Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[for_his_glory]

I believe I agree with what you wrote here. But because of the testimony in Rev I hold to a thousand year gap between the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. The righteous a bodily resurrection and the unrighteous brought up for final judgment which is the lake of fire.

During the 1000 period in the reign of Christ Jesus the children of God will be over the nations. Every name not found in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire which takes place after the 1000 years has been completed.

Rev 2:
To the one who is victorious (overcomes) and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[b]—just as I have received authority from my Father.28 I will also give that one the morning star.29 Whoever has ears, let them hearwhat the Spirit says to the churches.

You have all right to hold to that of what you believe to be true and I have no problem with that even though I do not agree with a literal 1000 year reign as I will post the whole of why I believe it is only symbolic.

 

[for_his_glory]

I know this is somewhat lengthy, but sometimes we need the whole to understand a part.

Right after the seven vial judgments have been poured out on those who took the mark of the beast mystery Babylon will have been revealed and destroyed with fire as the kings of all the nations who took part in her will flee and bewail her destruction as well as those merchants who were made rich by her. Heaven and all those souls that have gone back to God while their physical bodies returned to the ground/grave will then rejoice as their blood will be avenged by God as the great city Babylonian that has been revealed will be destroyed and the preaching of the Gospel will end as the door of Salvation will be closed forever as in Jesus was life and life was the light of men, but the darkness could not comprehend it, Rev 16-18, John 1:1-5.

Rev 19:1-6 begins with all those in heaven as they are rejoicing as God will have judged the great whore and destroys her in the end of days as even now she is corrupting the earth an causes much blood shed as she persecutes the saints of God to death. Rev 19:7-10 comes the timing of the marriage of the Lamb as the whore of Babylon and her city will have been destroyed and all those who are Christ asleep in the grave and alive at His coming have prepared themselves for the marriage of the Lamb as they being His Bride will sup with Him for eternity. Rev 19:7-9 mentions nothing of us being caught up to Him yet, but to us it will be granted that we being the Bride should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The events that follow after heaven rejoices starting with Rev 19:11-21 is that Jesus returns with his army of warring angels (not the saints of God) from heaven that follow Him, as Jesus will then destroy the beast and fasle prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then will strike dead the remnant by the words of His mouth as the remnant are those who the beast uses to rule evil over the nations. Christ then sends an angel to bind Satan for a 1000 years so he can no longer deceive the nations (people) anymore until he is set loose for a time. A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

Rev 20:4-15 during this time of Satan being bound comes the resurrection of all, (as all means saints and those who are not of faith in God), who are asleep in the ground will hear the voice of Christ calling them to come forth as some will be resurrected to eternal life with the Father and others to damnation, John 5:28,29, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 1:1-10; 4:13-18. When we are given our new glorified bodies Jesus will gather us to Him like a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings for protection, Matthew 23:34-39. Satan will be loosed for a short time to go out and deceive the nations by gathering all those who are still alive that have rejected Christ and then sends them to attack the camp of the saints, but God sends fire down from heaven and to devour them. Satan is then cast into the lake of fire followed by those who stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment and as their names are not written in the book of life will then be cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more.

Many teach that there are two resurrections, but that is not what scriptures says.There is only one resurrection of those who sleep in the grave. Everyone was created by God, but not all are found faithful to Him as many refused to Hear the word of God and turned away from Him and will continue to do so until the coming of the Lord. Then there are those like that of the parable Jesus gave in Matthew 25:14-30 and the judgment of the Gentiles in Matthew 25:31-46. We know Jesus comes with rewards as the rewards are different for each one.

Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4 were only visions John was being shown as it is only the souls that are reigning with Christ in heaven as John 3:13 says no one other than Christ has ever ascended up to heaven. The only thing that goes back to God when this physical body dies and goes back to the dust of the ground is the very breath/spirit that made us a living soul as the soul can never die, Genesis 22:7; Ecc 12:7; Matthew 10:28. Those souls John was being shown are reigning with Christ in Heaven for a time until all of God's enemies become His footstool as Christ who sits at the right hand of the Father reigns with Him in heaven until the end comes on the last day, John 6:40, when Christ returns and establishes His kingdom here on earth, Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:33-37; Hebrews 10:12,13.

