In your estimation, which church manifests the "revelatory gifts" of tongues, prophecy and supernatural knowledge, that is without any doubt "of God"?
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"Spirits will speak through your own inner voice, or more likely, they will just throw ideas into your mind"
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
You speak of tongues as though you believe it continued from the first century until today.
But how can that be?
The "Twelve Apostles" who saw the risen Christ after His resurrection, didn't continue from the first century until today?
That means the "signs" that proved someone was one of the Twelve apostles didn't continue to today:
Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. (Acts 2:43 NKJ)
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. (2 Cor. 12:12 NKJ)
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)
You don't raise the dead, nor are your tongues understood like those spoken on Pentecost:
7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
8 "And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 "Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 "Cretans and Arabs-- we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. (Acts 2:7-11 NKJ)
So the 1st century gifts "revelatory gifts" of the Holy Spirit DO NOT exist today, that includes what you call tongues.
Actually, its deflection and misrepresentation to call what you believe about the gifts "continuism."
You don't have apostles writing Bible books, they have ceased writing in the first century.
What you believe should be called "novelism": the gifts are novel, not the same thing we see in the NT. They are different.
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Edward
2024 Supporter
I believe that you are being short sighted about it, Brother. You posted some good scriptures too and I'm not saying they are not true, however, I'll post a few myself for your perusal which may give you something to think about.
Mark 16:
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who [d]believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[e] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”.../
So Jesus spoke to His disciples after his resurection about signs, and, "those who Believe"
Granted many times in history after that it could be said, no one believes anymore...but that's not really true. Because there's always a remnant at least. So if signs and wonders went away with the Apostles then believers had to go away too.
John 14:
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you [c]ask anything in My name, I will do it.../
This is Jesus talking again... Jesus doesn't specify Apostles, He says "he who believes". That's me! That's You!
You should pray about if you should put more stock in people's testimony's.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Acts 2:17
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:.../
Are these the last days? Lol, that's rhetorical, we all know these are the last days! So even "If" signs did go away for awhile then they're coming back, even revelatory signs according to this scripture.
If you judge by all of the testimonies out nowadays and the varieties of race & cultures involved in them then it's an easy conclusion to reach that...God is Exploding all over the globe rght now! Healings, Tongues, dreams & visions, even a few Raised from the Dead Testimony's.
Now when I first started watching tesimony videos, I was scared of being deceived and all that. So I would always pray to the Lord to reveal to me if what I watching or hearing is the truth. Many times and nada lot happened at first, but then one day, I'm watching a vid, and something happened on my inside and it was intense. And I realized immediately what it was. It was the Lord signaling me that what I was watching was the truth.
I didn't know what to call it, so I likened it to being "Pinged" in my spirit sort of like how Submarines ping each other. And it started happening quite a lot! Over time I learned that this is really called a quickening of the spirit. Through this, I actually got better with my discernment. Sometimes I seem to be able to discern truth or lie pretty quickly, about certain things. I'm not claiming to be a master of discernment, lol!
These things are real Brother, and they are today. But don't believe me! Just do this thing, but before watching any testomonies, pray for the Holy Spirit's Guidance.
The Holy Spirit will do this for you. That is His job. So ask!
He even picks out videos for me to watch sometimes.
It is good to be well grounded in scripture like you say. But there is a lot of truth that is spoken outside of the scriptures also. Don't be short sighted Brother!
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:.../
Are these the last days? Lol, that's rhetorical, we all know these are the last days! So even "If" signs did go away for awhile then they're coming back, even revelatory signs according to this scripture.
If you judge by all of the testimonies out nowadays and the varieties of race & cultures involved in them then it's an easy conclusion to reach that...God is Exploding all over the globe rght now! Healings, Tongues, dreams & visions, even a few Raised from the Dead Testimony's.
Now when I first started watching tesimony videos, I was scared of being deceived and all that. So I would always pray to the Lord to reveal to me if what I watching or hearing is the truth. Many times and nada lot happened at first, but then one day, I'm watching a vid, and something happened on my inside and it was intense. And I realized immediately what it was. It was the Lord signaling me that what I was watching was the truth.
