Ten reasons why every believer should speak in tongues

[AVBunyan]

Can I ask a question of the posters who have posted in this thread?Have you spoken or do u have the gift of speaking in ongues?

No - when God saved my sorry hide over 25 years ago he gave m the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and made me complete at the moment of salvation.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

With the Spirit and a King James bible God has completely equipped me - now all I have to do is the hard part - obey, submit, and live and walk by faith :o

Oh my...Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. :

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. :D

God bless

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
Are you a believer – tongues are not for you - They were directed to those (unbelieving Jewes during Acts) who did not believe…
Look at the verse before:
1 Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Folks – you can allegorize and spiritualize but the verses are clear – Tongues were a sign of judgment to unbelieving Israel in Acts.

This scenario is not going on today - What is going on today are folks are taking what wasmeant for Israel in early Acts and applying them to themselves today because it feels good.

AV

You are hung up on one purpose that Scripture lists as a reason for tongues, and are trying to apply it to all of it.

 

[AVBunyan]

AV - You are hung up on one purpose that Scripture lists as a reason for tongues, and are trying to apply it to all of it.

OK then - show me more simpler and concise explanation -

Without understanding the plan God had and has for Israel as compared to the body of Christ then you will continue to misapply these and other plain references regarding tongues.

During the transition period of Acts before the completed revelation there was a need for the gifts but once Paul got the completion of the revelation and the "perfect man" had come then the gifts went away -

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul couldn't even heal Timothy at the end of his ministry.

One has to really study, Gabby - II TIm. 2:15 - you just can run with an experience as the final authority.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

AV brother...
As I continue in my studies, I now see that a truely proper, rightful division of God's word becomes key in understanding many passages and prophecies.

Amen Vic - thanks - this demonstrates a teachable spirit - rare these days. When ones takes a dispensational viewpoint then he'll have to constantly be prepared to adjust - I've had to re-align my doctrine up many a time after I've been shown truths rightly divided.

Right division and a King James Bible helps to clear up a Bible College education :-D

God bless

 

[jgredline]

AV
Do you believe the gifts of the spirit were ''only'' a first century Gift?

 

[AVBunyan]

AV
Do you believe the gifts of the spirit were a first century Gift?

Yes -
1. When Israel rejected Paul and his message in Acts 28 that was it - God put Israel on the back burner until he renews his dealings with them again in the future tribulation.

2. When Paul got the completed revelation and the body of Christ formed there was no need any more for the gifts or gifted men (Eph. 40. All saints are complete in Christ and on the same equal footing (Col. 2).

God bless

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz,

Read it for yourself. In a WHOLE chapter in which Paul tries to EXPLAIN to a people that are MISTAKEN about tongues, He plainly states that; 'he utters mysteries with 'his spirit'. NOTICE; 'his spirit'!! NOT as THE Spirit gives utterance' but speaking mysteries through HIS OWN spirit.

Paul could NOT simply TELL them that they WERE WRONG. He needed for them to UNDERSTAND what they were doing and Why. To simply TELL them what they were doing was wrong would have served NO PURPOSE in 'understanding'. He didn't simply want them to STOP doing what they were doing, he WANTED THEM TO UNDERSTAND WHY it was WRONG.

So many have tried for SO LONG now to use the words that Paul gave us that EXPLAIN the proper use of tongues to try and JUSTIFY their 'misuse of tongues' in TOTAL ignorance of the understanding that Paul attempted to offer. Paul is NOT encouraging tongues. NEVER. He states to 'forbid NOT to speak in tongues'. He ALSO states that there is NOTHING that we should JUDGE others by. That IF someone EATS meat sacrificed to IDOLS that we are NOT to 'judge them' in this behavior. It's NO different with tongues. Forbid NOT. Isn't this the SAME as saying; 'DO NOT JUDGE THEM THAT DO'? But, SEEK AFTER those GIFTS that matter MOST. It's NOT about what we are 'supposed to DO', it's about UNDERSTANDING that which we DO do.

MEC

Thanks bro :wink:

I DO understand what I do. I have been given a gift by God. This gift enables me to pray with my spirit (as Paul said he did) and I pray with my mind (as Paul said he did). Am I edified when I speak in a tongue? YES.
Do I understand the tongue? No - and I would qualify that in that sometimes I have 'known' afterwards what it is I have prayed.
And you know what? I am edified! God himself strengthens me, builds me up - even though my mind is unfruitful. I pray with my spirit. I pray with my mind. I sing with my spirit. I sing with my mind. I praise God with my spirit. I praise God with my mind.