Many look for a physical kingdom here on earth and read into Rev 20 that Christ will reign for a thousand years here on earth with His saints, but truth is that Christ has always reigned with God from before the foundation of the world and for eternity, John 1:1-4; 1Peter 1:18-23. It was Satan's pride that caused the nations to sin against God, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17, but yet the nations have always been Gods kingdoms as in the end of days He will separate the sheep from the goats/wheat from the tares. In Rev 11:14-19 the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever. What this means is that Gods longsuffering and patience will come to an end, 2Peter 3:9, 10, as His great wrath is poured out on the earth. All His enemies will become His footstool, then will He send Christ and His army of angels to destroy all that is an abomination to Him casting it all into the lake of fire. Jesus will at that time establish His kingdom here on earth as God makes new the heaven and earth ushering down the new Jerusalem as we will then be with the Lord forever, Luke 19:12; 1Corinthians 15:20-26; 2Peter 3:10; Colossians 1:13; John 18:36, Rev 21:1.

Everything from Chapter 11:14 that starts the third woe with the seventh trumpet sounding and continues through Rev 20:15 comes quickly in Gods timing, even though man tries to put a certain timing to the beginning and end of Gods great wrath. We inherit the kingdoms of God from the day of our Spiritual rebirth, John 3:3-6; Romans 10:9,10 as they have been prepared for us from the foundation of the world, Matthew 25:34. We reign with Christ here on this present earth as Gods grace gives us all power and authority through that of Christ Jesus for it is not our power and authority, but is Christ's that works in us and through us as a faithful servant as He is in us and we in Him.

 

[Randy]

Rev 20:4-15 during this time of Satan being bound comes the resurrection of all, (as all means saints and those who are not of faith in God), who are asleep in the ground will hear the voice of Christ calling them to come forth as some will be resurrected to eternal life with the Father and others to damnation, John 5:28,29, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 1:1-10; 4:13-18. When we are given our new glorified bodies Jesus will gather us to Him like a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings for protection, Matthew 23:34-39. Satan will be loosed for a short time to go out and deceive the nations by gathering all those who are still alive that have rejected Christ and then sends them to attack the camp of the saints, but God sends fire down from heaven and to devour them. Satan is then cast into the lake of fire followed by those who stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment and as their names are not written in the book of life will then be cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more.

Many teach that there are two resurrections, but that is not what scriptures says.There is only one resurrection of those who sleep in the grave. Everyone was created by God, but not all are found faithful to Him as many refused to Hear the word of God and turned away from Him and will continue to do so until the coming of the Lord. Then there are those like that of the parable Jesus gave in Matthew 25:14-30 and the judgment of the Gentiles in Matthew 25:31-46. We know Jesus comes with rewards as the rewards are different for each one.

As many also read:
The qualifier for the resurrection from Jesus in regard to the gospel message=>Those who listen and learn from the Father come to me and I will raise them up at the last day. That was well understood. (of us all) The resurrection of those who belong to Jesus. A bodily resurrection. Those who are found worthy of that resurrection the 2nd death has no hold on them. As in "1st" "resurrection". Jesus will gather His own on that day from the end of the heavens. And those alive on earth one will be taken and one will be left. There is no other teaching about a different resurrection. So in that sense there is a true bodily (one) resurrection. But the dead are not raised at that time. So then those not found worthy of the 1st resurrection are the unrighteous. And the 2nd death does have hold on them at the appointed time. After the 1000 period. As we read.

And it is the beast and his armies that destroy babylon and in turn that beast is destroyed by a "coming" of the Lord. Rev 16:15 I would state 2nd coming.

So the 1000 years is literal.

