Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Endtime_Survivors]

Again where does the Bible say the great tribulation My quick search is in KJ i will tell you KJ does not say the great tribulation

Hi Reba. I suppose you are right that there is no place where "the" is used to describe "great tribulation". However, using "the" sure is a lot easier than having to say, "such as was not since the beginning nor ever shall be" every time we want to refer to this specific period of time.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" Matthew 24:21.

 

[reba]

Are you then adding to the Word of God? Also placing the THE in front of the term great tribulation gives it a given time and space God chose not to do so.. I really changes a lot more then one firsts thinks.. Man has made 'the great tribulation" a specific time God didn't
.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

what "specific time" do you think "the" great tribulation implies?

 

[reba]

I dont cuz the great tribulation is not scriptural

 

[turnorburn]

I dont cuz the great tribulation is not scriptural

Indeed it tisn't "For then shall be great tribulation" not "For then shall be A great tribulation"

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Would we consider this to be great tribulation?..

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/this-just-in.64142/

 

[Sinthesis]

Would we consider this to be great tribulation?..

Not at all. If you have to ask then clearly it's not significant.

 

[Malachi]

Hi Reba. I suppose you are right that there is no place where "the" is used to describe "great tribulation".

Actually, that is not quite correct. Please note that the Greek words used in Revelation 7:14 are literally "the tribulation the great" and have been translated as "the Great Tribulation" (KJB 2000).

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, [tes thlipseos tes megales = the Tribulation the great] καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου.

King James 2000 Bible
And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[markathome]

Revelation 7:14 [even/then/also~kai] [to utter, speak, say~ereo] [of them/he~autos] [supreme in authority~kurios] [you~su] [to see/to know~eido] [even/then/also~kai] [to speak~epo] [I/me/mine~moi] [this/these~houtos] [are/were~eisi] [to come~erchomai] [out of/away from~ek] [greatest~megas] [tribulation/distress/oppression~thlipsis] [even/then/also~kai] [to wash/cleanse~pluno] [of them/he~autos] [garment~stole] [even/then/also~kai] [to whiten/make white~leukaino] [of them/he~autos] [garment~stole] [to whiten/make white~leukaino] [in/by/with~en] [blood~haima] [a little lamb/a lamb~arnion]
ok still got like 2000 greek words to go I think, l'm slowly getting it done. If I get anything wrong let me know and I'll correct it.
http://www.web-ministry.com/recycle/index.php?BOOK=66&CHAPTER=7&VERSE=14

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually, that is not quite correct. Please note that the Greek words used in Revelation 7:14 are literally "the tribulation the great" and have been translated as "the Great Tribulation" (KJB 2000).

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, [tes thlipseos tes megales = the Tribulation the great] καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου.

King James 2000 Bible
And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

KJV version copyright 1990:
Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There have always been tribulations from the beginning of sin entering into the world up until the great and terrible day of the Lord when God pours out His wrath on all the nations that refuse to repent during the seven trumpet and vial judgments as many who are fellow servants will continue to be persecuted to death by the hands of Gods enemies. Those that are mentioned in Rev 7:14 are those martyr's of the past that are under the altar in heaven that were killed for the sake of their witness of Christ and wait to be avenged for their blood that was spilled as they are told to wait for their fellow servants who will also be persecuted to death, Rev 6:9-11.

No where in Revelations other than Rev 2:10, 22; 7:14 does it say anything about the great tribulation as being one certain event.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[reba]

Revelation 7:14 [even/then/also~kai] [to utter, speak, say~ereo] [of them/he~autos] [supreme in authority~kurios] [you~su] [to see/to know~eido] [even/then/also~kai] [to speak~epo] [I/me/mine~moi] [this/these~houtos] [are/were~eisi] [to come~erchomai] [out of/away from~ek] [greatest~megas] [tribulation/distress/oppression~thlipsis] [even/then/also~kai] [to wash/cleanse~pluno] [of them/he~autos] [garment~stole] [even/then/also~kai] [to whiten/make white~leukaino] [of them/he~autos] [garment~stole] [to whiten/make white~leukaino] [in/by/with~en] [blood~haima] [a little lamb/a lamb~arnion]
ok still got like 2000 greek words to go I think, l'm slowly getting it done. If I get anything wrong let me know and I'll correct it.
http://www.web-ministry.com/recycle/index.php?BOOK=66&CHAPTER=7&VERSE=14

Mark that is so hard on my old eyes

 

[markathome]

Now ya know why the eye doctor said I was going blind , having to look at code all day that looks like that. Well the code is better formatted plus its something that I need to finish, been on back burner for 5-6 years.

Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural?
I dont know but learning some greek words has been fun.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Are you then adding to the Word of God? Also placing the THE in front of the term great tribulation gives it a given time and space God chose not to do so.. I really changes a lot more then one firsts thinks.. Man has made 'the great tribulation" a specific time God didn't
.

I'm guessing, when you saying "adding to the word of God" that you mean tampering with the teachings or somehow trying to make them say something they do not say?

I don't think that's what "the" does, at least in this case. As I suggested in my previous post, Jesus clarified that he is talking about one specific instance of tribulation. He said there's never been tribulation like this, nor ever will be again. It is limited to a specific time in God's plan.

I'm not sure they used particles like "a" and "the" in Hebrew and/or Greek, but in English we use them to denote specific meaning. So when we say "the" great tribulation it is a way of referring back to the tribulation which Jesus mentioned, without needing to say, every time, "such as never was nor ever will be again". We could also say "greatest tribulation". It would be a slightly different word, and in some circumstances the superlative could change the meaning, but in this context it would not. The superlative makes "the" redundant in the same way that not using the superlative makes "the" applicable.

I can understand your caution regarding changes to the words. Small changes can make a big difference, which is why I think we can't depend on the letter of the law. We need to get the spirit of what's being communicated.

But, one thing I don't understand is how you're relating this issue of "the" Great Tribulation to the topic. Why do you see it as significant to the topic?

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

Actually, that is not quite correct. Please note that the Greek words used in Revelation 7:14 are literally "the tribulation the great" and have been translated as "the Great Tribulation" (KJB 2000).

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, [tes thlipseos tes megales = the Tribulation the great] καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου.

King James 2000 Bible
And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Hi Malachi. Thanks for that clarification. I think even without the "the", the context makes it clear that this is the same great tribulation Jesus referred to (i.e. greatest tribulation).

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

In these verses we read great tribulation and affliction. By studying the seven trumpet and vile chastisements of Gods wrath on those who refuse to repent we can see that this is a greater tribulation time then ever was before or ever will be again as there has always been tribulations. I like how Mark used the word afflictions as during this time of a greater tribulation then was ever before nor ever will be God will allow the affliction to come upon man especially during the vial judgments.

The seventh seal begins the day of Gods wrath with the first four seals being destruction of the environment that will cause many to lose their lives. Rev 6:17, the ones who will be able to stand are those who have Gods seal upon them as they continue the witness and testimony of Jesus throughout the nations.

One thing we need to take into consideration before going forward in our study is that during the seven trumpet sounds this will be Global in what God causes to happen on earth. God’s wrath will not necessarily be centered in just one confined area, but one area can cause much damage throughout the world as a whole. During the time of the seven trumpets sounding one third of everything here on earth will be destroyed. This includes our food supply and fresh water as one third of the oceans, sea, rivers and streams are destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it that will be burned. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. One third of all people living on earth will be killed by the hail and fire. With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors and vehicles.

This will be the time of the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth to join together in calling safety and provisions to all who will bow down to the beast and the false prophet, Rev Chapter 13. This is not only a time of a false calling of peace and safety that many will bow down to, but also a time of great persecution as many who are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30, and stand in the Holy place, Matthew 24:15, which is our faith in Christ Jesus will join those under the alter, Rev 6:9-11, as they died a martyr's death, Matthew 10:28.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever. The time of Gods longsuffering and patience is coming to an end and God would that none should perish, 2 Peter 3:9. Many will repent during this time as their ears are finally opened to the witness and testimony of Gods word as it is carried out into the word to every nation, Matthew 24:13, 14.

 

[turnorburn]

Not at all. If you have to ask then clearly it's not significant.

Then you don't think this is significant?

Nuclear Engineer: “Alarm bells” are going off over Fukushima plume coming to US West Coast — People will be dying from radiation that’s flowing across Pacific — Massive amounts of nuclear waste are flowing into ocean every day, and will for more than a century — “We’ve contaminated the biggest source of water on planet, and there’s no way to stop it”

 

[jasonc]

Then you don't think this is significant?

