The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[Sam21]

Why did you believe? Was it because of your wisdom? You were wise enough to discern the truth of the matter but others who heard the same Gospel were not? Was it because of your self-control? You willed yourself to faith while others couldn't muster the effort needed? Tell us please. Why did you accept Jesus?

At my salvation experience I did not even know the bible,did not come from a christian home, I simply asked God what He wanted me to do,immediately I was engulfed in intense love and God spoke to my mind saying,you must accept My Son as your Saviour. The Lord went on to explain that in my present condition I was headed for hell but I would be saved if I commited my life totally to God and confessed Jesus as my Saviour before the church. After doing this God began to speak to me from my lower chest area saying over and over,"you are My child and I love you".
It was interesting that God told me that in my present condition I was headed for hell,also God presented to me the way to be saved and then insisted that I make the choice. There is no doubt in my mind that I could have said no,in which case I would now be headed for hell because I would had rejected Christ.
You are trying to understand something that only God understands,exactly WHY one person will accept Christ while another will not...the "you were picked before you were born premise", is just a man created idea to try to explain what cannot be explained in this life.

 

[reba]

Why can't you answer my questions Reba.. I told you what happened in my case and then I asked you what happened in your case... did you just wake up one day and have Christ in you for absolutely no reason that you know of..?

Is that what happened in your case Reba ?

Or did you need to repent and believe the gospel just like everyone else.. ?

Sorry Even did not not intend to answer....

God stirred my heart. He quickened my spirit. He let me know i need Him. then i responded with repentance.

 

[Sam21]

Straw man. You're aware that's an intellectually dishonest tack, right? I mean, since you're condemning such things I would think you would shy away from them yourself. Doesn't lend much credit to you theology (IMO).

There's a reason the elect are chosen, one that's been pointed out to you from scripture several times. The reason is not the merit of the elect, however. That's what the Bible teaches. The Holy Spirit, through Paul, says we do nothing whatsoever to cause our salvation. You don't like that. I get it. But that doesn't change the fact that the Bible says the saved are chosen, including you. It's sad that you just can't give God the glory but insist on taking some of it for yourself.

If God chose YOU, completely and utterly apart from any choice you have made or thing you have done,and God rejects Joe Blow, completely and utterly apart from any choice Joe has made or thing Joe has done, then obviously God had to have made YOU superior to Joe...can you not see that this is just an offshoot from the old lie that you will be as God (superior). Look at what new age teaches(you are god). The ultimate sense of pride, I was made so good that I am guaranteed to be saved and others are made so much less than me that that have to be lost.

 

[reba]

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[savedbygrace57]

sam:

If God chose YOU, completely and utterly apart from any choice you have made or thing you have done,and God rejects Joe Blow, completely and utterly apart from any choice Joe has made or thing Joe has done, then obviously God had to have made YOU superior to Joe

Its not obvious, God made one for a superior [or gracious] purpose and end, but not a superior sinner lol..all men are sinners by nature. But God had the right to make some sinners for mercy for their sins, and some sinners for justice for their sins..

 

[Sam21]

An interesting observation. The predestined elect idea is based on egotism(the Creator made ME BETTER than you)carried to a degree that surpasses even the pride of satan(even satan COULD fall),and yet the method these folks use to defend their position is to attack as egotistic the people who made a choice to accept Christ. According to them WE are egotistical because we believe we have been given the ability and the privilege to either accept or reject the gift of salvation that God is offering. Since ability and privilege would be a gift given by God and not something that we produce of ourselves, therefore their argument is without merit.
We are faced with two possibilities, did the just God make us all the same with the same ability to chose righteousness or evil, or did God decide to make some people that get heaven no matter what they do, and other people who get hell not matter what they do?
We all want to be "special", hey I was a wrestler, hey I was a STATE CHAMPION wrestler. Look at the world of star athletics,entertainment,social position, it is all about wanting to be "head and shoulders"above the crowd...and it is all about the flesh nature of man. Though we may admire a man who was poor and worked to make himself rich,yet the real sense of awe is for the Paris Hiltons of the world, who are rich by birth,by doing nothing but just have the right parents. The ultimate high of the flesh has to be that the Creator Himself MADE ME BETTER than all you other common folks. This idea of being born saved is not of the bible and therefore not of God. Yes Paul made some statements "hard to understand",however if we look at ALL OF WHAT PAUL TAUGHT then we get the truth.

 

[RoadDebris]

@Sam21, that you refuse to answer the question says a lot about what you believe (IMO).

 

[RoadDebris]

Sorry Even did not not intend to answer....

God stirred my heart. He quickened my spirit. He let me know i need Him. then i responded with repentance.

You still aren't answering the question. Why did you agree with His assessment while others who hear the Gospel do not? Is it because you are wiser than them, choosing the more prudent coarse of action? Is it because you have more self-control, being able to will yourself to do what is right while others do not? Please tell us.