Please remember, I am not justifying the misuse of 'tongues' just as you would not justify the misuse of any other spiritual gift.

Even as there is the true Christ. So, there are false christs. Even as there is the true bride of Christ. There is also the harlot. (Think about this). Even as our heavenly father has imparted gifts to man, so does the god of this world seek to undermine in any way he can, the work of God.

What a brilliant strategy this god of the world uses - to use the subjects of the kingdom to bring into question even the gifts that a Holy God would bestow upon his own.

And if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived by his ploys.

 

[mutzrein]

Can I ask a question of the posters who have posted in this thread?


Have you spoken or do u have the gift of speaking in tongues?

Yes. See my previous post to MEC.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

....the gifts went away....

See ya around AV :smt039

 

[jgredline]

Wow....While I feel that the gift of tongues is often times faked and miss used, there is no dought in my mind that the gift is real and genuine along with the other gifts....I have been enjoying reading everyones post and did not really have any intentions of jumping in here, but I could not help it....AV, I have to disagree with you on this....I will even leave my own expeiriances out of it for now and look at some scripture.....



1 COR 1:2-9 KJV
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here Paul is telling the saints in Corinth that Spiritual gifts are given to equip the church to carry out its ministry until Christ returns....Now before I go any further someone will say, ''there you go. Paul wrote the letter to those in Corinth''...I will then say, ''if thats the case then all the letters were written to specific groups of which none of us are a part of''.......We can argue this further but for now this is not the purpose of this post...

So if they are given to the church until Christ returns, they never ceased....for it would be a contridiction to this scripture...

Ok, now lets look at 1 COR 13:8-13 KJV
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Ok, I am quite familiar with the way this scripture is used out of context and we can go over it word by word if need be....No problem, but here is a real quick synposis on what it means...

, “When the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass awayâ€Â, indicating also that these “imperfect†gifts will be in operation until Christ returns....

1 Cor 13:10 13:10 could be paraphrased, “When the perfect ( The Lord Jesus Christ) comes, prophecy and tongues and other imperfect gifts will pass away.†...In other words, these gifts are still in full effect unless Jesus has come and I got left behind....

The phrase “face to face†is several times used in the Old Testament to refer to seeing God personally...., So when Paul says, '' face to face†he clearly means, “but then we shall see God face to face.†So again he is Refering To Jesus....Who is God..

Further more lets take a look at Eph 4:11-16
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

So again here we have Paul Plainly saying what the gifts are for...For the work of the ministry...The ministry did not end in the first century, it began in the first century....

He is emphatic in the Greek to denote that Christ Himself gives the gifted people to the church....Yes he is speaking of the 12 apostles and himself, but the Greek again is emphatic here and Paul is speaking in the future tense as well...

ἐξ οὗ i.e. from Christ. συν-αρμολογούμενον ptc pass. -λογέω fit together συμ-βιβαζόμενον ptc pass. -βιβάζω put together, join. ἁφή band, ligament. ἐπι-χορηγία (< ἐπι-χορ-ηγέω provide the expenses for a chorus; in general, provide for) supply, support. ἐν-έργεια working, activity. μέτρον v.7. εἷς ἕκαστος each individual. μέρος v.9. αὔξησις growth. ποιεῖται mid. ποιέω (αὔξησιν π. = αὐξάνει and so ποιεῖται mid)

Christ is the source and sustainer of the body. Fitly joined together....by the use of gifted people he places in the body...../ Church...Again the church age did not end after the first century....

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Here Paul is telling the saints in Corinth that Spiritual gifts are given to equip the church to carry out its ministry until Christ returns…So if they are given to the church until Christ returns, they never ceased....for it would be a contridiction to this scripture...

2. Ok, now lets look at 1 COR 13:8-13 KJV
, “When the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass awayâ€Â, indicating also that these “imperfect†gifts will be in operation until Christ returns....

3. Further more lets take a look at Eph 4:11-16
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,

Hi JG - I appreciate the thought you put in your post.

1. The returning here was the possible 2nd advent that could have come at any moment during the book of Acts – All that was needed was for Israel to accept their Messiah (which was being offered again) and then the Daniel’s 70th week would kick in and then Christ would return physically to bring in the promised kingdom. The return here was not rapture BTW. Note that Christ was standing in Acts 7 while Stephen was being stoned – it appears that Christ was preparing to return but after Israel’s rejection Christ sat down and there he is till Rev. 19. JD – you are dealing with a transitional period during Acts where God was moving from the kingdom message to the body of Christ. Folks are mixing it all together and coming up with confusion here.