Randy

 

[for_his_glory]

As many also read:
The qualifier for the resurrection from Jesus in regard to the gospel message=>Those who listen and learn from the Father come to me and I will raise them up at the last day. That was well understood. (of us all) The resurrection of those who belong to Jesus. A bodily resurrection. Those who are found worthy of that resurrection the 2nd death has no hold on them. As in "1st" "resurrection". Jesus will gather His own on that day from the end of the heavens. And those alive on earth one will be taken and one will be left. There is no other teaching about a different resurrection. So in that sense there is a true bodily (one) resurrection. But the dead are not raised at that time. So then those not found worthy of the 1st resurrection are the unrighteous. And the 2nd death does have hold on them at the appointed time. After the 1000 period. As we read.

And it is the beast and his armies that destroy babylon and in turn that beast is destroyed by a "coming" of the Lord. Rev 16:15 I would state 2nd coming.

So the 1000 years is literal.

Randy

Why would the beast and his army destroy that which is theirs as being mystery Babylon as it is Christ who reveals it and destroys it, Rev 17,18 . That would be like Satan coming against himself to destroy himself, Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Rev 16:15 only says Jesus will come as a thief and those who are not prepared as in being Spiritually born again are those of the second death as the first death is Spiritual (rejection of Christ) and the second death is physical as they will be raised to damnation, John 5:28,29.
There are two types that will be resurrected as one to eternal life and the other to damnation and I believe this all happens at the same time.

Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 25:31-46 are very simular passages as we see that immediately after the tribulation of those days, meaning after Gods mighty wrath is poured out into the world during the seven trumpet judgments, Rev 8-11, the sun will be darkened, the moon no longer gives its light, the stars fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens (notice heavens are plural as I will get back to that) shall be shakened then will appear the sign of the Son of God as the sign is the visible Glory of God in Christ as He comes in the clouds and every eye will see Him, Rev 1:7.

John 6:40 says Jesus will raise all up on the last day as there is only one resurrection according to John 5:28,29 that says all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Those who are in their graves are two types of people that will rise up, but only one resurrection that happens all at once. Many try to use Daniel 12:1,2 to say there are two separate resurrections at different times, but that is not what Daniel says.

The powers of the heavens that will be shaken is that of the war between Michael with his angels who fight against Satan who is the prince of the power of the air, Ephesians 2:2, and his angels as Satan is cast out of the third heaven where God sits on His throne and cast down through the heavens to the earth, Rev 12:7-12. From Rev 12:13 through chapter 13 we read how Satan begins his war on earth as he persecutes the remnant of the body of Christ who are still alive at this time, but they have been instructed by Jesus to stand in the holy place, Matthew 24:15, which is our faith that is Christ Jesus, when they see the abomination of desolation Daniel spoke of in Daniel 7.

Rev 13 is the abomination of desolation when Satan gives power to the beast out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth who is the son of perdition, false prophet (last antichrist) who promises peace and safety during this time of great tribulation that has never been seen before nor ever will be again, Matthew 24:21. This false prophet will cause a great falling away as God sends strong delusion on those who received not the love of truth that they should believe the lies coming out of the mouth of the son of perdition (last false prophet) who through lying signs and wonders will promise peace and safety to all who will take his mark and bow down and worship him, 2Thessalonians 2:3-12.

I believe all things from Rev 13-20 will come quickly as Jesus said He would come quickly with His rewards, Rev 22:7-12. This is how I understand it to be as I will nut shell it. Right after the vial judgments are poured out on those who refused to repent, Rev 16, then in Rev 17 and 18 the mystery Babylon is described and then destroyed. Rev 19 says the marriage of the Lamb has come, but does not say we are gathered to Jesus yet as only the time has been made ready. The army that returns with Jesus are the army of warring angels in heaven that come with Him as He comes first to destroy the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then the remnant being those used by Satan to rule over the nations as now the enemy have become the footstool of God, Psalms 110:1; Luke 20:43.

Rev 20 Jesus then establishes His kingdom here on earth as He binds Satan for a time as He then calls all who are in their graves, John 5:28,29, as He separates the sheep from the goats as the sheep are now all made alive caught up together with those sheep who are still alive at His coming and given new glorified bodies and are now with the Lord forever, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. The goats are still at His left hand when Satan is loosed for a time as he sends his army of angels to surround the camp of the saints, but they are devoured by fire that God sends down from heaven and Satan is then cast into the lake of fire. Those who have rejected Christ, being the goats that are told to stand at the left hand of Christ, Matthew 25:31-34, 44-46 will then at that moment stand in Gods great white throne judgement and will also be cast into the lake of fire as their names are not written in the book of life.

