The "Elect"

[OzSpen]

Yep you were the one I was talking about.

So how would you describe how a person comes to faith in Christ alone for salvation? How do grace, faith and election fit together in a doctrine of salvation?

 

[OzSpen]

I agree. not just logically, but simply in straight-away Truth as it is written.

..... I never saw anyone seek and come to Yhwh or Yeshua to receive salvation unless they had faith no matter how small their faith.
Since without faith it is impossible to please Yhwh, and whoever seeks Him must believe that He Is and that He Is Rewarder of those who diligently seek Him...... how or why would anyone without faith even try to find Him ?? (they're(unbelievers) busy doing something else)

Is this faith irresistible in God? Does He give it and the person cannot say no?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Is this faith irresistible in God? Does He give it and the person cannot say no?

does it matter ?!

 

[OzSpen]

does it matter ?!

I consider that it does matter, because it deals with God insisting that some people are required to come into the kingdom and they have no say in accepting or rejecting it. What does that do to the rest of humanity who are not given an opportunity to believe in Christ for salvation?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

that doesn't make any sense to me. almost everyone whether born and raised Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Pentacostal, Mormon, JW, Communists, Socialists, fisherman, banker, German, Swede, Russian, Chinese, American, Mexican, shoe repairman, lawyer, janitor, card dealer, tax collector, soldier, non-anything, orphan, whatever
may be saved in Christ Jesus the Lord if they believe on Him and repent of their sinful life according to Scripture.
realize that as Yeshua said "He who believes and is immersed shall be saved, but he who believes not is already condemned."
some may not be saved who think they are, and that is known only to Yhwh.
some simple conditions and signs are found throughout Scripture describing Yhwh's people, and still few are there who find life -- most people of the world are said in Scripture to reject Yeshua, including many 'religious' ones,
and don't find out until Judgment Day that they have never been known by Him. (thus "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" may be very much more important today than ever) ... ... ... the sin of some is clearly seen or revealed(publicly for all to see), while others it is hidden until later. the antichrist takes power without apparent opposition! (just read about some of the details posted online/web story by a Baptist Pastor) --- who even thinks about these things or realizes their importance ?

answer "the elect" ..... I looked! (at the op - I forgot what it was; and it is the answer!)

Yhwh's Word is entirely true. men have messed around with it and tried to keep the truth from people seeking Yhwh, but anyone who seeks Yhwh finds Him. That is His Promise. (not man's)

 

[Sinthesis]

Ok. I don't understand. These are my questions.

When do you see that the apostolic church ending and a new creation church beginning?

Once the apostles died off and the destruction of Jerusalem closed the door on returning to the safe haven of Messianic Judaism.

How can we be a new creation separate from the apostolic church, I think we would be without a foundation, a cornerstone, or a capstone?

We share the same foundation, cornerstone, capstone as the apostolic church. However we are no longer burdened by the traditions of Messianic Judaism that they had to work through and progressively shed; a struggle which is illustrated for us in the NT.

And how can the apostolic church be separated from the elect of the OT when Abraham is the father of us all?

They are not separated in their faith in God, but the apostolic church had the benefit of receiving the Messiah. The elect are chosen for a reason, and the reasons are different pre and post Jesus.

 

[ivdavid]

It seems from this post that you believe the Reformed view that regeneration precedes faith and not that it faith logically precedes faith. Do you accept the Reformed view that a person must be born again (i.e. regenerated) before he/she can have faith?

Yes, I do believe regeneration precedes faith. I have stated where I come from in post#88 of this thread.

When I examine these verses, I find that faith is logically prior to salvation/regeneration/becoming born again: Luke 13:3; John 3:6-7, 16; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:24-25; 5:1; Titus 3:5-7; and 2 Peter 3:9.

Firstly, what is it that you hold to be 'regeneration' - we must agree upon a common understanding of what we each refer to by a term, before we can discuss further on the topic.

Regeneration, as I've understood it, is God's work of taking away the hardened stony heart of man in the flesh, and giving him a new heart - and of birthing him in the renewed spirit.