2. That “perfect†is the “perfect†man of Eph. 4 – When Paul got the completed revelation from Christ after Acts 28 then all new revelation stopped, the gifts died out (were not needed), and Paul started revealing the truth regarding the mystery of the body of Christ – Ephesians and Colossians.

3. These “some†were gifted men – not needed any more – the Spirit has been given along with the completed revelation – written word.

What you have now are folks deciding what gift they or others have or do not have. All saints are complete – Col. 2 – all on same playing level – no one is any more gifted than the others.

The old writers, missionaries, evangelists, etc. (Paton, Spurgeon, Watson, Whitfield, Edwards, Newsome, Bunyan, etc,) never spent any time on this – they studied and submitted. This “gift†movement is a modern movement started by charismatics and has bled over to a dull and lifeless body of Christ looking for an experience.

Most (not all) people that are hung up on gifts believe the saint can lose salvation and are mixed up with modern music and multiple/conflicting versions.

I know I sound hard but folks had better start learning to distinguish between God’s dealing with Israel and the body of Chris or the next thing folks will be twiddling beads and saying prayers for the dead!.

Bottom line - Folks are mixing kingdom age doctrine meant for Israel with body of Christ truth for today -

Folks, gifts sound good and they may give a warm fuzzy but it is unsound doctrine. If Satan can coountefiet miracles in the tribulation then he can counterfeit the Spirit today...
2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Cor 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Right division clears it up - not easy
Please re-read Vic's comments on how dispensational truth helped Vic's understanding.

God bless

 

[jgredline]

Jack
I don't want to hi-jack your thread, so please feel free to step in anytime and straighten us out.....


AV
Thanks for the response. Let me say at the outset here, that I in no way believe that the Church has replaced Israel....Replacement theology is false....I also do not expect to change your mind on this because this issue of spiritual Gifts has been debated by theologians from both camps...The Calvinist VS Armenianist...for centuries....This has been a source of confusion...While most of my theology and my education is reformed, this is one reason I consider myself a ''Calminianist''....

Let me also say that in discussions like this, we should leave out our own opinions and let the bible interpret itself....I believe if we do this, then the scriptures are clear on everything....after all we have the Holy Spirit who will lead us into all truth...

Hi JG - I appreciate the thought you put in your post.

1. The returning here was the possible 2nd advent that could have come at any moment during the book of Acts – All that was needed was for Israel to accept their Messiah (which was being offered again) and then the Daniel’s 70th week would kick in and then Christ would return physically to bring in the promised kingdom. The return here was not rapture BTW. Note that Christ was standing in Acts 7 while Stephen was being stoned – it appears that Christ was preparing to return but after Israel’s rejection Christ sat down and there he is till Rev. 19. JD – you are dealing with a transitional period during Acts where God was moving from the kingdom message to the body of Christ. Folks are mixing it all together and coming up with confusion here.

AV..With all due respect, you have offered allot of speculation here without any scripture support.

2. That “perfect†is the “perfect†man of Eph. 4 – When Paul got the completed revelation from Christ after Acts 28 then all new revelation stopped, the gifts died out (were not needed), and Paul started revealing the truth regarding the mystery of the body of Christ – Ephesians and Colossians.

...Lets take a close look at the context here...First Paul is writing this letter to a group of folks...The Corinthians...The letter to the Ephesians had not been written yet, so they would obviously have no knowledge of it....
Lets look at this scripture again....1 cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face....
In this context the folks would have been very familiar with ''face to face''...
Gen 32:30 For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved
Ex 33:11 So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.....So keeping with the context of ''this'' letter is is quite clear that Paul was speaking of Christ return....This is how I would have interpreted this letter had it been written to me....I don't see anyplace in this Letter to suggest Paul meant ''until the scriptures are complete''
There is no reason other than human opinion to presume to attribute this reference to the conclusion of the canon of the Scriptures. While the inspired Word of God was completed at the end of the first century, its completion did not signal an end to the continuing operation of the very powers it describes. Rather, that Word instructs us to welcome the Holy Spirit’s gifts and ministries in our lives and for use in the purpose of edification for the body of Christ.....

