Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[williamt]

How do you interpret Revelation 20:5- 7" But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, this is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

Study Note:
The language concerning the second death in verse 6,14, and 21:8 suggests a contrast between the first death and the second. The first death is bodily death, but it is only preliminary, not ultimate. The second death is ultimate and spiritual in character. Likewise, the first and second resurrections may be preliminary and ultimate, respectively. The first is spiritual, the second is of the body. The first resurrection is then to be understood as coinciding either with spiritual new birth John 5:24-25 or, more likely, with going to be with Christ at the time of bodily death Revelation 6:9-10; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Phil 1:23.

In Christ, people from all nations now share in the priestly privileges given to Israel. The purposes of redemption that are seen in the exodus from Egypt and the purposes of dominion given to humanity at creation are both fulfilled through Christ.

God bless,
William

 

[JLB]

How do you interpret Revelation 20:5- 7" But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, this is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6

Those who were faithful during the tribulation, who did not worship the beast or take his mark, lived and reigned with Christ for a thousands years.

Those who have their part in this resurrection, the second death has no power.


7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:7-10

After the thousand years, Satan will be released to go out and deceive the nations, who will surround Jerusalem where the saints are.
There will be destroyed by fire from God.

Then at that time the devil will be cast into the lake of fire, where the beast and false profit are, who had been cast there when Jesus first returned, a thousand years earlier.

20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

I may seem to be an ultra-literalist, but the Gentiles are grafted into the root, not into the branch or a branch of Israel. In verse 17 of Romans 11 it states; " and if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree." This tells me that the Jews, all of them, are God's covenant people.

Jeremiah 3:8; Galatians 3:28,29; Rev 7:1-8

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshipping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshipping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10. The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation chapter 4- 20:6 is Christ opening up the title deed to world, which is rightfully his. Satan, in the garden of Eden, stole if from the first Adam and now the last Adam is redeeming it in Revelation.

Rev Chapter 4 has nothing to do with the saints being caught up to meet Christ in the air. What is taking place is that after the seven angels have spoken to the seven Churches John visions a door opening up in heaven and hears a voice speak to him to come up as the angel has been prepared to show him all things that must come in the future. John did not literally go up to heaven, but was in the Spirit immediately after hearing the voice speak to him. This was the beginning of all the visions he would be shown starting with the vision of the Throne room of God in Chapter 4.

Rev 20:6 is after Satan being bound for a time as now the resurrection (Rapture) of he saints has come as the angels are sent out to the four corners of the earth to gather all the saints of God together, Matthew 24:29-31; 1Corinthians 15:51-57; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

 

[smaller]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

I may seem to be an ultra-literalist, but the Gentiles are grafted into the root, not into the branch or a branch of Israel. In verse 17 of Romans 11 it states; " and if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree." This tells me that the Jews, all of them, are God's covenant people.

The people of Israel are a very deep subject in the scriptures, and show us many things.

It is perhaps important to recognize many things about them. God has definitely NOT abandoned a single one of them. No way that happened.

They were however purposefully BLINDED by God Himself, who put upon them a "spirit" of slumber/stupor so they could not see. Romans 11:8. And this, in our (gentile) behalves. How then should we look upon them, even in their unbelief? With the Mercy of God in Christ, as we have (supposedly) received. Romans 11:31. Believers who show them no mercy have perhaps forgotten what they received in Christ for themselves, namely HIS MERCY.

So, who is really remaining in the equations that almost everyone forgets to observe?

The spirit of slumber that is not Israel. The same spirit that is put upon ALL unbelievers. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and that was even upon us all prior to belief in Christ ala Eph. 2:2.

At thee infamous end, God is going to destroy the covering/coverer of the Mercy Seat, the covering cherub, that wicked messenger who BLOCKS people's sights. Isaiah 25:7, Ezekiel 28:16.

And His Mercy Will Have Entire Reign, as the scriptures have spoken, and THIS is the flood that Jesus Spoke of that will come, at thee end of this wicked/evil age:

Isaiah 54:
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

None of the above is going to transpire in some brick and mortar job in Jerusalem, nor will there be some flesh man/anti-Christ.