Luke 13:3 - I'm unable to see how repentance here dictates the sequence of salvation. Independently, I too believe if a man will not repent, he will perish.
John 3:6-7 - Again, I see the necessary requirement of regeneration here but no allusion to its order with respect to faith. I'm unable to see what you're seeing as conclusive evidence.
Acts 16:31 - Here, I see the necessary requirement of faith but no allusion to its order with respect to regeneration.
Romans 3:24-25 - Where is regeneration even mentioned here? If it's to be inferred indirectly, what is/are the connecting beliefs for that?
Titus 3:5-7 - Again, no allusion to its order with respect to faith.
2 Peter 3:9 - what's the connection between repentance and the sequence again?

Obviously, you've got an underlying thread that connects these verses for you - but without your explicitly stating it, I might not be able to follow your worldview. As for me, I concur with each of these above verses which I find to be wholly true and consistent with my worldview.

 

[ivdavid]

how or why would anyone without faith even try to find Him ??

Exactly. They wouldn't. And since I believe in the total depravity of man in the flesh, none, no not one, seeketh after God. Then it necessitates that this man in the flesh must be regenerated in the spirit before he seeks after God and believes in Him - hence the belief that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[JLB]

Elect = chosen....... But for what reason?
Joh 3:16 "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 Because God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's unique Son.
Joh 3:19 And this is the basis for judgment: The light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil.
Joh 3:20 Everyone who practices wickedness hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his actions may not be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may become evident that his actions have God's approval."

To be comformed to the image of His Son.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

that's (post 108 - not immediately previous one just posted(didn't read it yet)) maybe logical to some people, but that's not what Scripture plainly says to me nor anyone I know in person. "Faith", a gift from Yhwh in Yeshua, whether it's an answer to prayer, or crying out to Yhwh through some other 'stimulus' (even 'curiosity'/ 'conscience'(maybe best - as even gentiles without Torah have been/may be found obedient to Torah indicating Torah is 'in their heart' as they are doers of the Word and not just hearers(not having heard, they do what is right anyway, from ? a clear conscience/ the heart ? .... see commentaries at http://biblehub.com/romans/2-14.htm for fuller (not necessarily 87% correct ! (just found, not tested). )
(that 'sentence' just came out that way ..... step by step..... it's simpler than it looks)... ... .... (BY FAITH! ) ......

so refreshed in my mind since reading the Scriptures in the above link, the gentiles , though unregenerate, may be found to be doers of the Law/ Word/ Torah and not just hearers and so receive a reward, Yhwh's Choice. (while Jews, who have some advantages, if they do not do the Word but are hearers only, lose.)

also of note: even men not of faith are told by Yhwh that they have no excuse for not believing. period. Yhwh says His Own existence is shown and proven by all creation all around us, so no one has an excuse for not believing. they cannot claim " but I wasn't regenerate so how could I believe?"

 

[Deborah13]

Once the apostles died off and the destruction of Jerusalem closed the door on returning to the safe haven of Messianic Judaism.


We share the same foundation, cornerstone, capstone as the apostolic church. However we are no longer burdened by the traditions of Messianic Judaism that they had to work through and progressively shed; a struggle which is illustrated for us in the NT.


They are not separated in their faith in God, but the apostolic church had the benefit of receiving the Messiah. The elect are chosen for a reason, and the reasons are different pre and post Jesus.

Hmm...food for thought. Thanks for your explanation.

 

[Deborah13]

also of note: even men not of faith are told by Yhwh that they have no excuse for not believing. period. Yhwh says His Own existence is shown and proven by all creation all around us, so no one has an excuse for not believing. they cannot claim " but I wasn't regenerate so how could I believe?"

That is what it says alright.
God COMMANDS all men to repent. In the matter of salvation, repentance is more than admitting that one has sinned against God. The unbelieving Jews believe they have sinned against God just as many others do.
So what is the command to repent of "unbelief in the Messiah, the Savior and Lord."

Joh 16:7 `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;
Joh 16:8 and having come, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin indeed, because they do not believe in me;

 

[Deborah13]

Exactly. They wouldn't. And since I believe in the total depravity of man in the flesh, none, no not one, seeketh after God. Then it necessitates that this man in the flesh must be regenerated in the spirit before he seeks after God and believes in Him - hence the belief that regeneration precedes faith.

