuse the mark of the beast.

Their victory comes at the time Satan is bound, Rev 20:1-3, so he can not interfer with the first resurrection of the saints, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, as at that time being the last day, John 6:40, Jesus returns and Satan is then loosed for a short time as he gathers those from every nation, that are still alive and have rejected Jesus, to battle against the saints of God, but God sends fire down and from heaven and destroys them all and then Satah is cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection are those who are asleep in the grave that have rejected Jesus and will stand in Gods great white throne judgment and as their names are not found in the book of life will then be cast into the lake of fire

There are some things not mentioned in Revelation 20.
1. it does not mention the second coming of Christ.
2. it does not mention a reign on earth.
3. this passage does not mention a bodily resurrection.
4. it does not mention Christ on earth.
5. it does not mention us, it says "they" lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Sinthesis]

Back in Rev 6:9-11 we read about the martyr's under the alter waiting to have their blood avenged and are told to wait a season until their fellow servants and brethren should be killed as they were and then all should be fulfilled. That fulfillment will come with the last one being beheaded for their faith in God as they refuse the mark of the beast.

Paul was beheaded. Does that mean a season is nearly two thousand years?

 

[Sinthesis]

IF a thousand years is as a day... then are there 365,000 what we call days .. .there are 8760 hours in a earthly year .. how many in a thousand..

Well which one of those hours is Jesus'?

 

[smaller]

Spiritual discernment would have let you know that, that was not so.

The reactions you expressed are quite common among believers. Unreasonable. I don't blame you mind you.

The Apostles taught from Gods Written Word and so did Jesus. All the classic foundational Christian matters were drawn directly from the O.T. writings.

Correct, I never disputed that. In fact, all of the OT Scripture were given by the Lord to be written, even to the very words,(2 Tim. 3:16) (2 Pet. 1:20-21) (1 Thess. 2:13) (1 Cor. 2:13) But that only applies to the original writings. And even more, Christ confirms The OT Scriptures of Creation, Adam and Eve, Moses, David and so on.. ALL Scripture is inspired by God, and Jesus would know (Heb. 1:3) (Col. 2:9)

Revelation was not plucked out of thin air. Everything in it can be found one way or another from the O.T. When anyone casts aside Israel or the O.T. they do themselves a disservice. (correct) I never claimed any different)

Here is where the church is at (Heb. 5:12-6:13) This is where the Church should be (Acts 2:22-47) and this should be the Spirit and heart of the Church (1 Corinthians chapter 13)

While denominations, the religious, and self willed argue over doctrines and Scripture meanings, and their pride in knowledge "so called" are incensed over being challenged on their own interpretations,

It's automatic and quite natural for believers to establish understandings. To stake them out, and to defend them. And also to "test" these understandings directly with Word, continually. That's part of the joy of being a believer. Scriptural harmony is not an easy gig and there are variations in the amount of light/understandings that are given to people, by God in Christ.

The world has become nothing more than a hollow statue of religious icons and fables The visible church has settled down in to the world where Satan's throne is and has prostituted itself with the world.

(for those who do not understand this statement) Satan is the prince of this worlds (age and principles) (Revelation's letters to the Churches) Yet in this age there is still a living body of Christ (Church of Philadelphia).

There is no individual or sect who is only in any particular church as Rev. 2 and 3 refers to. Some will hear and understand (again noted to you) that every Word of God applies to every one of us. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. If people claim they are only in the "church of Philadelphia" in particular, because it is the only church where they think they can see how to wriggle out from being in the other churches, and hence NOT hear what is said to the other churches, it merely shows their lack of personal insights. Every believer should be able to just as easily discern that in the flesh they are also in the church of Laodicea IF they can not personally accept and apply the conditions that Jesus said THEY are in.

There is no division in the church(es) in Jesus' Eyes, OR the mutual conditions of ALL of those churches and ALL their members on the ill side of the ledgers.

