"The Many Errors of Calvinism" -

[zeke]

I was hoping the thread would play out differently, so I could ask honest questions of them to better understand how they bridge what seems to me to be theology incompatible with the message of the Gospel.

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, this topic never ends well.

 

[Hitch]

You are mistaken again – men do have the power to come to God – those "whosoever will†per Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and all who (via freewill) hear, believe and repent will be saved. Those who disbelieve will perish. Easy concept. Luke 13 does not support Calvinism – Luke was not a Calvinist. The choice belongs to man...

"...choose you this day who you will serve..."​

You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

This is one of those things that folks often get in spite of themselves.

 

[zeke]

And you cant. ho hum

But rather I'll quote the Psalmist;

The word of God does not contradict itself my friend. The words of Jesus..."unless YOU repent you will perish" does not contradict the Psalmist's words. All men must obey God via freewill, including repenting or they shall perish. Jesus or Calvin? I will go with Jesus. Where does that leave you?

 

[Hitch]

The word of God does not contradict itself my friend. The words of Jesus..."unless YOU repent you will perish" does not contradict the Psalmist's words. All men must obey God via freewill, including repenting or they shall perish. Jesus or Calvin? I will go with Jesus. Where does that leave you?

Right here;
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

 

[zeke]

You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

This is one of those things that folks often get in spite of themselves.

Even Calvin knew that passage does not support "Unconditional Election". You may want to study a bit more...

“True, this does not refer to the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but to the special election by which he appointed his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel.†(John Calvin) ​

Is that all you have?

 

[zeke]

Right here;
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Ditto above - educate yourself. You have never read Calvin's writings - have you?

 

[Hitch]

Even Calvin knew that passage does not support "Unconditional Election". You may want to study a bit more...

“True, this does not refer to the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but to the special election by which he appointed his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel.†(John Calvin) ​

Is that all you have?

:toofunnyScore one for Zeke , my mistake. :toofunny

 

[Hitch]

Ditto above - educate yourself. You have never read Calvin's writings - have you?

Not a bit

 

[WIP]

I hope this isn't about winning points but about growing in faith.

 

[Danus]

You are mistaken again – men do have the power to come to God – those "whosoever will†per Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and all who (via freewill) hear, believe and repent will be saved. Those who disbelieve will perish. Easy concept. Luke 13 does not support Calvinism – Luke was not a Calvinist. The choice belongs to man...

"...choose you this day who you will serve..."​

Not of their own. And that's the overarching point Calvin makes. Something has to happen From GOD First.

It's Good Friday. The message of Christ is that you are bought and covered by what HE'S Done, not by what you have done. Your desire for God does not come from you, but by God. Otherwise, should it be that you are so special in your own abilities to be saved? Are you any more deserving of salvation by your own actions and will vs anyone else? Did God only die on the cross for those who are the cleaner people with the desire and will and ability to be in his good grace? Do you not see how utterly self serving, ridiculous and counter biblical that is? Because that's the counter argument in a nut shell to what Calvin and even Luther wrote. That's the Wesley argument in it's logic, but even he would not answer yes to those questions.

Calvin was a theologian. He wrote his ideas and thoughts on the bible down, like many others. He's not a Christian Sect. There is no "Calvinism" or Lutheran-ism. There is the gospel and opinions on it.

I see the gospel much like Luther and Calvin, but there are others opinions I hold up as well.

Our Freeness of will in, and of, itself does not chose God, and it is God's will alone who makes any choice at all in this matter. Calvin is supporting this line of thought. The emphasis is on God, not man.

 

[Danus]

When I summarized the verse in 2 Peter 3, I might have used the wrong words, but it wasn't done so with a bias. I didn't quote the verse for two reasons. I was, and am, posting from my phone which makes finding, copying, and pasting difficult, and I'm trying not to use one verse to pick at scripture. I wanted to present what I see when the hope Christ's sacrifice is presented in this and other books.

I certainly don't want anyone to infer that I'm for universalism! I don't see anything in His Word that suggests all will be saved. I'm not even trying to argue for free will. That might be an unwelcome approach here, but so be it. I'm simply trying to understand how such verses can be read with irresistible Grace the conclusion. I do believe no one has the capacity to believe and then repent without the Lord's Call, but I do see that the Lord wants them to, and some have chosen to reject Him.

