Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[smaller]

Wow, of course it's not a sea monster or a literal women riding on it, but if you do not know who the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth are then you could possibly be deceived by them.

You reject a sea monster with 10 heads and a woman riding it, yet insist on a literal atmosphere meeting? What can I say to that other than it's convenient to switch back and forth.

 

[for_his_glory]

Never said otherwise. We already know where Jesus will be revealed.

IN US.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Obviously you have no interest in seeing what scripture has to say about 'air' from the previous scriptures provided and prefer a fairy tale in their stead.

Jesus is already revealed in us and is not a future event, but at His coming every eye, sinner and saint will see Him in all His glory, Rev I:7, John 17:23; Romans 8:10; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 3:17,18; 1John 3:24

The other scripture you gave in Ephesians 2:2, and not sure which verse in Mark 4 as you never gave that, has nothing to do with Jesus, but is only speaking of Satan who is the prince of the power of the air as he travels between heaven and earth, Job 1:7; Rev 12:10.

 

[for_his_glory]

You reject a sea monster with 10 heads and a woman riding it, yet insist on a literal atmosphere meeting? What can I say to that other than it's convenient to switch back and forth.

A few of us have given you all those scriptures about Rev 13 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, but yet you reject them like they do not even exist so that is your choice of what you want to believe.

 

[smaller]

Jesus is already revealed in us and is not a future event,

Uh, no.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The other scripture you gave in Ephesians 2:2, and not sure which verse in Mark 4 as you never gave that, has nothing to do with Jesus,

Scripture has nothing to do with Jesus? Are you sure you want to go there?

Yeah, both Mark 4 and Eph. 2:2 show us what air is about. It ain't about the atmosphere.

but is only speaking of Satan who is the prince of the power of the air as he travels between heaven and earth, Job 1:7; Rev 12:10.

So, can we look into the physical atmosphere, the AIR, and see Satan??? I hope we'd agree how preposterous that is. And yes, Mark 4 speaks to the same matter, about "air." NOT the physical atmosphere.

 

[smaller]

A few of us have given you all those scriptures about Rev 13 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, but yet you reject them like they do not even exist so that is your choice of what you want to believe.

I don't reject any scripture. I do reject notions that can't harmonize them. And that problem is particularly rife about being caught up in the physical atmosphere when it has absolutely zero to do with same and we are shown otherwise by scripture.

 

[JLB]

I read the fine print.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

What does this have to do with the Church being caught up in the air to meet the Lord, externally.

This doesn't happen "internally" as you stated, but externally for all to see.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


Read these words, for they describe what will happen externally, not internally.

...caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


JLB

 

[smaller]

What does this have to do with the Church being caught up in the air to meet the Lord, externally.

Who says it's flying away into the "atmosphere/air?" Already noted a few times now that "air" in scripture is not necessarily the atmosphere/air we breathe. See Mark 4 and Eph. 2:2 for the most obvious examples of not atmosphere/air deployed in scripture.

This doesn't happen "internally" as you stated, but externally for all to see.

It would be nice if people who think that these matters are all external literal physical details had a better understanding of scripture.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Are the references to heart, eyes and ears above literal physical heart, eyes and ears? Allow me to answer the obvious. Uh, no.

So why is it that you can't even grasp the simple stuff, yet alone the more complex matters?

And IF these are not literal heart, EYES and ears, what makes you think you really see all that well?

Do we see with our flesh eyes, the evil eye?

Proverbs 23:6
Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

Here we are told what an evil eye really is:

Proverbs 28:22
He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Wanna see more eye stuff? Gotta listen and pay attention.

 

[JLB]

Who says it's flying away into the "atmosphere/air?" Already noted a few times now that "air" in scripture is not necessarily the atmosphere/air we breathe. See Mark 4 and Eph. 2:2 for the most obvious examples of not atmosphere/air deployed in scripture.


It would be nice if people who think that these matters are all external literal physical details had a better understanding of scripture.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Are the references to heart, eyes and ears above literal physical heart, eyes and ears? Allow me to answer the obvious. Uh, no.

So why is it that you can't even grasp the simple stuff, yet alone the more complex matters?

And IF these are not literal heart, EYES and ears, what makes you think you really see all that well?

Do we see with our flesh eyes, the evil eye?

Proverbs 23:6
Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:

Here we are told what an evil eye really is:

Proverbs 28:22
He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Wanna see more eye stuff? Gotta listen and pay attention.

None of these scriptures have a single thing to do with the coming of the Lord, whereby every eye will see Him.

As the angel plainly said to the Apostles as they watched Him go to heaven externally.

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”


JLB

 

[smaller]

None of these scriptures have a single thing to do with the coming of the Lord, whereby every eye will see Him.

What "eyes" are being spoken of here?