It's interesting, R.C. Sproul believes the regeneration must precede faith and yet he wrote this.....
""Once Luther grasped the teaching of Paul in Romans, he was reborn" (R. C. Sproul, The Holiness of God, 1993 edition, p. 144). "
In order to be consistent with his theology Sproul he must not have written this correctly. He would have had to say, something like this... Once Luther was reborn, he grasped the teaching of Paul in Romans.

In Acts 16 there is written the story about the jailer who is watching over Paul and Silas who are prisoners. He is ready to kill himself thinking they had escaped. Paul stops him...

Act 16:29 And, having asked for a light, he sprang in, and trembling he fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 and having brought them forth, said, `Sirs, what must I do--that I may be saved?'
Act 16:31 and they said, `Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved--thou and thy house;'

Now if one must be regenerated (reborn) before they believe this seems like a strange thing for Paul to say. Wouldn't he have said something like....There is nothing you can do, you must wait on God to regenerate you so that you can believe.

So what did Spurgeon say about all this.....
"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." The Warrant of Faith C.H. Spurgeon Sermon 531 year 1863
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0531.htm

Spurgeon believed, as I do, that faith and regeneration are simultaneous, they happen at the same time.

 

[Sinthesis]

Hmm...food for thought. Thanks for your explanation.

The idea is to get away from a contemporary all Christian context of there being regular Christians and then super 'Elect' Christians, which seems elitist. Rather we can look at it from the apostles' perspective where there are Jews and then the 'Elect' Jews who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah, and as a result are being drawn out of Judaism to form Christianity. Christianity certainly wasn't born at Pentecost because the gospel wasn't even extended to Gentiles until the Martyrdom of Stephan, and a religion that respectfully excludes Gentiles can't be Christian. The members were certainly saved, but it was a generation long process in which they metamorphosed from Jews who had found the Messiah into Christians as members of a separate religion without regard to heredity. In effect I'm likening the Apostolic Church to John the Baptist; paving the way that the New Jerusalem of Christianity could take over for the Old Jerusalem to be taken away in judgement.

 

[Deborah13]

The idea is to get away from a contemporary all Christian context of there being regular Christians and then super 'Elect' Christians, which seems elitist. Rather we can look at it from the apostles' perspective where there are Jews and then the 'Elect' Jews who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah, and as a result are being drawn out of Judaism to form Christianity. Christianity certainly wasn't born at Pentecost because the gospel wasn't even extended to Gentiles until the Martyrdom of Stephan, and a religion that respectfully excludes Gentiles can't be Christian. The members were certainly saved, but it was a generation long process in which they metamorphosed from Jews who had found the Messiah into Christians as members of a separate religion without regard to heredity. In effect I'm likening the Apostolic Church to John the Baptist; paving the way that the New Jerusalem of Christianity could take over for the Old Jerusalem to be taken away in judgement.

I will consider this but don't you think that we run into a problem with that considering even just one statement by Paul directed to Jews and Greek alike and after the death of Stephen.

YLT
Col 3:11 where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, servant, freeman--but the all and in all--Christ.
Col 3:12 Put on, therefore, as choice ones of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humble-mindedness, meekness, long-suffering,

KJV
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

I don't believe the Jews were drawn away from Judaism to form Christianity. Rather, I believe like Paul wrote about, that the wolves drew (or tried to ) believers away from Truth and away from the Jewish/gentile (the barrier having been brought down in Yeshua) Foundation in Yeshua (Edited, ToS 2.2, "Discussion of Catholic doctrine is limited and will only be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature." This includes discussion for and against, as well as bashing and name calling. Obadiah)

 

[ivdavid]

the gentiles , though unregenerate, may be found to be doers of the Law/ Word/ Torah and not just hearers and so receive a reward, Yhwh's Choice.

I'm quite confused here. Are you stating that some have actually been found to be doers of the law? If so, then they'd have attained unto the righteousness of the law(Rom 10:5,Gal 3:12,Lev 18:5) setting them apart from even needing Christ. I do not read Rom 2 stating anyone to actually be a doer of the Law - I only see Rom 2 building the case for Rom 3:9,19.

no one has an excuse for not believing. they cannot claim " but I wasn't regenerate so how could I believe?"