 

[markathome]

Revelation 20:1-9
And I saw an angel come down from heaven,
having the key of the bottomless pit
and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up,
and set a seal upon him,
that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived
and reigned with Christ
a thousand years.

to live/living water ~zao
even/then/also ~kai
to rule/reign ~basileuo
with/after/behind ~meta
Christ/anointed ~Christos
a thousand ~chilioi
year ~etos

There is no scripture in the Bible that says Jesus is going to reign here on earth for 1000 years with we His saints after the angle is sent to bind Satan.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Would this help?

 

[for_his_glory]

Paul was beheaded. Does that mean a season is nearly two thousand years?

A season is God's timing not ours.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 20:1-9
And I saw an angel come down from heaven,
having the key of the bottomless pit
and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,
And cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up,
and set a seal upon him,
that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived
and reigned with Christ
a thousand years.

to live/living water ~zao
even/then/also ~kai
to rule/reign ~basileuo
with/after/behind ~meta
Christ/anointed ~Christos
a thousand ~chilioi
year ~etos



But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Would this help?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

What part of they do you not understand in these passages of scripture. They are those whose souls who have gone up to heaven that have been beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ. The first resurrection does not occur until the last day, John 6:40, when Satan is bound by the angel of God and then Jesus returns and gathers all who are His that are in the grave and those who are still alive at His coming as we are then given our new glorified bodies and will be with the Lord forever, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. Satan is loosed for a time to gather all those from every nation who are still alive at Christ coming that have rejected Jesus as they come against the saints, but God sends fire down and devours them and Satan is the cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection are those who have died without faith in God and will stand in judgment and be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Sinthesis]

A season is God's timing not ours.

Winter is coming.

 

[for_his_glory]

Winter is coming.

I wasn't talking about the four seasons. I was talking about Gods timing not being our timing. What we count as days and years are not always what God counts as His days and years.

 

[markathome]

What part of they do you not understand in these passages of scripture. They are those whose souls who have gone up to heaven that have been beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ.

So less have a look at the word "they", sorry its the same concept as whats the meaning of the word "is".

Example:
What part of "is" do you not understand in these passages of scripture.

punch line
"is" are those whose souls who have gone up to heaven that have been beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ.

Revelation 6:9-10

Does it say that they refused the mark?
Does it say that they was beheaded?
It clearly says "to put to death by violence ~sphazo"
If it doesn't say it then don't add it!


Revelation 20:4
not ~ou
kiss/prostrate oneself in homage ~proskuneo
an animal/venomous dangerous beast/bestial man ~therion
neither/not ~oute
of them/he ~autos
an image ~eikon
even/then/also ~kai
not ~ou
to take/to receive ~lambano a stamp/thing carved/sculpture/graven work ~charagma
of time/place/order ~epi of them/he ~autos
the forehead ~metopon even/then/also ~kai
of time/place/order ~epi of them/he ~autos
by the help/agency of any one ~cheir even/then/also ~kai
to live/living water ~zao even/then/also ~kai
to rule/reign ~basileuo with/after/behind ~meta
Christ/anointed ~Christos a thousand ~chilioi


Does it say that they refused the mark?
Does it say that they refused the image?
Does it say that they was beheaded?
Does it say that they will reign with Christ a thousand years?


Does it say that the "they" are the same "they"?
Does it imply that the "they" are the same "they"?

 

[Douglas Summers]

There is no division in the church(es) in Jesus' Eyes, OR the mutual conditions of ALL of those churches and ALL their members on the ill side of the ledgers.

??? Explain? smaller ----->If people claim they are only in the "church of Philadelphia" in particular, because it is the only church where they think they can see how to wriggle out from being in the other churches, and hence NOT hear what is said to the other churches, it merely shows their lack of personal insights. One can not claim to be in the Church of Philadelphia. It is not something you join. Christ is speaking here of four things:

1. All the churches in Revelation were established churches (all located in Turkey) Probably by Paul. And it is an admonition to these local churches.
2. It is a warning to all churches through the ages.
3. It is also to each individual person in the church (Those who have ears to hear)
4. And is a prophetic condition of the churches through the ages.