3. These “some†were gifted men – not needed any more – the Spirit has been given along with the completed revelation – written word.

What you have now are folks deciding what gift they or others have or do not have. All saints are complete – Col. 2 – all on same playing level – no one is any more gifted than the others.

The old writers, missionaries, evangelists, etc. (Paton, Spurgeon, Watson, Whitfield, Edwards, Newsome, Bunyan, etc,) never spent any time on this – they studied and submitted. This “gift†movement is a modern movement started by charismatics and has bled over to a dull and lifeless body of Christ looking for an experience.

AV...Again you have offered allot of opinion here...I will offer some as well...First like I said before...This is NOT new theology...This did not come from the AZUSA revival..This has been debated since well before the reformation and afterwards as well...Wesley and Adam Clark to name a couple....

Most (not all) people that are hung up on gifts believe the saint can lose salvation and are mixed up with modern music and multiple/conflicting versions.

I do not believe that a saint can loose their salvation....In the doctrine of Justification the reformed side has it right.....As far as Music goes, I can't sing at all and sound like a broken record, but I know my awful voice is Music to Gods ears....As far as bible versions, go that is a debate for another day....

I know I sound hard but folks had better start learning to distinguish between God’s dealing with Israel and the body of Chris or the next thing folks will be twiddling beads and saying prayers for the dead!.

Amen, I agree with you...here..

Bottom line - Folks are mixing kingdom age doctrine meant for Israel with body of Christ truth for today -

Yes, many folks do this and many people also attribute things to Israel that are for the Church.....

Folks, gifts sound good and they may give a warm fuzzy but it is unsound doctrine. If Satan can coountefiet miracles in the tribulation then he can counterfeit the Spirit today...
2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Cor 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Your preaching to the quire here.....this is why we need the gift of decernment of evil spirits in the church body....

Right division clears it up - not easy
Please re-read Vic's comments on how dispensational truth helped Vic's understanding.

God bless

OK, I will reread it....

 

[AVBunyan]

1. The returning here was the possible 2nd advent that could have come at any moment during the book of Acts – All that was needed was for Israel to accept their Messiah (which was being offered again) and then the Daniel’s 70th week would kick in and then Christ would return physically to bring in the promised kingdom. The return here was not rapture BTW. Note that Christ was standing in Acts 7 while Stephen was being stoned – it appears that Christ was preparing to return but after Israel’s rejection Christ sat down and there he is till Rev. 19. JD – you are dealing with a transitional period during Acts where God was moving from the kingdom message to the body of Christ. Folks are mixing it all together and coming up with confusion here.

AV..With all due respect, you have offered allot of speculation here without any scripture support.

JG - The above was a very brief overview - Due to a bad right hand and time I just can't devote the time needed to write out a full-blown article on "God's Dispenational Dealings with Isael".

We will not come to an agreement here due to the reasons I gave above - If you want to search it out then google the variations of "israel, dispensational kingdom message"

God bless

 

[HolyCraving]

I find the name of this thread quite offencesive in a way.

I would love to be able to speak in tongues, some of the reasons why you have included in your list.

Your thread name says every believer should be able to speak in tongues, implying there is something wrong with me, that I am not a believer and that is why I can't. God has told me otherwise.

Your thread name implies that you believe, as many do, that 'better' Christians can speak in tongues, and that every believer should be able to, so those that can't must be either lesser than the others or decieved.

Have I taken the name of your thread the wrong way, or is this what you believe?

This is the exact sort of pride that Paul condemns in 1 Corinthians...

Only God gives the gift. Not having it is not a sign of something "wrong" with you. God gives His gifts as He sees fit.

Regards

I agree with these two posts completely every christian doesnt have to be able to speak in tongues,

Tongues is actually, speaking your own language or dialect, but others could (not neccessary believers) understand it there own dialect or language. Just like it was on pentecost. Just Like it was before the tower of Babel fell. Just like it'll be in the millenium i suppose! The Benny Hinn stuff is just non-sense. Not all people have all the gifts, so no it is not neccessary!

for that benny hinn stuff i dont think its non-sense because some of the people seem to be praising god just at a really fast rate and ive heard stories wheres some people were praising god in another earthly language they didnt know.

 

[Imagican]

j,

You tried to 'pull it' too. The churches and MOST commentary would insist that 'that which is PERFECT' IS Jesus Christ. Funny, but Christ ALREADY came. Remember? The KINGDOM of God is WITHIN. Remember? So, if it is NOT referring to Christ, then it MUST be referring to 'something else'.