 

[Randy]

Why would the beast and his army destroy that which is theirs as being mystery Babylon as it is Christ who reveals it and destroys it,

Because I read it.

Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

babylon the great

the mother of prostitutes

and of the abominations of the earth.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority,until God’s words are fulfilled.18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

 

[for_his_glory]

Randy, you said: And it is the beast and his armies that destroy babylon and in turn that beast is destroyed by a "coming" of the Lord. Rev 16:15 I would state 2nd coming.

I replied: Why would the beast and his army destroy that which is theirs as being mystery Babylon as it is Christ who reveals it and destroys it, Rev 17,18 . That would be like Satan coming against himself to destroy himself, Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

In a sense you are right about the beast and his army destroying mystery Babylon, but not in the way you might think. It's because of the beast who opposes God and persecutes His people that she will be destroyed.

Rev 17:7,8 The mystery of the woman is now revealed to John as being the Babylonian Empire in his time. The same Empire that in time became the Roman Empire that has captured John and sent him to the isle of Patmos as a prisoner for preaching the word of God to the seven Churches in Asia. The same Empire that have always persecuted, even to death, the saints, the Prophets, the Apostles and even Christ.

The beast, being Satan, has always controlled the seven heads and ten nations as he works through those to kill, steal and destroy that which is God’s. We read back in Chapter 13 about the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth and who the son of perdition is as being Satan who works through the Luciferians religious system with their Jesuit Militant Priesthood and their false prophet being the Pontifex Maximus.

The beast that was and is not and yet is started with Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon continuing with all the imperial kings, pharaohs and Roman Caesars that claimed to be priest/god/kings and held the official office and title of Pontifex Maximus who commands worship from their subjects.

These are the ten horns/ten kings in Rev 17:12 that have not received there kingdoms yet, but only receive power from the beast for a short time:
Kingdom 1: Canada, Mexico and the United States of America
Kingdom 2: European Union – Western Europe
Kingdom 3: Japan
Kingdom 4: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Israel and Pacific Islands
Kingdom 5: Eastern Europe
Kingdom 6: Latin America, Central and South America
Kingdom 7: North Africa and the Middle East
Kingdom 8: Central Africa
Kingdom 9: South and Southeast Asia
Kingdom 10: Central Asia

The ten horns are ten kings who have not yet received their kingdoms as the New World Order Headquarters and the United Nations Organization, One Security Council that claims authority over the world are waiting for ten permanent members. In 2009 the UNO divided the world into ten economic regions and each one will have a Jesuit Provincial set over them, but their end will come with the glory of the Lord striking them down when He returns with us His army, Rev 19.

Rev 17:15-18 notice it is not the beast that destroys mystery Babylon, but for the sake of those who are of God that hate the whore and have been taken captive by her are fulfilling Gods will as to not to fight against her, but to wait and allow them to do what they will until God's fulfillment which is God destroying her as the saints that have been taken captive by her that have not died a martyr's death need to continue their witness and testimony to those who have yet to repent, but will finally have ears to hear the Gospel being preached to them.

 

[Randy]

I still believe, as I stated from what I read in the testimony, that it is the beast that destroys the future babylon (city) with fire. God puts it in their hearts to accomplish "His" purpose as I read. So in that sense the judgment is coming from God. (smile) For in those days, (after the last warning before the great tribulation-Rev 11), Gods judgment comes upon the whole world. And if anyone had a shred of faith and/or love of God in those days they would have believed the powerful witness of Rev 11. But as we read many took joy in their deaths. So be it God will show Himself Holy in the end. We also read even as God pours out His wrath the people still don't repent rather they curse God who has their lives in His hands.