I didn't know what to call it, so I likened it to being "Pinged" in my spirit sort of like how Submarines ping each other. And it started happening quite a lot! Over time I learned that this is really called a quickening of the spirit. Through this, I actually got better with my discernment. Sometimes I seem to be able to discern truth or lie pretty quickly, about certain things. I'm not claiming to be a master of discernment, lol!
These things are real Brother, and they are today. But don't believe me! Just do this thing, but before watching any testomonies, pray for the Holy Spirit's Guidance.
The Holy Spirit will do this for you. That is His job. So ask!
He even picks out videos for me to watch sometimes.
It is good to be well grounded in scripture like you say. But there is a lot of truth that is spoken outside of the scriptures also. Don't be short sighted Brother!
Thanks Edward ! The testimony that Edward put up is much like what I have seen in the churches I have attended .
In Pentecostal churches I have seen the gift of tongues in proper usage as laid out by Paul . Most of the messages are an exhortation to the people there in church . Encouragement for God's people . And a sign to unbelievers .
Does God change ?
God does not change which is why the novelties you call "gifts", that differ greatly from what we see in the NT, can't be "from the God of the Bible."
Pentecostal tongues are never like this:
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. (Acts 2:1-3 NKJ)
Where is your video of that happening today?
Nor are your tongues like this:
8 "And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 "Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 "Cretans and Arabs-- we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."
(Acts 2:8-11 NKJ)
Where is the video of that happening today?
It don't happen today because Bible Tongues ceased in the 1st century.
Pentecostal tongues are babble. That linguists have documented over and over.
So God did not change, the novelty you call tongues are not from Him.
Where do they come from? Mainly, self taught ecstasy.
While it may feel feel good to let the brain babble in self generated ecstasy----that isn't a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Don't get me wrong. I don't care if you like to babble and get a psychological high from it, knock yourself out.
But they are not Bible tongues.
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That prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century:
And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen (Mk. 16:20 NKJ)
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)
No Pentecostal does greater works than Christ.
Nor do they even come close to doing what Christ did.
None walk on water or raise one dead days after rigor mortis set in as did Jesus with Lazarus.
If US Consumer Protection Law governed Pentecostal mislabeling of their novel prophecies and signs, as though they are the same as those in the NT, there would be a massive class action lawsuit for FRAUD bankrupting Pentecostal churches world wide.
Everyone of them are guilty of fraud.
Edward
2024 Supporter
I seem to be missing the part where it says it was fulfilled and therefore, over?
They went out and preached everywhere, the Lord was with them and working with them, and confirming all of His words with signs...
Nothing about it ending. That was a beginning my friend. The first of many and has continued to this day. God has done a lot o stuff for me, and He always confirms it, that it was Him. Always.
True, true. But, does God change? Why would God preferentially give healing to men of old but not to us nowadays? God is no respecter of persons, so I don't get it how that could be true.
Just because you haven't seen any big miracles happen does not mean that they do not happen and that everyone is a fraud! I have witnessed supernatural events myself plenty enough for myself to be horoughly convinced that, it is real. (Israel?) Is real. I have not witnessed the dead being raosed or the red sea parting, but enough. And when the Lord does something like that, a big miracle, He prefers to do it in front of a large crowd for the many conversions it will bring, so He's not big on magic shows, but when He does do supernatural things for people (me!), He confirms it, one way or the other. Not on videotape, He still wants us to have faith.
Blessed are those who have not seen, and believed!
So this creates a paradox. Which one is it? Either the scripture is wrong that says, these things I do and greater will you do...or. it just hasn't been all fulfilled yet like you said? Which one is it?
??
It’s the conclusion, it shows Christ's prophecy was fulfilled by the disciples in the first century. "They went out and preached", the verb ἐκήρυξαν is indicative aorist indicating time, it’s a snapshot of action that happened in the PAST:
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached (ἐκήρυξαν) everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. (Mk. 16:19-20 NKJ)
AND I am shocked you think Scripture (Christ in particular) possibly wrong. Clearly you are wrong, scripture is always 100% correct.