So, what IS this 'that which is perfect'? Not Christ for Christ LIVES IN MY HEART. He IS HERE NOW. So WHAT does that LEAVE?

It leaves THAT which man has been MISSING since his relationship with God BEGAN; LOVE. The UNDERSTANDING of love. Many 'think' that they KNOW what love means. MOST couldn't be further from the TRUTH.

We ARE able to HAVE a 'perfect understanding of LOVE'. The Bible sometimes refers to love as CHARITY. Now, for those that would DOUBT what I offer in understanding. GO BACK. Go back and READ what it being discussed when this scripture is offered. Read WHAT 'that which is perfect IS'. Most believe that since it is referred to 'coming' that it MUST be 'someone'. WRONG. It IS simply the UNDERSTANDING of Love. For when one comes to an understanding, a PERFECT understanding, ONLY then are they able to offer in return what has been so FREELY offered to them.

As PROOF of what I offer. What if I could point out another scripture that EXACTLY mimics this scripture YET OFFERS explanation. Would you THEN be able to 'let go' of what you have been TAUGHT for the SAKE of truth? Let's see...........

Ephesians 4:11

1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27Neither give place to the devil.

28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Now, for those that TRULY seek understanding. READ this chapter. Note what it underlined. Then GO BACK and read the Chapter of Corinthians dealing with 'that which is perfect'. Then come back and TELL me what you have learned.

For those that just like to 'play' with words. You'll NOT FIND much here. Just more words to 'play with'.

What IS God? And what IS Jesus Christ? I will NOT let you get this one WRONG!!!!!!!! God IS LOVE. Christ IS the EXAMPLE of THIS LOVE. So, when we come unto the FULNESS of Christ, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

NOW, go back and read it AGAIN. Let me know if you 'GET IT'.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

j,

You tried to 'pull it' too. The churches and MOST commentary would insist that 'that which is PERFECT' IS Jesus Christ. Funny, but Christ ALREADY came. Remember? The KINGDOM of God is WITHIN. Remember? So, if it is NOT referring to Christ, then it MUST be referring to 'something else'.

.....Mec...As I said before in my last post.......Lets take a close look at the context here...First Paul is writing this letter to a group of folks...The Corinthians...The letter to the Ephesians had not been written yet, so they would obviously have no knowledge of it....
Lets look at this scripture again....1 cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face....
In this context the folks would have been very familiar with ''face to face''...
Gen 32:30 For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved
Ex 33:11 So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.....So keeping with the context of ''this'' letter is is quite clear that Paul was speaking of Christ return....This is how I would have interpreted this letter had it been written to me....I don't see anyplace in this Letter to suggest Paul meant ''until the scriptures are complete''
There is no reason other than human opinion to presume to attribute this reference to the conclusion of the canon of the Scriptures. While the inspired Word of God was completed at the end of the first century, its completion did not signal an end to the continuing operation of the very powers it describes. Rather, that Word instructs us to welcome the Holy Spirit’s gifts and ministries in our lives and for use in the purpose of edification for the body of Christ..... Now the biggest problem that I see in this discussion with you is that you do not believe Jesus to be God....so of course you are not going to agree with this....However, what you believe does not matter as the text is pretty clear.....

Mec...and others..What is the word “then†in verse 12 referring to? Paul says, “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then we shall see face to face. His word “then†has to refer back to something in the previous verses that he has been explaining. We look first to verse 11, but see that nothing in verse 11 can be a future time Paul refers to as “thenâ€Â: “When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.†All of this refers to the past, not the future.... Nothing in the verse speaks of a future time when something will happen.
So we look back to verse 10: “but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.†Here is a statement about the future. At some point in the future, Paul says that “the perfect†will come, and “the imperfect†will pass away, will be “made useless.†When will this happen? This is what is explained by verse 12. Then at the time the perfect comes, we shall see “face to face†and know “even as we are known.â€Â
This means that the time when “the perfect†comes must be the time of Christ’s return.

Mec...You do believe Jesus is coming back right? This is what the book of revelation teaches as did Paul in The letter to the Thessolonians....

So, what IS this 'that which is perfect'? Not Christ for Christ LIVES IN MY HEART. He IS HERE NOW. So WHAT does that LEAVE?

mmmm..Not quite..It is the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer, the third person of the Trinity......