Randy

 

[JLB]

These are the ten horns/ten kings in Rev 17:12 that have not received there kingdoms yet, but only receive power from the beast for a short time:
Kingdom 1: Canada, Mexico and the United States of America
Kingdom 2: European Union – Western Europe
Kingdom 3: Japan
Kingdom 4: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Israel and Pacific Islands
Kingdom 5: Eastern Europe
Kingdom 6: Latin America, Central and South America
Kingdom 7: North Africa and the Middle East
Kingdom 8: Central Africa
Kingdom 9: South and Southeast Asia
Kingdom 10: Central Asia

 

[for_his_glory]

I still believe, as I stated from what I read in the testimony, that it is the beast that destroys the future babylon (city) with fire. God puts it in their hearts to accomplish "His" purpose as I read. So in that sense the judgment is coming from God. (smile) For in those days, (after the last warning before the great tribulation-Rev 11), Gods judgment comes upon the whole world. And if anyone had a shred of faith and/or love of God in those days they would have believed the powerful witness of Rev 11. But as we read many took joy in their deaths. So be it God will show Himself Holy in the end. We also read even as God pours out His wrath the people still don't repent rather they curse God who has their lives in His hands.

Randy

Can you tell me who this beast is will destroy mystery Babylon? Maybe we can discuss from there.

 

[Sinthesis]

Rev 17:7,8 The mystery of the woman is now revealed to John as being the Babylonian Empire in his time. The same Empire that in time became the Roman Empire that has captured John and sent him to the isle of Patmos as a prisoner for preaching the word of God to the seven Churches in Asia. The same Empire that have always persecuted, even to death, the saints, the Prophets, the Apostles and even Christ.

Exactly which biblical prophets were persecuted, even to death, by your 'Empire'?

 

[for_his_glory]

Exactly which biblical prophets were persecuted, even to death, by your 'Empire'?

OT Prophets:
Isaiah: said to be of Jerusalem, suffered martyrdom by being sawed in two by Manasseh (in agreement with the Martyrdom of Isaiah), buried near a place usually identified by scholars as the Pool of Siloam.

Jeremiah: said to be of Anathoth (Jeremiah 1:1), suffered martyrdom by stoning at Tahpanhes in Ancient Egypt where he was also buried.

Ezekiel: said to be of Arira and to be of a priesthood family. He suffered martyrdom in the land of the Chaldeans and was buried in the grave of Shem and Arpachshad.

Micah: said to be of the Tribe of Ephraim. He suffered martyrdom by Jehoram and buried in his land near the cemetery of the Anakim.

Amos: said to be born in Tekoa (Amos 1:1), tortured by Amaziah (the priest of Beth-el of Amos 7:10) and martyred by the son of this one. He laid in his birth-land.

Zechariah ben Jehoiada (2 Chronicles 24:20-22): said to be of Jerusalem, he was killed by Jehoash near the altar of the Temple. He was buried near his father Jehoiada.

NT Apostles:
Peter, James, Andrew, Thomas, Jude

The Inquisition - Roman rule from 538 AD with Emperor Justinian’s decree and under the military protection of Belisarius until the deadly wound came in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. This was the time when Roman Empire persecuted the Christians and killed them which were approximately 500 million people slain for the cause of their faith in Jesus.

The great annihilation of the Jews under Hitler’s reign from 1941 through 1945 killing over six million Jews and burning Bibles written in other languages so the Roman rule could retain control teaching their heresies.

Even today many are made martyr's by the hand of mystery Babylon and will continue to be so until Christ returns.

You might want to pick up a copy of Fox's Book of Martyr's as there are to many to name them all.

 

[Sinthesis]

Exactly which biblical prophets were persecuted, even to death, by your 'Empire'?

Isaiah: said to be of Jerusalem, suffered martyrdom by being sawed in two by Manasseh (in agreement with the Martyrdom of Isaiah), buried near a place usually identified by scholars as the Pool of Siloam.

That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.

Jeremiah: said to be of Anathoth (Jeremiah 1:1), suffered martyrdom by stoning at Tahpanhes in Ancient Egypt where he was also buried.

That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.

Ezekiel: said to be of Arira and to be of a priesthood family. He suffered martyrdom in the land of the Chaldeans and was buried in the grave of Shem and Arpachshad.