Christ is speaking to His disciples, not everyone. He speaks to Philip then to the other disciples. When Christ says "He who believes in ME" He is NOT speaking to you and me, He is speaking TO THEM:
He explained why THEY would do greater works than Him, BECAUSE "I go to My Father"
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say,`Show us the Father '?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. (Jn. 14:9-12 NKJ)
Peter did greater works of healing entire crowds, something Christ didn't do:
14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. (Acts 5:14-15 NKJ)
And the greatest miracle of the Christian faith is conversion, on the Day of Pentecost 3000 were saved. In contrast, after Christ fed thousands many turned from following Him:
21 Now those who had eaten were about five thousand men, besides women and children. (Matt. 14:21 NKJ)
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. (Jn. 6:66-68 NKJ)
The next time you read a text and believe it may be wrong, realize it is you who are misreading it.
Context is always the key to interpreting scripture correctly.
Pentecostals DO NOT do what Christ did, their alleged miracles signs and wonders are real snoozers compared to what Christ and His apostles did.
Pentecostal claim of continuance is a fraud. The NOVEL miracles signs and wonders are not those done by the apostles or Christ, they aren't even close.
AND the only prophecy Pentecostals are known for, is false prophecy. That characterizes their prophetic babble about each other and future events.
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What Pentecostal churches have you attended ?
Was it an "Assemblies Of God " , "Church Of God" or an independent Pentecostal church ?
What were the services like when you went there ?
Amen !
99.9% of my speaking in tongues is in prayer .
As I pray in tongues letting the Holy Spirit have the utterance here are two of the words that I understand that I have heard the Holy Spirit speak through me . Eli , Allah .
I have never once felt like I was babbling when I a was speaking in tongues . Why do you tell me I am babbling when I speak in tongues ?
The only difference between praying in tongues and speaking in tongues is the intended audience so the Holy Spirit tailors the message for it's intended purpose .
That's irrelevant. In Post #21 I asked you a simple question that gets to the heart of the matter:
In your estimation, which church manifests the "revelatory gifts" of tongues, prophecy and supernatural knowledge, that is without any doubt "of God"?
If follows any church manifesting the revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit will have a track record of prophecy we can inspect, and discern whether its been true or false prophecy:
"when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:22-19:1 NKJ)
Your experiences and beliefs are yours. They are not proof of anything to me. Scripture alone is my authority and judging by it, nothing Pentecostals do today is "the same as what happened in the NT."
For example, this does NOT happen in Pentecostal churches:
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
8 "And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 "Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 "Cretans and Arabs-- we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." (Acts 2:2-11 NKJ)
It is a fraud to advertise Pentecostal tongues as anything like that seen on the Day of Pentecost.
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My answer was in post #25 and here it is again . Notice the part in bold .
What have you , Alfred Persson seen in the Pentecostal church services that the Gift of Tongues was in evidence you have attended ?
I require objective proof of continuism.
I demand objective proof the "revelatory gifts" are in action today like they were in the days of the apostles.
Without that proof, Continuism is clearly a false teaching. A FRAUD.
Which Church is "the one" where the gifts of the Spirit are occurring today just like they did in the days of the apostles.
Its time to prove your case.
Your refusal to name the Church where the revelatory gifts are occurring today only confirms my stance against continuism..
Walls Chapel Church of God , do you need directions ?
Excellent. Now direct me to their "prophecies" that inform the body of Christ about the end times. About events BEFORE they happened. That is positive objective proof "they" have the "revelatory gifts of the Holy Spirit" just like the apostles:
10 And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
11 When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit,`So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'" (Acts 21:10-11 NKJ)
That happened. Paul ended up in Rome after being first bound by the Jews in Jerusalem.
If Walls Chapel Church of God has similar prophets who predict future events without fail, then I will agree continuism is a true doctrine.
Please understand, as a Bible Believer I know its fashionable FRAUDS claim to be like the apostles, but as Paul observes:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. (2 Cor. 11:13-15 NKJ)
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There are things that were said that I am not willing to put on here for the world at large to see .
Edward
2024 Supporter
Should I be shocked at your redirection here? I do not think Christ was wrong. I do not think scripture is wrong. But by your assertions that, the gifts have ceased with the Apostles, then you are the one who must think Christ wrong here. Because if that is true, then what else is or is not true? If they ceased, then they wouldn't be happening today. Then what greater things will we do that Jesus did? (In the end times like it says.)