It leaves THAT which man has been MISSING since his relationship with God BEGAN; LOVE. The UNDERSTANDING of love. Many 'think' that they KNOW what love means. MOST couldn't be further from the TRUTH.

1 cor 13 says it all.....That is a topic for another day.....

We ARE able to HAVE a 'perfect understanding of LOVE'. The Bible sometimes refers to love as CHARITY. Now, for those that would DOUBT what I offer in understanding. GO BACK. Go back and READ what it being discussed when this scripture is offered. Read WHAT 'that which is perfect IS'. Most believe that since it is referred to 'coming' that it MUST be 'someone'. WRONG. It IS simply the UNDERSTANDING of Love. For when one comes to an understanding, a PERFECT understanding, ONLY then are they able to offer in return what has been so FREELY offered to them.

well, lets see...mmm, nope...I believe I have already covered this....Yep, I just checked. I did cover it in detail with scripture, not opinion....

As PROOF of what I offer. What if I could point out another scripture that EXACTLY mimics this scripture YET OFFERS explanation. Would you THEN be able to 'let go' of what you have been TAUGHT for the SAKE of truth? Let's see...........

OK, Lets take a look, but as I have already said in a previous post, it is all about ''context''....In order to understand the Letters of Paul, you ''must'' keep them in context...E.G. Romans interprets Romans....This is basic Heurmenutics...

Ephesians 4:11

1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27Neither give place to the devil.

28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

OK, I will check out this chapter in context in a minute....

Now, for those that TRULY seek understanding. READ this chapter. Note what it underlined. Then GO BACK and read the Chapter of Corinthians dealing with 'that which is perfect'. Then come back and TELL me what you have learned.

For those that just like to 'play' with words. You'll NOT FIND much here. Just more words to 'play with'.

What IS God? And what IS Jesus Christ? I will NOT let you get this one WRONG!!!!!!!! God IS LOVE. Christ IS the EXAMPLE of THIS LOVE. So, when we come unto the FULNESS of Christ, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

NOW, go back and read it AGAIN. Let me know if you 'GET IT'.

MEC

....With all due respect, You and I see scripture quite differently because I believe and know Jesus to be and is God and this makes all the difference in the world to bible interpretation.....Atleast as far as these verses go...

 

[Imagican]

j,

What it MEANS is; When we FIRST accept Christ INTO our hearts, He knows US. When we begin to EMULATE the LOVE that He offers, ONLY THEN do we SEE "FACE TO FACE". For we DO see through a 'glass DARKLY' UNTIL we come unto an UNDERSTANDING of Love. ONLY then are we able to SEE as we are MEANT TO. To UNDERSTAND as we are MEANT to.

What I offered has NOTHING to do with TIME-LINES. It has to do with TWO different epistles stating BASICALLY that SAME THING. One simply expounds upon the OTHER.

We find in Corinthians Paul explaining the GIFTS and explaining NOT ONLY THE GIFTS; But, THEIR PURPOSE. And what IS the purpose? Ephesians explains it in MUCH more detail than Corinthians. For in Corinthians we simply have the allusion to love. In Ephesians we have direct statements. FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS. Huh? what does THAT mean? It's SIMPLE really. For The Word is for ONE PURPOSE and ONE PURPOSE ONLY; To TEACH US of the LOVE of God. For WHAT IS GOD?

Now, you would say that 'that which is perfect' IS Christ. Funny, but Christ has ALREADY COME. Come and lives RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE in the hearts of those that have allowed it. So, what IS IT that has NOT come YET? And NOT for ALL men, but to those that 'IT' has NOT YET COME?

I find it difficult to comprehend how it could be so hard to understand. For it was NOT ME that 'came to this understanding'. This IS understanding that WAS revealed. And HOW? Through THE SPIRIT.

SO, you have IGNORED the CONTEXT of the ENTIRE CHAPTER dealing with GIFTS and Charity to ACCEPT what makes NO sense unless you 'take it OUT of context'. Go BACK and read it again. NO, not JUST this statement. READ what is before it and AFTER it. Then read Ephesians again and SEE if this is NOT Paul offering definition of LOVE in BOTH of these epistles.

Paul is NOT 'predicting' the FUTURE coming of Christ. If so, IT'S REALLY STRANGE that the ENTIRE chapter is about SOMETHING ELSE. And then, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, he CHANGES what he is talking about? Come on brother. Open up your heart and your mind.