The "temple(s)" being cleansed at the end are in fact "our own." In our own body, individually and collectively. There will be no catching away. There will be the destruction of our enemies, INTERNAL. For an inside look at these enemies of the temple/temporal body, see Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17, Phil. 3:21 as the easier examples. And don't expect the flesh to receive any of this.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Study Note:
The language concerning the second death in verse 6,14, and 21:8 suggests a contrast between the first death and the second. The first death is bodily death, but it is only preliminary, not ultimate. The second death is ultimate and spiritual in character. Likewise, the first and second resurrections may be preliminary and ultimate, respectively. The first is spiritual, the second is of the body. The first resurrection is then to be understood as coinciding either with spiritual new birth John 5:24-25 or, more likely, with going to be with Christ at the time of bodily death Revelation 6:9-10; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Phil 1:23.

In Christ, people from all nations now share in the priestly privileges given to Israel. The purposes of redemption that are seen in the exodus from Egypt and the purposes of dominion given to humanity at creation are both fulfilled through Christ.

God bless,
William

hello williamt, dirtfarmer here

I didn't mean to ignore you, but have been trying to understand your answer.

It is my belief that physical death only has reference to "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." So with this in mind it is how we are in relationship to God at the point of death as to where we will spend eternity. While we are alive physically, we have a choice, believe or not believe, this is the only thing that we have a choice about.

If we are in unbelief at the point of physical death, we will have no part in any of God's plan except eternal damnation in the lake of fire. If, in our physical life we believe God's report of salvation in Christ Jesus, then we will spend eternity as the bride of Christ. It is my belief that every one that has an earthly father and mother is born a sinner.

Does not John 5:24 say that any one who hears and believes has (now) everlasting life and has passed from death unto life? So this tells us that our destiny is sealed in this life(physical).

The thing that I keep stating is salvation has 3 parts.
1- We are saved from the penalty of sin. now
2- We are saved from the power of sin. now
3- at the resurrection, we will be saved from the presence of sin. future. This is shown by 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23

I know that Israel is to be a "kingdom of Priests", but where is reference in scripture that the Gentiles are also to be a kingdom of Priest?

As to dominion given to Adam at creation, his will was to be accomplished in all the earth as God's is in all creation.

 

[dirtfarmer]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4-6

Those who were faithful during the tribulation, who did not worship the beast or take his mark, lived and reigned with Christ for a thousands years.

Those who have their part in this resurrection, the second death has no power.


7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:7-10

After the thousand years, Satan will be released to go out and deceive the nations, who will surround Jerusalem where the saints are.
There will be destroyed by fire from God.

Then at that time the devil will be cast into the lake of fire, where the beast and false profit are, who had been cast there when Jesus first returned, a thousand years earlier.

20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Jeremiah 3:8; Galatians 3:28,29; Rev 7:1-8

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshipping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar and taken into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshipping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10. The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

Romans 11:2 tells us that "God has not cast away his people."
Romans 11:5 tells us that there is still a remnant .

 

[dirtfarmer]

The people of Israel are a very deep subject in the scriptures, and show us many things.

It is perhaps important to recognize many things about them. God has definitely NOT abandoned a single one of them. No way that happened.

They were however purposefully BLINDED by God Himself, who put upon them a "spirit" of slumber/stupor so they could not see. Romans 11:8. And this, in our (gentile) behalves. How then should we look upon them, even in their unbelief? With the Mercy of God in Christ, as we have (supposedly) received. Romans 11:31. Believers who show them no mercy have perhaps forgotten what they received in Christ for themselves, namely HIS MERCY.

So, who is really remaining in the equations that almost everyone forgets to observe?

The spirit of slumber that is not Israel. The same spirit that is put upon ALL unbelievers. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and that was even upon us all prior to belief in Christ ala Eph. 2:2.

At thee infamous end, God is going to destroy the covering/coverer of the Mercy Seat, the covering cherub, that wicked messenger who BLOCKS people's sights. Isaiah 25:7, Ezekiel 28:16.

And His Mercy Will Have Entire Reign, as the scriptures have spoken, and THIS is the flood that Jesus Spoke of that will come, at thee end of this wicked/evil age:

Isaiah 54:
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

None of the above is going to transpire in some brick and mortar job in Jerusalem, nor will there be some flesh man/anti-Christ.

The "temple(s)" being cleansed at the end are in fact "our own." In our own body, individually and collectively. There will be no catching away. There will be the destruction of our enemies, INTERNAL. For an inside look at these enemies of the temple/temporal body, see Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17, Phil. 3:21 as the easier examples. And don't expect the flesh to receive any of this.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Romans 11:26-27 " And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins".

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here



hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

Romans 11:2 tells us that "God has not cast away his people."
Romans 11:5 tells us that there is still a remnant .

Read a little further...

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23



JLB

 

[JLB]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Romans 11:26-27 " And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins".