Your judgment of my calling and election and things Spiritual is void before the Lord, for the body of Christ is judged by no man, yet we judge all things by Jesus, Not to condemnation, for that will be left up to Christ. But we judge within the body, casting down imaginations. For while I'am still in the flesh, our calling and election is not of the flesh but mighty through God in tearing down everything that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity the Truth of God's purpose through His Gospel.
Most of your biblical philosophy that you post to me is of a carnal nature. I can not find any spiritual foundation?

 

[smaller]

??? Explain? smaller ----->If people claim they are only in the "church of Philadelphia" in particular, because it is the only church where they think they can see how to wriggle out from being in the other churches, and hence NOT hear what is said to the other churches, it merely shows their lack of personal insights. One can not claim to be in the Church of Philadelphia. It is not something you join.

Never said it was. I did observe that every Word of God applies directly to us as individuals. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. That includes every Word spoken by Jesus to the 7 churches in Rev. 2-3, as we are directed to "listen." That doesn't mean just listen to the stuff we happen to "like."

Still waiting for you to use the quote feature btw. Don't you think it's time?

Christ is speaking here of four things:

1. All the churches in Revelation were established churches (all located in Turkey) Probably by Paul. And it is an admonition to these local churches.
2. It is a warning to all churches through the ages.
3. It is also to each individual person in the church (Those who have ears to hear)
4. And is a prophetic condition of the churches through the ages.

Your judgment of my calling and election and things Spiritual is void before the Lord,

I specifically isolated a couple of your claims and applied specific scriptural critique to the contrary of same claims by comparison to your claims. It has nothing to do with you personally.

 

[Sinthesis]

I wasn't talking about the four seasons. I was talking about Gods timing not being our timing. What we count as days and years are not always what God counts as His days and years.

Do you have a specific biblical example?

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you have a specific biblical example?

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8; Acts 1:7; 1Thessalonians 5:1-5; Galatians 4:4; 2Peter 3:8; Revelation 6:11

 

[for_his_glory]

So less have a look at the word "they", sorry its the same concept as whats the meaning of the word "is".

Example:
What part of "is" do you not understand in these passages of scripture.

punch line
"is" are those whose souls who have gone up to heaven that have been beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ.

Revelation 6:9-10

Does it say that they refused the mark?
Does it say that they was beheaded?
It clearly says "to put to death by violence ~sphazo"
If it doesn't say it then don't add it!


Revelation 20:4
not ~ou
kiss/prostrate oneself in homage ~proskuneo
an animal/venomous dangerous beast/bestial man ~therion
neither/not ~oute
of them/he ~autos
an image ~eikon
even/then/also ~kai
not ~ou
to take/to receive ~lambano a stamp/thing carved/sculpture/graven work ~charagma
of time/place/order ~epi of them/he ~autos
the forehead ~metopon even/then/also ~kai
of time/place/order ~epi of them/he ~autos
by the help/agency of any one ~cheir even/then/also ~kai
to live/living water ~zao even/then/also ~kai
to rule/reign ~basileuo with/after/behind ~meta
Christ/anointed ~Christos a thousand ~chilioi


Does it say that they refused the mark?
Does it say that they refused the image?
Does it say that they was beheaded?
Does it say that they will reign with Christ a thousand years?


Does it say that the "they" are the same "they"?
Does it imply that the "they" are the same "they"?

"is" verb, third person, singular, present tense of the verb to be
"they" pronoun, the two or more beings just mentioned
they had
they will
they are
they have

The word "is" is not mentioned in Rev 6:9-11, but only "they" being read three times in these scriptures. They, being the souls under the altar in Rev 6:9-11, are they who have been persecuted to death by either beheading or other forms of being put to death. They are told to rest awhile until their fellowservants and brethren that should be killed as they were should be fulfilled. This fulfillment will come as those faithful servants and brethren that refuse the mark of the beast will also be killed by being beheaded or in other forms of being killed just like many even today are being beheaded and also being killed in other forms of persecutions to death for their faith in God.