That which is PERFECT is the understanding of LOVE that IS capable of being fulfilled by those that allow The Spirit to CHANGE their carnal hearts into that which IS SPIRIT. That simple. That the churches have MISUNDERSTOOD this for a day or for THOUSANDS OF YEARS is irrelevant. They use to teach that the earth was FLAT too. That the EARTH was the CENTER of the universe as well. LOCKED people up for PROVING differently. But we NOW KNOW that they WERE WRONG. The commentary and teachings of the churches are WRONG about THIS TOO. It is apparent to ANYONE that READS what is offered for the sake of UNDERSTANDING RATHER THAN SIMPLE ACCEPTANCE.

But I am UNABLE to 'offer The Spirit'. All I am ABLE to do is POINT OUT what has been offered. Here we are arguing about tongues. And what did Paul say about 'prophecy'? When one is MOVED by The Spirit, other ARE to LISTEN and LEARN. Here is a PERFECT example of The Spirit offering UNDERSTANDING that those in attendance and present WHEN this understanding IS OFFERED, IGNORING it for the sake of 'what they have been taught'.

It is NOT a matter of WHO is right. It's a matter of WHAT IS RIGHT. This is NOT a 'competition' to see WHO knows what and who doesn't. It IS a matter of 'those that ARE a 'part' of The Body'. And EACH is there for a REASON. There is STILL prophecy. NO, not so much concerning predictions of the FUTURE, MORE SO in that there is MUCH that IS misunderstood IN THE WORD. And, there ARE those that are ABLE to be 'led' IN THE SPIRIT; TO UNDERSTANDING. And these ARE to offer this to OTHERS. Otherwise there IS the ability for The Word to be interpreted in ANY way that one sees fit.

Now, it's up to YOU to discern WHEN The Spirit offers understanding. And to 'fight' against it means that one doesn't even KNOW IT.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Mec
While I am quite sure I can write you a verse by commentary on this chapter, let me focus on a the heart of these verses....for the sake of post length...

Lets look at verse 8 for a minute.....Who is it that gave the Gifts to the church?....The Greek screams out that it was Jesus himself who gave the gifts (apostles) to the church...

Lets junp ahead to verse 11 and 12... These verses are basically a commentary on the second part of the quotation in verse 8, namely, Christ’s giving gifts to Christians. The gifts to the church are gifted people....Here I need to be clear on apostles....There were those that had the gift of apostleship e.g. James, Barnabas, Appollos....This group had the gift of apostleship but not the apostolic “office†as did the Twelve deciples and Paul... Apostles, were those who carried the gospel message with God’s authority. “Apostle†means “one sent as an authoritative delegate.â€Â....The purpose of the gifted men is to prepare God’s people for works of service.....and again verse 16 tells us why...The goal of all this is the building up or edifying of the body of Christ.....

No place do I read in scripture that the gifts ended after the cannon was complete....If there is a verse that says it in plain English or Greek, please point me to it....What I do read is that there is a bunch of scripture that supports spiritual Gifts.....

 

[Imagican]

Ok

I agree with EVERYTHING that you offered here.

I have YET to argue that the 'gifts' DO NOT exist. What I have tried to offer is that MANY of the 'gifts' that are CLAIMED by 'some' are CERTAINLY NOT the 'gifts' as offered by The Spirit.

True tongues do NOT exist EXCEPT as offered By The Spirit. YES there ARE TONGUES that exist 'outside' of those offered BY The Spirit. I can't describe nor can I DIRECTLY state 'WHAT' these 'tongues' ARE, but I can certainly discern WHAT they ARE NOT.

That there is MUCH confusion concerning this is evident in that many have been 'duped' into believing that ALL are 'true tongues'. What we DO KNOW is that for them to be used IN THE CHURCH they MUST conform to what Paul TOLD US concerning their PROPER USE. What I have observed is that MANY that CLAIM tongues DO NOT follow their PROPER USE. Therefore, IN MY OPINION, these are NOT, nor CAN THEY BE, True tongues as mentioned in The Word.

God IS able, through HIS SPIRIT, to gift us AT HIS WILL.

Oh, and in reply to an earlier posted question. NO, I have NEVER spoken in tongues. At times when I KNOW that I was 'in the Spirit' the deepest in my walk, I NEVER uttered things that were unintelligible to those around me or in my OWN presence. This neither PROVES nor DISPROVES ANYTHING other than the FACT that I have NEVER been 'gifted' with the ability to speak in tongues.