Is that what is confusing me? That only a portion of the scriptures were written to me and you? Listen to what you are saying...What You say must agree with all scriptures or else you are wrong.
Am I not in Christ? Is Christ not in me? Christ in the Father? the Father in Christ? One faith, one baptism, one Spirit, one God?
So how can He not be talking about me? You? Everyone?
Should I stop praying Psalm 91 over my life? (It wasn't even to me, that was all about Jesus alone, right?
You believe as you choose to believe, so good luck with that. But don't put words in my mouth as if they were my own when they are not.
Christ spoke to His disciples, it was fulfilled by them in the 1st century. That is my answer to you.
Christians love printing and distributing Scripture, because it is the Word of God. If God continued speaking today as He did in the Bible, then Christians would love printing and distributing it.
The fact you are not willing to distribute their "prophetic word" indicates its not "the word of God" and therefore they do not prove "continuism" of the gifts.
Fact is, the absence of apostles and prophets in that church proves they are "cessationists", in deed if not in word.
You mistake me for someone who hasn't had incredible spiritual experiences, and still do.
The Holy Spirit rests upon the head and face of my inner man 24/7, like warm oil. He has never left me or forsaken me for over 40 years. Since being born again, I never looked back.
But I do NOT claim to be a prophet or anyone special.
God speaks to me through His Word the Bible, not in dreams visions voices etc.
So your "experiences" not only pale in comparison to mine, neither my or yours are proof of anything.
The Bible alone is the authority. This is a well known belief. Its called:
Sola scriptura: the Christian theological doctrine the Bible as the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.
Excerpt from my site: About Me
God the Holy Spirit fell upon me like a warm wind, filling my soul regenerating it. The washing of regeneration (Tit. 3:5) renewed my spirit (Rom. 8:16), not my flesh body or brain (Rom. 7:18). My soul, the “ghost operating the machine” became a partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). God breathed into my soul the “breath of lives” and the filling gave rise to a “new creature” (Gen. 2:7; 2 Cor. 5:17), risen from the dead in Christ Jesus my LORD (Rom. 6:4). Over forty years ago this happened, and never has the Spirit left or forsaken me. God is more real to me than anyone or anything existing.
So why reveal my conversion experience? As a Cessationist I can’t claim special revelation. I certainly am not a prophet. I study scripture to show myself approved (2 Tim. 2:15).
Normally the regeneration experience revealed in scripture is “spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:14-15; 1 John 2:29; 3:7) because it is “beyond the physical senses” in the realm of the “Holy Spirit to the human spirit”. So why did God grant I “experientially know” Scripture is speaking of actual events when it reveals the new birth? I believe God wanted me to testify, without any doubt “scripture is true”, that the regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an event that is real in everyone who calls upon the name of the LORD. It is the SAME for EVERY born again believer whether they “felt something supernatural” or not.
Every believer partakes of the divine nature (2Pet. 1:4) at regeneration, when the weak human spirit becomes “a new creature” “living man” born from above in Christ. Because that change occurs “Spirit to spirit” (Rom. 8:16), not in the flesh, the senses of the flesh are unaware of it. Just as we cannot “feel the soul existing in us”, we cannot feel what is happening in our spirit apart from our flesh. So nothing is felt physically. If anyone believes a physical experience occurred when they were regenerated, they are putting “the cart before the horse”. Their changed heart and mind may have caused the physical organ of the brain to produce the electro-chemicals creating the physical experience, but there is no real connection between the Holy Spirit and that physical sensation (Rom. 7:18). That explains why scripture NEVER identifies a physical experience as being the work of the Holy Spirit. Our physical regeneration must wait for the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:35-56).
About Me | End Time News
CHAP. XI.16—CONCERNING TEACHERS, APOSTLES, AND PROPHETS. Whosoever, therefore, cometh and teacheth you all these things that have been said before, receive him…But he shall not remain except one day; but if there be need, also the next; but if he remain three days, he is a false prophet. 6 And...
endtimenews.net
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