Nuclear Engineer: “Alarm bells” are going off over Fukushima plume coming to US West Coast — People will be dying from radiation that’s flowing across Pacific — Massive amounts of nuclear waste are flowing into ocean every day, and will for more than a century — “We’ve contaminated the biggest source of water on planet, and there’s no way to stop it”

Seriously, do you actually understand beta and alpha radiation isn't that harmful? You have to have a sore or ingest the source for either to bother you.

 

[turnorburn]

Seriously, do you actually understand beta and alpha radiation isn't that harmful? You have to have a sore or ingest the source for either to bother you.

That's probably why the mainstream media never talks about it.. Its like a friend of mine said some years ago "Its Mind Over Matter" If you don't mind it don't matter..

 

[jasonc]

That's probably why the mainstream media never talks about it.. Its like a friend of mine said some years ago "Its Mind Over Matter" If you don't mind it don't matter..

Oh please.the death tell I'm japan is what? Chernyobyl had a worse leak and no person died from the radiation.

 

[jasonc]

37 injuries,2 had possible radiation poisoining.with what you post and the states along the west coast would have to know it and call in the guard.

 

[turnorburn]

“Nuclear Nightmare”: Children with mutations “on almost every street” — Deformed heads, lopsided bodies, “toad skin”, eyelids turned inside out — School built using radioactive waste “part of community outreach project” — Nuclear Expert: “Exceptionally worrying, no one should’ve been living anywhere near”

• How India’s Nuclear Industry Created A River Of Death…
• Researchers found that the Subarnarekha river and areas around Jadugoda, India, were poisoned from the emissions of a nearby secret nuclear factory…
• [T]he Center for Public Integrity has reviewed hundreds of pages of personal testimony and clinical reports in the case that present a disturbing scenario…
• Doctors and health workers, as well as international radiation experts, say that nuclear chiefs have repeatedly suppressed or rebuffed their warnings… The case files include epidemiological and medical surveys warning of a high incidence of infertility, birth defects and congenital illnesses…
• [Dipak Ghosh, a respected Indian physicist and dean of the Faculty of Science at Jadavpur University, with his] team collected samples from the river and from adjacent wells, seven years ago, he was alarmed by the results… “It was potentially catastrophic,” Ghosh said in a recent interview. Millions of people along the waterway were potentially exposed…
• Many said their children were born with partially formed skulls, blood disorders, missing eyes or toes, fused fingers or brittle limbs…
• Analyzing a representative sample of people between 4 and 60 years old living within a mile and a half of the third tailing dam, the researchers hired by [Uranium Corporation of India Limited] concluded that the residents were “affected by radiation.”… symptoms included swollen joints, spleens and livers, and coughing up blood. The UCIL report also described “osteoporosis, defective limbs, and habitual abortion,” as well as many complaints of “missed menstrual cycle” and a cluster of cancer cases…
• [A]n American diplomat [warned that] “lax safety measures … are exposing local tribal communities to radiation contamination.” In a confidential cable to Washington, Henry V. Jardine, a career foreign service officer and former Army captain, expressed blunt dismay… In a new cable on June 6, 2008… Jardine told Washington that still another epidemiological study had concluded “indigenous groups … living close to the mines reportedly suffer high-rates of cancer, physical deformities, blindness, brain damage and other ailments.” UCIL “refuses to acknowledge these issues,” he noted. Jardine wrapped up: “Post contacts, citing independent research, say that it is difficult to point out any reason other than radiation…”
• Surendra Gadekar, a nuclear physicist, began taking soil, water and air samples… Their study was published in 2004… It found radiation levels inside the villages around the tailing ponds were almost 60 times the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission “safe level.”… [They] also documented the existence in neighboring populations of children with malformed torsos and deformed heads and the wrong number of fingers, as well as a cluster of cases where infants’ bodies grew at different rates, giving them a lopsided gait. Some had hyperkeratosis, a condition known as “toad skin”…
• In late 2000, [Hiroaki Koide, a nuclear engineer who teaches at the Research Reactor Institute at Kyoto University] took soil and water samples… “These figures were exceptionally worrying,” Koide said. “No one should have been living anywhere near“… Koide confirmed that uranium rock and finely ground mine tailings had been used as ballast for road leveling and house building and to construct a local school and clinic… [A] senior UCIL official… confirmed these construction projects using irradiated materials had gone ahead as “part of a community outreach project.”

http://enenews.com/nuclear-nightmar...feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+ENENews+(Energy+News)