And to ADD to this, I have never PERSONALLY witnessed the use of TRUE TONGUES. For IF I had, I truly BELIEVE that it would have been APPARENT. Since I have witnessed a 'thing' that those that 'performed it' STATED were tongues DIFFERENTLY than what we HAVE been instructed they ARE to BE, it becomes OBVIOUS that these 'noises' were NOT the tongues of The Bible.

And, not only do I speak of personal experience, I also speak as one who has studied MUCH concerning tongues. I have read accounts offered by the 'right hand' men of different denominations that EXPOSED the 'truth' of these denominations and their 'teaching' of the use of tongues. THIS, my friends, IS IMPOSSIBLE. One CANNOT 'teach' another to SPEAK IN TONGUES. For we have The Word that STATES that the ONLY way in which a person CAN speak in tongues IS 'as The Spirit GIVES utterance'. So ONE man IS TOTALLY INCAPABLE of TEACHING another HOW to 'speak in tongues'. YET, there ARE denominations that 'teach' their students of theology HOW to 'speak in tongues'. RIDICULOUS. For 'these tongues' are 'something' different than what has been offered in The Word.

Now, are there STILL tongues that are used that ARE the tongues mentioned in The Word? You got me. I have NOT been witness to 'these'. But, I have NOT witnessed EVERYTHING that God has to offer so I will simply leave it the way that I have offered; What 'I' have witnessed so far as tongues are concerned WERE NOT the tongues offered as a 'gift by God'.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

j,

There is ONLY ONE SPIRIT of God. Either one is conformed BY it or one rebels AGAINST IT. For one CANNOT serve TWO masters.

Your 'religion' INSIST that one MUST accept 'their TEACHINGS' in order to discern The Word THROUGH The Spirit.

MY 'religion', (IF you choose to call it that), would teach that it is GOD that makes the decision of WHO and HOW HE reveals TRUTH to ANYONE, REGARDLESS of their 'religion'.

That you and I disagree on the exact nature of the entity we KNOW as Christ doesn't CHANGE the TRUTH.

You say that it is The Spirit that dwells within the heart of a 'Christian'. Perhaps you are correct and in that same understanding perhaps I am NOT a 'Christian', (never liked the word much ANYWAY). So, fancy theology aside, what I DO KNOW is that Christ LIVES within MY heart. You can 'call it' what you may, but it is Christ that lives within MY heart and NOT some spirit.

Now, I AM led by the Spirit of God. This is what LEADS me to discernment, but the LOVE that is IN my heart IS Christ Jesus. What God SEES when He looks down upon me IS; His Son; Jesus Christ. For without this 'shield', (if you will), there could or WOULD be NOTHING to offer me except PUNISHMENT for my sins.

And j, you know what? NO ONE has ever NEEDED to 'teach me' what Gods' WILL is for MY LIFE. NOT a church, a person, PERIOD. God is PLENTY capable of revealing TO ME the PLAN He has for MY LIFE. The ONLY intersessor that I NEED is HIS SON.

So, you seem to be 'well versed' in the teachings of men. That offers little comfort to me in the ability to 'accept' these offerings concerning 'the theology' of 'other men'. Won't say that you are wrong, but I can certainly say that 'men' have 'gotten it WRONG' since the BEGINNING, so there is NO reason to place one's 'faith in them now'. Place you faith in YOUR FATHER and you will NEED no 'books' other than 'HIS WORD' to lead you in the direction that He wishes.

No different than 'churches' teaching that THEY KNOW better how to distribute 'my tithes' to God's children than God Himself can reveal to ME MYSELF HOW He wishes for me to 'give to those in NEED'. God IS plenty CAPABLE and DOES lead those in need to ME PERSONALLY and when this HAPPENS; I KNOW that this IS God's will. For if NOT for His will, these I would NEVER have MET. Yet, the 'theology mongers' of this world would insist that THEY KNOW 'better' than I what Gods' WILL is for ME. Another rediculous teaching of 'men' that goes hand in hand with the churches teaching that their 'understanding of scripture' is 'better' than ANYONE elses simply because they went to a 'man-made' school of theology.

Fortunately for God's children, HE IS a 'living God'. And being such IS there for ALL who choose to place their faith in HIM. That there ARE those that would 'twist' scripture and teach that 'THEY are the SPECIAL ONES; chosen BY GOD, to BE special means absolutely NOTHING to me. For we are ALL special to God, EVEN those that CHOOSE to be LOST.

MEC

MEC