 

[markathome]

the "is" was a bill clinton reference, srry you didnt get that part of it. I was trying to have a sense of humor, guess I need to work on it.
When you repeat the statement over and over that

There is no scripture in the Bible that says Jesus is going to reign here on earth for 1000 years with WE His saints after the angle is sent to bind Satan.

you are taking away from the words in Revelation.
You then add the word "WE" and that is a problem.
The "WE" per Revelation 22:18-20 would not be a part of those under the altar, neither would the "WE" reign with Christ a thousand years.
The "WE" is those that God shall take away his part from the Book of Life.

Please Stop it!

 

[Sinthesis]

I wasn't talking about the four seasons. I was talking about Gods timing not being our timing. What we count as days and years are not always what God counts as His days and years.

Do you have a specific biblical example?

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8; Acts 1:7; 1Thessalonians 5:1-5; Galatians 4:4; 2Peter 3:8; Revelation 6:11

None of these verses support the view that what the Holy Spirit communicates to us through scripture regarding time is not dependable since people have a different concept of time than God. God knows how we count days and years, and takes that into account when communicating to us through scripture lest He author confusion. Any error in understanding is on our part.

 

[for_his_glory]

None of these verses support the view that what the Holy Spirit communicates to us through scripture regarding time is not dependable since people have a different concept of time than God. God knows how we count days and years, and takes that into account when communicating to us through scripture lest He author confusion. Any error in understanding is on our part.

All those scriptures I gave you speak of Gods timing as the simplicity of the wording needs no Spiritual enlightenment of what they say.

Yes, God does deal with time as being our timing for certain things, but also things that are only in His timing that is not ours to know.
Example: Matthew 24:32-39 no one knows when Christ will return as that is only in Gods timing, but God also gives us signs to watch for that it will be soon. Maybe in our lifetime or maybe not as only Gods holds the time.

 

[for_his_glory]

the "is" was a bill clinton reference, srry you didnt get that part of it. I was trying to have a sense of humor, guess I need to work on it.
When you repeat the statement over and over that

you are taking away from the words in Revelation.
You then add the word "WE" and that is a problem.
The "WE" per Revelation 22:18-20 would not be a part of those under the altar, neither would the "WE" reign with Christ a thousand years.
The "WE" is those that God shall take away his part from the Book of Life.

Please Stop it!

Sorry I didn't get the Bill Clinton thing as it went over my head. Not much into politics, but do remember him saying he didn't have
_ _ _ with that women, LOL.

I hold this fact as there is no scripture that says Jesus will reign here on earth for 1000 years after Satan is bound and no I am not adding "we" as it is others who teach a 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth that says "we" will reign with Him for that 1000 years.

I think we need to back up a bit for clarification. Back in post # 1329 I was showing that there is no 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth and that Satan is not bound for 100 years. You can go back and read that.

Randy replied to that post with his post #1348 and in post #1352 I replied that 1000 years are not literal, but only that of Gods timing not being the same as our timing and in post #1355 I gave scripture to show how Gods timing is His own and not ours.

I then went back to show how Rev 20:4-6 says Jesus reigns 1000 years in heaven, not earth, with all those who were beheaded as they refused the mark of the beast and have now joined those souls under the altar in Rev 6:9-11 fulfilling that of Rev 6:11. I only used Rev 6:9-11 to show that fulfillment and that Jesus reigns with those souls in heaven for a 1000 years and not here on earth for a 1000 years after Satan is bound.

The 1000 years in Rev 20:3 is that future fulfillment of Rev 6:11 that will come in the end of days as Satan will then be loosed for a very short time before being cast into the lake of fire.

I replied to your post #1386 with my post #1388 to show that Jesus reigns with those souls in heaven, not here on earth as they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years in heaven, Rev 20:4.

In your post #1391 you started this "they" "is" thing and I replied in post #1396 who they are and there is no "is" in Rev 20:4-6