Nobody ever is entitled to such an excuse anyhow. Isn't this the very case of stumbling at that stumblingstone? Imagine the jewish reaction to Paul's preaching against the law - the jews thought Paul's teaching was heresy because he seemed to make void the law(Rom 3:31), giving an excuse to the people for not keeping the law with all his blanket statements such as in Gal 3:10, Rom 3:20. Can the Jew now ask - why must I be under the curse of the Law when anyway Paul claims I cannot but be found guilty under the Law? Is he entitled the excuse to being a transgressor of the Law given that none can ever be found justified by the law? If the jew is not permitted such an excuse for being unable to do the law, then similarly man(jew or gentile) is not permitted an excuse for being unable to believe in the flesh.

Regeneration is that enabling act of God's mercy, without which man does have the God-endowed capacity to believe - and which he's commanded to exercise but which he rebelliously chooses not to. Through regeneration, this rebellion and hardness itself is broken down so that man is now free to truly believe in God.

 

[ivdavid]

It's interesting, R.C. Sproul believes the regeneration must precede faith and yet he wrote this.....

Haha. I have not read any of Sproul's works, neither have I verified his clarifications/context. But if all that you state is as it is, then it's a good thing that it was Sproul being inconsistent on this and not Paul or any of the other Scripture writers.

Now if one must be regenerated (reborn) before they believe this seems like a strange thing for Paul to say. Wouldn't he have said something like....There is nothing you can do, you must wait on God to regenerate you so that you can believe.

Are you confusing the preaching of the Gospel message with actual regeneration itself? What you've observed is hyper-calvinism - an abuse of the calvinist doctrines beyond the measures it sets for itself. The Gospel message to be preached everywhere and to all is simply the same - repent and believe, and whosoever calleth upon the Lord will be saved. It is commanded of man to believe, which he chooses not to as long as he is in the flesh and for which reason he is to be justly condemned. However, If God wills to have mercy and regenerates this hardened man to be birthed in the spirit, then he is able to willingly attend to the things of the Gospel.

Therefore, if the mandate to believe is removed, on what grounds can the unregenerate man be justly condemned - and how would the regenerate man know what is exactly required of him when he is enabled through God's mercy to fulfill such requirements?

So what did Spurgeon say about all this.....

We've already been through this very same line of argument on an earlier thread. Spurgeon was arguing against hyper-calvinism, an argument with which I concur. You obviously do not preach the Gospel to regenerate men - you preach to unregenerate men. This does not contradict the order of salvation where regeneration precedes one's attending to the things preached earlier and thereby believing in God.

Spurgeon believed, as I do, that faith and regeneration are simultaneous, they happen at the same time.

I see your grappling between a doctrine you hate and a preacher you love. We've been through this too earlier, and your reluctance to see it for what it is tells me I shouldn't press the issue more. Make your own conclusions on the following, I wish not to engage this argument any more -
"Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate." - Faith and Regeneration, Charles Spurgeon , http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0979.htm

 

[Stan1953]

So how would you describe how a person comes to faith in Christ alone for salvation? How do grace, faith and election fit together in a doctrine of salvation?

Well it has to start with God obviously, and how He draws everyone is as different as they are. I will say that I was given the chance to be born again way before I understood it. It was on a bad acid trip with a very poor explanation of being born again. It was after another 2 years that I finally got the right teaching and circumstance that allowed me to know and confess Jesus as my savior.
The message rang true and my faith in who Jesus really was, was the reason I confessed Jesus and was saved.
Faith is everything, and Jesus acknowledged on more than one occasion, that; YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU."

 

[agua.]

That is what it says alright.
God COMMANDS all men to repent. In the matter of salvation, repentance is more than admitting that one has sinned against God. The unbelieving Jews believe they have sinned against God just as many others do.
So what is the command to repent of "unbelief in the Messiah, the Savior and Lord."

Joh 16:7 `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;
Joh 16:8 and having come, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin indeed, because they do not believe in me;