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Fairly certain that the physical eyes of the physical persons who pierced him turned to dust quite some time ago.

As the angel plainly said to the Apostles as they watched Him go to heaven externally.

Apparently "heaven" to you is the air/atmosphere above our heads. We can look up and see it. Or perhaps it is on the planet Kolub if we go far enough "up?"

 

[Sinthesis]

Everything is crucial to our learning so we will not be deceived. Many say "Well we'll wait til the end and see who is right or wrong". Sorry, it will be to late in the end when Christ comes back. This is why it is so important to not put off Salvation till later for no one knows when Christ will return other then it will be on the last day.

Who is promoting the idea of putting off Salvation? Do you honestly believe you can learn to not be deceived about Endtimes?

 

[Sinthesis]

Really? So you think it was frivolous for the Lord to send out the Disciples to preach the Gospel truth and doctrines concerning the calling and election of His Body....The pillars of truth! (Ephesians Chapter 3) for starters. Then study the Acts of the Apostles through the Revelation of Jesus Christ. You must be born again! Correcting false teachings is not arguing. The arguing comes from those who will not believe the Truth.

A lot of what Christians argue about is frivolous. Christians arguing about Endtimes usually features false teachings on both sides. It doesn't mean they aren't Saved.

 

[JLB]

What "eyes" are being spoken of here?

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Fairly certain that the physical eyes of the physical persons who pierced him turned to dust quite some time ago.


Apparently "heaven" to you is the air/atmosphere above our heads. We can look up and see it. Or perhaps it is on the planet Kolub if we go far enough "up?"

The people who are in Jerusalem will see Him and mourn.

They will see Him with their eyes; Externally.

With their physical eyes, they will see Jesus coming in the clouds.

They will not have been turned to dust, as you say.

He will pour out on them the Spirit of grace and supplication.

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14

Just as Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse:

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

Just as they were instructed Jesus would return in like manner as they saw Him go. Externally.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

They saw Him go externally.



JLB

 

[reba]

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
this verse says plainly "to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. " as the verse states shouldn't we always be in the air with the Lord?

 

[smaller]

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
this verse says plainly "to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. " as the verse states shouldn't we always be in the air with the Lord?

Brilliant deduction Reba. The air in scriptural understandings is in fact "internal," in our minds and hearts. And we perceive the things/matters of God with hearts, eyes and ears that are not physical literal attributes. The flesh-external understandings are subservient-lesser forms of understandings.

And that is what the dime store novels about end times have sold the masses of christianity and programmed their flesh to see it that way.

 

[reba]

I strongly believe God wrote the Scriptures the way He did knowing we some day have 'forums' to post in. ..

 

[smaller]

The people who are in Jerusalem will see Him and mourn.

They will see Him with their eyes; Externally.

With their physical eyes, they will see Jesus coming in the clouds.

They will not have been turned to dust, as you say.

Oh, I'm beyond certain that those who pierced him as it relates to the "flesh men" are long dead and their eyes returned to the dust from whence they came.

Yet we find this statement in Rev. 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[JLB]

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
this verse says plainly "to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. " as the verse states shouldn't we always be in the air with the Lord?

What would lead you to believe, if we are caught up together, to meet the Lord in the air, that we will always be in the air?

Jesus is descending from Heaven to earth, to take His place as King over the whole earth in Jerusalem.

• His feet will stand on the mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:1-4

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east. Zechariah 14:1-4

• He will reign and rule from Jerusalem as King:

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:16-17

• He will sit on His Throne to judge the nations, when He comes:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32



The Point: When Jesus descends from heaven to earth, to Jerusalem, the city of the great King, He will gather all His people together, both those who are in heaven and those who are alive and remain on earth, in the air, on His way down, to takes His place on His throne in Jerusalem, to reign and rule as King over the earth, from the city of the great King.


Hear the instructions of the angel who was with the Apostles, when Jesus ascended to heaven from Jerusalem:

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father,“which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:4-11



JLB

 

[reba]

What would lead you to believe, if we are caught up together, to meet the Lord in the air, that we will always be in the air?

doesn't the verse say and so shall we ever be with the Lord?

Did i say i believed it?

 

[JLB]

Oh, I'm beyond certain that those who pierced him as it relates to the "flesh men" are long dead and their eyes returned to the dust from whence they came.

Yet we find this statement in Rev. 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Those who pierced Him were the Jews.
The Jews will see Him and mourn.

I personally believe that every eye will see Him, those on earth, those under the earth and those in heaven.

The will see Him externally, not internally within, for those in the heart of the earth do not have Him within.

All will see Him when He comes in all His glory.



JLB

 

[JLB]

doesn't the verse say and so shall we ever be with the Lord?

Yes.

Do you believe the Lord will stop in the air forever when He descends from Heaven?