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, Romans 9:6


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Rev Chapter 4 has nothing to do with the saints being caught up to meet Christ in the air. What is taking place is that after the seven angels have spoken to the seven Churches John visions a door opening up in heaven and hears a voice speak to him to come up as the angel has been prepared to show him all things that must come in the future. John did not literally go up to heaven, but was in the Spirit immediately after hearing the voice speak to him. This was the beginning of all the visions he would be shown starting with the vision of the Throne room of God in Chapter 4.

Rev 20:6 is after Satan being bound for a time as now the resurrection (Rapture) of he saints has come as the angels are sent out to the four corners of the earth to gather all the saints of God together, Matthew 24:29-31; 1Corinthians 15:51-57; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

I agree that Revelation 4 has nothing to with the rapture of the Church.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the answer to one of the questions that was asked of Jesus, the sign of his coming. He doesn't answer "When shall these tings be?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Read a little further...

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The answer is found in v25; " Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."

Verse 26-27 states" And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Romans 11:26-27 " And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins".

Glad you see it, I think.

We might note that "all" of Israel is inclusive of [present tense] enemies of the Gospel at the time Paul penned those inspired Words, not just future tense, but ALL of Israel past/present/future, who are saved for the sake of others, their fathers, presumably Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, especially so since Jacob is specifically referenced.

 

[dirtfarmer]

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, Romans 9:6


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Romans 9:6 is in reference to Ishmael being Abraham's son of the flesh when he tried to help God

Galatians 4:23 " But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise."

Galatians 4:29 " Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise".

Romans 9:7 " Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

 

[dirtfarmer]

Glad you see it, I think.

We might note that "all" of Israel is inclusive of [present tense] enemies of the Gospel at the time Paul penned those inspired Words, not just future tense, but ALL of Israel past/present/future, who are saved for the sake of others, their fathers, presumably Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, especially so since Jacob is specifically referenced.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I don't believe that all Israel (past and present) will receive salvation at the end. Only those of faith in a coming redeemer(past) and those of faith now(present) have been or are saved. The "all Israel" that will be saved are those during the tribulation period which come to know and realize that Jesus was not just messiah, but is the Son of God that takes away the sin of the world. My belief that the 12,000 (144,000) from each tribe that are sealed will be the "all Israel" that will be saved and become the kingdom of priests and will the ones that will accomplish Matthew 28:19-20: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[williamt]

Just putting this in here:

 

[JLB]

Romans 9:6 is in reference to Ishmael being Abraham's son of the flesh when he tried to help God

No sir.

The point is not all who are Israel [after the flesh] are Israel.

Christ Jesus is the True Israel of God.

Those who are in Covenant with Christ, the True Israel are Israel [the true Israel of God].

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.


6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man,even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Romans 9:1-13

Paul is showing the election of God according to purpose. Christ is the eternal purpose of God.

He shows the lineage whom God would use to bring the Messiah into the world was through the descendant's of Abraham, but more specifically through the children of promise, that is to say, those whom God choose... Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then Judah.

In the middle of this discourse Paul, makes his statement... For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.

Ishmael was Abraham's son, not Jacob's [Israel].

Christ is the Israel of God, and those who are joined to him in covenant relationship are the Israel of God.

Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. Exodus 4:22

“When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. Hosea 11:1

These are prophetic references to Christ, God's Firstborn... meaning these references in the old testament pointed to Christ, as God's firstborn Son.


13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”
14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”
Matthew 2:13-15



JLB

 

[JLB]

Just putting this in here:

Just putting this in here,



Abraham was the first member of the Church.


JLB

 

[smaller]

I don't believe that all Israel (past and present) will receive salvation at the end. Only those of faith in a coming redeemer(past) and those of faith now(present) have been or are saved. The "all Israel" that will be saved are those during the tribulation period

Well, the above is a common sight but it can't line up to what Paul said here:

Romans 11:
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

This can't refer to "future tense" enemies. ARE is a present tense fact. It was applicable to all past enemies as well as present and will also apply to future tense to complete the "all" statement of fact from Paul, not losing a single one of them.

God quite purposefully, Himself, blinded them. Romans 11:8. In our behalves. Romans 11:30.

We are allowed only ONE posture as believers, toward them. MERCY.

 

[williamt]

Just putting this in here,



Abraham was the first member of the Church.


JLB

by faith? I wouldn't mind you expounding on your statement.

What I am curious about, if by faith, who received before Abraham Genesis 3:15 by faith:

I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspringa]" and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”

God bless,
William