There in is the argument. If we take away God man does not choose God. It's a bad weekend for us to work on this but Let's keep discussing it. Maybe some of our views will be a bit more interesting after Sunday. ;)

 

[zeke]

:toofunnyScore one for Zeke , my mistake. :toofunny

You didn't answer the question - you have never read Calvin's writings - have you?

 

[zeke]

Our Freeness of will in, and of, itself does not chose God, and it is God's will alone who makes any choice at all in this matter. Calvin is supporting this line of thought. The emphasis is on God, not man.

Calvin presented the error of unconditional election and reprobation - a dogma not taught in the NT. God does not force men to obey and man is not a robot. Men are called by God when they hear the word of God and choose via free-will to obey that word - they are then saved by the blood of Christ. The gospel call is open to all ‘whosoever will’.

Unconditional election has been defeated time and again by God's word. The Baptist minister, Robert Shank sums up John 6 this way...

“There is nothing about God’s gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel’s ‘whosoever will’ into a ‘whosoever must’ and a ‘most of you shan’t.’ There is nothing about it which binds men in the strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are ‘free’†(Life in the Son)​

God does not call anyone to be bound by the strait jacket of Calvinism. He calls us to be free "in Christ Jesus".

 

[jasoncran]

@zeke so you dont believe that men are capable of evil and dont do without god?im not in any shape or form a calvinist but i am also in agreement with that parts . i have seen enough of american society to convince me and also combat that man is a base creature without god grace and also from the fall.

 

[zeke]

@zeke so you dont believe that men are capable of evil and dont do without god?im not in any shape or form a calvinist but i am also in agreement with that parts . i have seen enough of american society to convince me and also combat that man is a base creature without god grace and also from the fall.

"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." ~ Paul​

Well, jason - I don't think I ever made a statement that men are not capable of evil - did I? Of course they are. ALL men have been separated from God through person sin and are in need of the cleansing blood of Christ. Men today are to "obey from the heart the doctrine delivered" (Rom 6:17) using the free-will God has given them - "faith comes by hearing the word of God". We all must "work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling".

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;*
(Php 2:12 NKJV)​

Why are you not a Calvinist?

 

[jasoncran]

"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." ~ Paul
​

Well, jason - I don't think I ever made a statement that men are not capable of evil - did I? Of course they are. ALL men have been separated from God through person sin and are in need of the cleansing blood of Christ. Men today are to "obey from the heart the doctrine delivered" (Rom 6:17) using the free-will God has given them - "faith comes by hearing the word of God". We all must "work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling".

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;*
(Php 2:12 NKJV)
​

Why are you not a Calvinist?

because if they are to be consistent then theres a verse where it says in the book of ezekiel that god will remember when you turned to him and changed and also turned from righteousnes to evil and that state where in you die is what determines your fate. god hasnt changed how he does things for the most, he made a better way with christ but eternal security wasnt the case with then and now. we have to remain in christ to be saved. we can walk away from the lord.

 

[reba]

This is a really good thread guys! Pleasant to read, informative , just a good one! Thanks

 

[zeke]

god hasnt changed how he does things for the most, he made a better way with christ but eternal security wasnt the case with then and now. we have to remain in christ to be saved. we can walk away from the lord.

Agreed - the universal truth found throughout the Bible – the truth that the "righteous man" (Christian) who turns from his righteousness to do evil and refuses to repent of his sins will die for the evil he has done" is the death knell of the Calvinist error of "once saved always save".

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)​

 

[WIP]

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;*
(Php 2:12 NKJV)​

When I read this verse I don't necessarily read it to say we are to work in order to gain our own salvation for that would be impossible for us and quite frankly has already been taken care of. What I read is that we are to work out or come to grips with or settle in our own minds or comprenend our own salvation with fear and trembling as we recognize where and whom it comes from.

For this reason I don't perform works in an effort to gain my own salvation for that would be a lost cause but rather out of respect, admiration, and love my works are a response for the one who has already done the work needed to gain my salvation. Thank you, Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[jasoncran]

its like this and i HATE BEING PIGDEON HOLED LIKE THIS TO a worked based salvation which the roman catholics espouse.im not saying that its a work based but you can divorce god, he doesnt make you love him. when we are told to do something by him, does he overpower us to make us do it? or is it because we know what he did do and then do respond in love? if so that means we can still say no and sin.eternal security denies that very power to say no to the LORD!

we arent zombies to god, and we are called to be meek. that implies we have a will but submit it to the lord.