That could be the Babylonian Empire. Killed by who exactly? What is your source?

Micah: said to be of the Tribe of Ephraim. He suffered martyrdom by Jehoram and buried in his land near the cemetery of the Anakim.

That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.

Amos: said to be born in Tekoa (Amos 1:1), tortured by Amaziah (the priest of Beth-el of Amos 7:10) and martyred by the son of this one. He laid in his birth-land.

That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.

Zechariah ben Jehoiada (2 Chronicles 24:20-22): said to be of Jerusalem, he was killed by Jehoash near the altar of the Temple. He was buried near his father Jehoiada.

That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.

 

[for_his_glory]

Exactly which biblical prophets were persecuted, even to death, by your 'Empire'?


That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.


That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.


That could be the Babylonian Empire. Killed by who exactly? What is your source?


That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.


That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.


That wasn't the Babylonian Empire.

In Rev Chapter 17 and 18 you have to learn who mystery Babylon was in the NT in John's day and who it still is until the end of days that have and still are persecuting those who are of Christ who carry their witness and testimony throughout the world as I have shared this in post #1426.

Rev 12 this red dragon we read of is depicted as having seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The last kingdom which stands greater than all the others is that of a revived Roman Empire that takes control over all the ten nations who then implements a deceiving peace treaty to a world that is in great distress. Below is that of the seven kingdoms described as four beasts in Daniel 7:1-8 and the three kingdoms that were subdued by the little horn, which is the Roman Empire.

The three kingdoms that were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:24 are the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths who were eliminated by the year 538 AD under the leadership of the Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian whose deadly wound came in 1798. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to the Pope and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty. Today the Vatican has formal diplomatic relations with almost every country in the world. We will study this more in Chapter 13.

The four beast the seven remaining nations that still exist today:
Babylonian Empire:
(Iraq) The lion represents the winged lions that guarded the royal places of Babylon.

Medo – Persian Empire:
(Iran) The ribs of the bear are part of the consuming greed that devours the first empire.

Grecian Empire:
(Greece, Turkey, Syria, Egypt) Four wings of the leopard described the swiftness of this empire that ran from 334-331BC. It wrestled world dominion from Medo-Persia. After the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was divided into four minor kingdoms that continued as prominent factors in world politics until the Roman Empire gathered it back as one kingdom.

Roman Empire: (little horn, Daniel 8:9-14, 23-27)
Iron represents the stronghold this nation had. Daniel chapter 2 mentions the iron element of this empire that it to will be divided and broken as God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed.

The crowns on its heads show that this dragon claims royal authority against the true King who is God of all creation as he prepares to take his seat above all that which is Gods Kingdom claiming he is God as he prepares to deceive the world through that of an existing Roman Empire, Daniel 8:9-12; Isaiah 14:12-15.

 

[Randy]

Can you tell me who this beast is will destroy mystery Babylon? Maybe we can discuss from there.

The one who kills the two witnesses. So no one can name that person yet.

 

[for_his_glory]

The one who kills the two witnesses. So no one can name that person yet.

We can name that person as it is the son of perdition/false prophet of the revived Roman Empire that has always persecuted even to death all those who are of God and will continue to do so until the return of Christ, John 17:6-12; 2Thessalonians 2:1-7; Rev 13.

Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8. Only God can give power to act on His word as the Holy Spirit and Jesus bare witness to Gods power and authority especially through signs and wonders.

John is given the understanding that the two witnesses are in comparison to the two candlesticks and two olive trees, which if you read Zechariah Chapter 4 it explains that the golden candlestick is God. The seven lamps with the seven pipes that holds the oil (anointing) is that of the seven Spirits of God given to His Church: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and Spirit of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2.

The two olive trees are to groups of people. One group being natural Israel (Old Testament) as a remnant according to the election of grace have been saved as in the 144,000 taken from the twelve tribes of Israel that remained faithful to God up to a thousand generations thereafter that remain faithful, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17. The other being Gentiles (New Testament) grafted into the branch by that same grace of God that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by His Holy Spirit, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Romans Chapter 11. The two witnesses have always been the faithful Jews first and then the faithful Gentiles that have been grafted into the vine that is Christ Jesus.