 

[RoadDebris]

If God chose YOU, completely and utterly apart from any choice you have made or thing you have done,and God rejects Joe Blow, completely and utterly apart from any choice Joe has made or thing Joe has done, then obviously God had to have made YOU superior to Joe...can you not see that this is just an offshoot from the old lie that you will be as God (superior). Look at what new age teaches(you are god). The ultimate sense of pride, I was made so good that I am guaranteed to be saved and others are made so much less than me that that have to be lost.

I see that you simply refuse to acknowledge what the Bible says on the matter. Did Jesus say He chose Peter to be an apostle because of his superior character? Peter, a man who denied Christ at His trial and led many to heresy after the resurrection? Their is nothing meritorious about those who are saved. All the merit lies with Christ. That might touch a nerve of insecurity with you but your feelings to not affect the truth.

 

[RoadDebris]

sam:



Its not obvious, God made one for a superior [or gracious] purpose and end, but not a superior sinner lol..all men are sinners by nature. But God had the right to make some sinners for mercy for their sins, and some sinners for justice for their sins..

Truth

 

[Sam21]

I see that you simply refuse to acknowledge what the Bible says on the matter. Did Jesus say He chose Peter to be an apostle because of his superior character? Peter, a man who denied Christ at His trial and led many to heresy after the resurrection? Their is nothing meritorious about those who are saved. All the merit lies with Christ. That might touch a nerve of insecurity with you but your feelings to not affect the truth.

Jesus did not say WHY he chose Peter and you do not know either. Peter did not led anyone into heresy(read your bible), also,at one point Jesus told Peter that unless Peter did as Christ commanded that he was OUT. I bet you do even know that is in the bible. I have no nerve of insecurity, God talked to me at salvation, healed me twice, explained to me how to be healed, put gas in my car one time, spoke aubibly where I could listen twice.
You have an egotistical ideology while I have God, you are the one who should be full of insecurity.

 

[RoadDebris]

An interesting observation. The predestined elect idea is based on egotism(the Creator made ME BETTER than you)carried to a degree that surpasses even the pride of satan(even satan COULD fall),and yet the method these folks use to defend their position is to attack as egotistic the people who made a choice to accept Christ.

That's the way rational thought works. Things are described as they actually are.

According to them WE are egotistical because we believe we have been given the ability and the privilege to either accept or reject the gift of salvation that God is offering.

If all men have this ability then why don't all accept Him? Why did you do the right thing while most do not? Please answer the question, if you dare.

Since ability and privilege would be a gift given by God and not something that we produce of ourselves, therefore their argument is without merit.

But you conveniently leave out the why of your choice, assuming for arguments sake that you had one to make in this sense in the first place. If God leaves it to your perogative then why did you act as you did? Was it from superior wisdom on your part that you chose him while others who hear the Gospel do not? Was it from superior self-control? Maybe your intellect is just far superior than those who stupidly refuse to accept Him? What is it?

We are faced with two possibilities, did the just God make us all the same with the same ability to chose righteousness or evil, or did God decide to make some people that get heaven no matter what they do, and other people who get hell not matter what they do?

You believe that God is being just when He saves you? That is an outrageous claim. God has two choices: to deal justly with you and hold you responsible for you sinfulness or to be merciful with you and grant you salvation in spite of your lack of merit. You are not entitled to salvation, Sam. No-one is.

We all want to be "special", hey I was a wrestler, hey I was a STATE CHAMPION wrestler.

Unlike your athletic exploits, salvation is not about the talent, skill set, toughness, or any other trait of the saved. It's all about God. I've done nothing to merit salvation. I can do nothing to merit salvation. There is nothing special about me. I'm a sinner and deserve damnation. God choose me for His own purposes, in spite of my utter worthlessness.

 

[reba]

Originally Posted by reba
Sorry Even did not not intend to answer....

God stirred my heart. He quickened my spirit. He let me know i need Him. then i responded with repentance.

You still aren't answering the question. Why did you agree with His assessment while others who hear the Gospel do not? Is it because you are wiser than them, choosing the more prudent coarse of action? Is it because you have more self-control, being able to will yourself to do what is right while others do not? Please tell us.

I cant tell you why when i dont know.
Wise? i am not
prudent choice ? not often enough.
Self control? that one is real funny
will myself to do right? nope i am a sinner saved by Grace

The only 'why' i know of is cause He first loved me.... and only heaven knows why He loves me....

 

[Sam21]

You still aren't answering the question. Why did you agree with His assessment while others who hear the Gospel do not? Is it because you are wiser than them, choosing the more prudent coarse of action? Is it because you have more self-control, being able to will yourself to do what is right while others do not? Please tell us.

Who agreed with an assessment, God won me over with love and I said yes,but I almost said no. If I had rejected Christ then I would have made the most foolish mistake a human can make, so I would suppose that anyone who rejects Christ makes the most foolish mistake possible.
Question for you,why did you chose to believe this egotistical ideology of self exaltation? Is it because you do not want to be responsible for your own actions before God?