There is a theory that the two witnesses could either be Moses, Elijah or Enoch, but scripture disputes this theory. Deuteronomy 34:5, 6 says Moses died in the land of Moab. Elijah was carried away in a whirlwind as described in 2 Kings 2:11 and lifted up to the first heaven meaning the firmament as in the atmosphere that surrounds the earth. He was only translated to an unknown area on earth as several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him, 2 Chronicles 21:12. Paul says Enoch died in faith just as Abel, Noah, Abraham and their wives, Hebrews 11:5, 6, 13, but had not yet received the promise of eternal life as they also sleep in the grave until the coming of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Hebrews 11:13 Paul said Enoch was only translated and never said he was taken to heaven and lived to be around three hundred and sixty five.

In John 3:13 Jesus said that no one has ever ascended up to heaven so this proves that the two witnesses are not Moses, Elijah or Enoch. God said in Malachi 4:5 He would send Elijah (Elias) before the great and terrible day of the Lord. John the Baptist is a type of Elijah as a forerunner for Jesus, John 1:15-17, just as Jesus was speaking about John the Baptist in Matthew 17:12 those who carry the witness and testimony of Jesus throughout the nations from the time of the cross to that of the great and terrible day of the Lord are also types of Elijah. The two witnesses are the word of God and the Holy Spirit that confirms His word.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Okay, I stand amazed! How long will the rest of you contend over what will be, on God's timeline, and do so knowing your opinion matters not? This is proof of vanity so how much longer will you all ignore the wisdom of Proverbs and work to prove foolishness?

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay, I stand amazed! How long will the rest of you contend over what will be, on God's timeline, and do so knowing your opinion matters not? This is proof of vanity so how much longer will you all ignore the wisdom of Proverbs and work to prove foolishness?

It may be foolishness in your eyes and yes somethings can become foolishness at times, but I take what God has already said what to watch for very seriously as it is wisdom and understanding so we are not taken as a thief in the night. Opinions only occur when scripture is not presented so another can go study them or that man has learned from man, but neglect what scripture truly says as they would rather believe their Pastor than taking the time to search out what God has already said. This stands for anything we learn in scripture from Genesis to Revelations.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It may be foolishness in your eyes and yes somethings can become foolishness at times, but I take what God has already said what to watch for very seriously as it is wisdom and understanding so we are not taken as a thief in the night.

1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

To ddebate for more than a moment is foolishness in this case. Our God given purpose is found in the last three verses of Matthew and this, very, minor issue, the timing, is utter foolishness and a Satan delighting endeavor. God wants the best for us and if we understand the Rapture will occur, when does not matter!

 

[Douglas Summers]

Okay, I stand amazed! How long will the rest of you contend over what will be, on God's timeline, and do so knowing your opinion matters not? This is proof of vanity so how much longer will you all ignore the wisdom of Proverbs and work to prove foolishness?

Thanks Bill, I thought I was the only one that felt the Spirit shunning such predictions.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thanks Bill, I thought I was the only one that felt the Spirit shunning such predictions.

No, Douglas, and I may get into trouble here but I am going to be honest. Many people on the Church Registries will not go into eternity through the Narrow Gate because of pretense. The Holy Spirit taught me this some time ago and many pretenders have rebuked me because they have not reached the same conclusion on their own.

Early in this string, I stated my position and asI recall it, I said then it is a fools folly to debate this because, if for no other reason, the Saved will be raptured and they will be raptured regardless of their preferences.

As Christ followers we have an, often repeated, example of what we are to endeavor to become. Pretenders miss this lesson, however, because, like it or not, the Scriptures are a great mystery to the natural man. (Eph 5:31-32)

Before I was saved I owned a KJV and it was as if I read gibberish. But the very night the Holy Spirit entered into my being that book read as though it were an old and familiar novel. To this day, students have major issues understanding the concepts from reading scripture alone. These are not indwelt with the holy Spirt but because of a handful of teachers that are they are able to pretend and fool the humans but they think they are safe. Until they are judged they can fool themselves and that is sad.