 

[RoadDebris]

Jesus did not say WHY he chose Peter and you do not know either. Peter did not led anyone into heresy(read your bible), also,at one point Jesus told Peter that unless Peter did as Christ commanded that he was OUT. I bet you do even know that is in the bible. I have no nerve of insecurity, God talked to me at salvation, healed me twice, explained to me how to be healed, put gas in my car one time, spoke aubibly where I could listen twice.
You have an egotistical ideology while I have God, you are the one who should be full of insecurity.

God does tell us why He chooses the elect.

For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God - 1 Corinthians 1:26-29

As to not reading my Bible, while I'm no theologian I believe I do have a basic understanding of the plot of the New Testament. Peter did lead others to follow the heresy of the Judaizers.

When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. - Gal. 2:11-13

 

[reba]

I choose the best for my self! I chose to serve God


[FONT=&quot]Or thank you Lord for saving me a sinner

In regards to this topic i have been where you are Sam, Spent about 30 years there. I understand it is hard to see how humbling it is to realize who we are and who He is. I fail at putting it to words. I know my heart . I see things today the opposite of what i ever thought i would.

Having been on both sides, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I believe we are saved which ever side of this topic we are on.[/FONT]

 

[RoadDebris]

Who agreed with an assessment...

Look, if you don't want to have a rational conversation that's fine, that's your right. But if you do want to converse rationally you can't act like you have no idea what you just said. Here you assert that God made you aware of His assessment of your prior situation:

"At my salvation experience I did not even know the bible,did not come from a christian home, I simply asked God what He wanted me to do,immediately I was engulfed in intense love and God spoke to my mind saying,you must accept My Son as your Saviour. The Lord went on to explain that in my present condition I was headed for hell but I would be saved if I commited my life totally to God and confessed Jesus as my Saviour before the church." - Sam21

Now, again, why did you agree with God's assessment of your state, that you were headed to hell and needed a savior? Others hear this same truth and yet do not accept it? Are you just smarter than them? Wiser? More self-willed? What?

God won me over with love and I said yes,but I almost said no. If I had rejected Christ then I would have made the most foolish mistake a human can make, so I would suppose that anyone who rejects Christ makes the most foolish mistake possible.

Ah, now we're getting at the truth of your theology. You believe you were saved through your own wisdom, while others are damned through their own foolishness. In spite of your condemnation of believers who believe in God's absolute sovereignty, it is you who believe you are saved by your own superiority.

Question for you,why did you chose to believe this egotistical ideology of self exaltation? Is it because you do not want to be responsible for your own actions before God?

I choose to accept God's word because He sovereignly chose to raise me from spiritual death, and He didn't need any help from me to do it.

 

[Sam21]

God does tell us why He chooses the elect.

For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God - 1 Corinthians 1:26-29

As to not reading my Bible, while I'm no theologian I believe I do have a basic understanding of the plot of the New Testament. Peter did lead others to follow the heresy of the Judaizers.

When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, ack and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him inbecause he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw b his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. - Gal. 2:11-13

Sorry Bud,Peter was one of those who opposed the heresy of the Judaizers(read Acts 15), what you are reading was just a momentary slip by association.

 

[Sam21]

Look, if you don't want to have a rational conversation that's fine, that's your right. But if you do want to converse rationally you can't act like you have no idea what you just said. Here you assert that God made you aware of His assessment of your prior situation:

"At my salvation experience I did not even know the bible,did not come from a christian home, I simply asked God what He wanted me to do,immediately I was engulfed in intense love and God spoke to my mind saying,you must accept My Son as your Saviour. The Lord went on to explain that in my present condition I was headed for hell but I would be saved if I commited my life totally to God and confessed Jesus as my Saviour before the church." - Sam21

Now, again, why did you agree with God's assessment of your state, that you were headed to hell and needed a savior? Others hear this same truth and yet do not accept it? Are you just smarter than them? Wiser? More self-willed? What?



Ah, now we're getting at the truth of your theology. You believe you were saved through your own wisdom, while others are damned through their own foolishness. In spite of your condemnation of believers who believe in God's absolute sovereignty, it is you who believe you are saved by your own superiority.



I choose to accept God's word because He sovereignly chose to raise me from spiritual death, and He didn't need any help from me to do it.

You just said,"I chose to accept"that is music to my ears, that is all I wanted to hear, that you did indeed have a choice and by an act of your will you made that choice.l

 

[RoadDebris]

Sorry Bud,Peter was one of those who opposed the heresy of the Judaizers(read Acts 15), what you are reading was just a momentary slip by association.

After Paul called him on the carpet Peter did turn it back around and ultimately helped defeat the Judaizers at the Council of Jerusalem. However, in spite of your assertion, the Bible plainly says that Peter led others astray. My point is that Peter was not chosen because he was some kind of superman. He had many flaws and blew it it big time, many times. In spite of his obvious lack of merit God chose him to be an apostle. That's the way it works.